Hoof balance assessment please

[Marigold4]

where are you? there is an excellent farrier in the SW, Mark Johnson further up country and the one Red recommended. No doubt there are more, we just need to find them. There is one group of trimmers who have a passion for leaving toes long so that doesn't surprise me.

As for a new trimmer/farrier you now know what is wrong with the feet. If you have someone to look at them you know what they should be saying and that they should come up with a plan to correct the feet. It would be reasonable for them to suggest x rays and to trim to the x rays. It will be a slow job and I would guess that you would have to work with them rasping the toe back every week. Anyone who says 2 trims and problem sorted probably hasn't got it.

You would expect them to trim at least monthly and preferably more often for the first few trims.
find some possible trimmers, get a good set of pics and see what they have to say. It is a case of interviewing the trimmers and weeding out the ones who will not start correcting the problem.
Obviously you will then have to move onto the body workers.

barefoot and trimmers have been going now for nearly 20 years and I cannot believe in that time we have a trimmer who didn't recognise long toe/low heel, a farrier who cannot address the issue and a lot of owners who perfectly understand what they are looking at.

It's really disappointing. I specifically employed the farrier for the long toe issue, sent photos, and talked to him about the issue, he said he could see the problem. But they actually look worse than when trimmer was doing them! I think maybe the phots from the ground like this must show a different picture to when they have the hoof in their hand.

 

[Marigold4]

where are you? there is an excellent farrier in the SW, Mark Johnson further up country and the one Red recommended. No doubt there are more, we just need to find them. There is one group of trimmers who have a passion for leaving toes long so that doesn't surprise me.

As for a new trimmer/farrier you now know what is wrong with the feet. If you have someone to look at them you know what they should be saying and that they should come up with a plan to correct the feet. It would be reasonable for them to suggest x rays and to trim to the x rays. It will be a slow job and I would guess that you would have to work with them rasping the toe back every week. Anyone who says 2 trims and problem sorted probably hasn't got it.

You would expect them to trim at least monthly and preferably more often for the first few trims.
find some possible trimmers, get a good set of pics and see what they have to say. It is a case of interviewing the trimmers and weeding out the ones who will not start correcting the problem.
Obviously you will then have to move onto the body workers.

barefoot and trimmers have been going now for nearly 20 years and I cannot believe in that time we have a trimmer who didn't recognise long toe/low heel, a farrier who cannot address the issue and a lot of owners who perfectly understand what they are looking at.

I am on the border of Sussex and Hampshire, not very far from Surrey, if you know anyone

 

[Red-1]

I am on the border of Sussex and Hampshire, not very far from Surrey, if you know anyone

Fiona travels pretty much nationwide.

 

[Marigold4]

Bear in mind, 1 trim wont magically sort this - it’ll take a few trims and allowing the whole hoof to regrow to correct angles - so the farrier who could see the under-run heels and agreed its an issue, cant correct it in just 1 trim. Its a case of taking the distorted pressures off the wall in key places over several trims and watching how the hoof re-grows, then re-adjusting trim etc….its a process.
Not sure if your farrier just did the 1 trim or what you expectations were, so just clarifying the angles take some time to grow better, and takes a few trims. Dont allow long between trims, 4 wks max.

Trouble is, its got worse since farrier's been doing them! He's done two trims

 

[Marigold4]

Fiona travels pretty much nationwide.

I tried to ring her but no reply and no voicemail. I'll try again

 

[Red-1]

I tried to ring her but no reply and no voicemail. I'll try again

That is unusual.

 

[Casey76]

To me the feet are very long in the toe, with a low forward-running heel. I would suspect there is a flat to negative angle on P3.

Having a toe that long on a hind foot is going to significantly effect the locomotion of the whole limb. The delayed breakover can then go on to increase strain on the hocks, stifles and hip.

If can definitely be fixed with sympathetic trimming on a frequent cycle. By putting a hard bevel from toe quarter to toe quarter will bring some immediate relief and decrease the breakover for the foot.

 

[irishdraft]

I am on the border of Sussex and Hampshire, not very far from Surrey, if you know anyone

Yogi Sharp Equine Documentalist may be able to help . He does barefoot and shoeing . Lots of info on FB . He's in Brighton

 

[splashgirl45]

have you spoken to the farrier and asked him what the plan is? as someone else said, its not going to be a quick fix whoever you choose..do you have photos of how they were while the trimmer was doing them so you can compare

 

[ycbm]

Wether these feet can be sorted, ime, depends on whether the horse can be got truly sound on the hind end.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The toes were already long back in Sept last year. They look shorter now than then to me?

Pics in post #8 of thread below.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/anyone-willing-to-assess-these-hooves-please.795298/

 

[Reacher]

I know I sound like a broken record, but Fiona Varian is a magician with feet. I only risked buying Rigsby because I knew she would be able to help. She will also show you how to maintain between trims.

https://www.fluidmovements.co.uk

It is worth having a full body treatment as well as feet, as it is all connected.

Sorry for going off topic but I emailed Fiona a couple of weeks ago and had no response . Perhaps she doesn’t travel ooop north

 

[Red-1]

Sorry for going off topic but I emailed Fiona a couple of weeks ago and had no response . Perhaps she doesn’t travel ooop north

She was around Yorkshire a few weeks ago, she did Rigsby!

She is very busy. You don't book an appointment, you say what generally you can do and she gets back to you with a timeframe and then a slot nearer the time.

ETA - I am going to have to stop recommending her, she will be too busy for Riggers otherwise

 

[HappyHollyDays]

I am on the border of Sussex and Hampshire, not very far from Surrey, if you know anyone

Mark Johnson is my Farrier and I am North Oxfordshire. He does a bit further south than me but probably not as far as you.

 

[Reacher]

Thanks @Red-1 - i might try her again though hopefully only for a once or twice a year tuneup so won’t impact Rigsby!

OP have a look at this book (thanks to @PapaverFollis for the recommendation)
You could easily shorten the toe a little while you wait for the new farrier/trimmer
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Ba...84&hvtargid=pla-569628776389&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

[Marigold4]

The toes were already long back in Sept last year. They look shorter now than then to me?

Pics in post #8 of thread below.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/anyone-willing-to-assess-these-hooves-please.795298/[/

But heel is much lower now?

 

[Marigold4]

Thanks @Red-1 - i might try her again though hopefully only for a once or twice a year tuneup so won’t impact Rigsby!

OP have a look at this book (thanks to @PapaverFollis for the recommendation)
You could easily shorten the toe a little while you wait for the new farrier/trimmer
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Natural-Ba...84&hvtargid=pla-569628776389&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

I actually have this book but am too terrified to trim my hore's feet!

 

[Marigold4]

She was around Yorkshire a few weeks ago, she did Rigsby!

She is very busy. You don't book an appointment, you say what generally you can do and she gets back to you with a timeframe and then a slot nearer the time.

ETA - I am going to have to stop recommending her, she will be too busy for Riggers otherwise

I have had a long chat with her today. Am hoping she may fit me in for a visit

 

[Tiddlypom]

I actually have this book but am too terrified to trim my hore's feet!

^^^ So do I. It's very good.

It explains how to get a shorter toe/higher heel configuration, the opposite of what many trimmers and farriers seem to aspire to . I trimmed my own 3 to this book for 8 months after my good farrier went awol. He was rather impressed with my efforts when he did return to do mine again .

It is easier as a newbie to start off with feet already in the correct balance, though.

 

[TPO]

Wild at Hoof

Hoof Geek

Would use either of these in a heartbeat if they covered my area.

Geography isnt my strong point but I think one of them may be near Surrey (or I could be totally making it up). Eother way worth checking out their websites/fb pages

Agree that the book mentioned is excellent. Definitely my favourite and I feel like I have them all ?

 

[tristar]

it all looks wrong, i am sure this horse will make dramatic improvements

 

[Reacher]

I actually have this book but am too terrified to trim my hore's feet!

If Fiona will show you basics you will soon be trimming in between visits ?

 

[spotty_pony]

No expert but heels look slightly collapsed and toes look long to me.

 

[ycbm]

It isn't very normal for hind feet to go long in the toe and low heel like this. In my experience it's almost always due to pain in the hind end somewhere. This horse has a sore sacroiliac. I suspect x rays will show negative coffin bone angle on at least one foot. It might be a case about being open minded about shoes and shoe with wedges for a short time while the SI is rehabbed, then removing them and rehabbing the feet. Trying to do one without the other may not be successful.
.

 

[Red-1]

It isn't very normal for hind feet to go long in the toe and low heel like this. In my experience it's almost always due to pain in the hind end somewhere. This horse has a sore sacroiliac. I suspect x rays will show negative coffin bone angle on at least one foot. It might be a case about being open minded about shoes and sh
wedges for ashort time while the SI is rehabbed, then removing them and rehabbing the feet. Trying to do one without the other may not be successful.
.

I agree with this, and is one reason I said to have a Cranio treatment as well as hoof trim. They are interconnected. She will do both one the same visit, and you get much better results.

Obviously, Fiona can't fix a broken whatever, but she can certainly unravel compensations and muscular discomfort, hopefully enough to allow the horse to either function better or alternatively reveal the real source of pain.

As I said, she is a magician.

I have personally had treatment (before Covid, as she stopped working on people when that happened) and can personally attest to her unravelling pain and unhelpful habits and compensations.

One time, I had long term tinnitus, cured in one session. I was amazed.

Ribs hurt, sorted in one go.

Hips one high, one low, struggling to ride... When treated, I could not seem to clear the floor with my right foot when I walked. I had got used to carrying one hip so high, once it was down again, the floor felt "too high" on that side. Took 10 minutes before I could walk without fear of tripping.

Anther time, I had stopped pushing off with one foot, once treated, I could only walk in a diagonal line. It was like being drunk! I 'told' my body to walk a straight line and, because I was now pushing evenly after months of compensations, I was off to the side, because my brain was still compensating. even though my body was now straight. Weird feeling.

Magician!

I was so interested in what she could do, I went off to America and qualified as a level 1 Cranio practitioner, only I found that Cranio is not something that can be simply learned, you do also need to be a magician, with X ray specs, which I am not and do not have. Thank goodness for Fiona!

Rigsby is lucky. As was Jay Man.

 

[sbloom]

I think we don't have enough information to make a judgement. They're good side on shots, just a bit low, and the horse isn't likely to be stood with legs 100% vertical. We need cannon bones to be vertical to judge HPA, shots from the front and rear, information on the quality of the digital cushion, and without sole shots it's still only a partial picture.

 

[sbloom]

It isn't very normal for hind feet to go long in the toe and low heel like this. In my experience it's almost always due to pain in the hind end somewhere. This horse has a sore sacroiliac. I suspect x rays will show negative coffin bone angle on at least one foot. It might be a case about being open minded about shoes and shoe with wedges for a short time while the SI is rehabbed, then removing them and rehabbing the feet. Trying to do one without the other may not be successful.
.

It's really common to have broken back HPA in hinds though, witness how many horses camp under behind very slightly. The Equine Documentalist has done a ton of work in this area, though I agree it may well indicate at least mild hind end/postural issues.

 

[ycbm]

It's really common to have broken back HPA in hinds though, witness how many horses camp under behind very slightly. The Equine Documentalist has done a ton of work in this area, though I agree it may well indicate at least mild hind end/postural issues.

I think any horse camping under has a problem, it's not a natural stance at all, for me. It's biomechnically very dubious to look at.
.

 

[sbloom]

I think any horse camping under has a problem, it's not a natural stance at all, for me. It's biomechnically very dubious to look at.
.

Agreed but I'd say the majority of horses I see do it at least mildly.

 

[paddy555]

Mark Johnson is my Farrier and I am North Oxfordshire. He does a bit further south than me but probably not as far as you.

YCBM posted
It isn't very normal for hind feet to go long in the toe and low heel like this. In my experience it's almost always due to pain in the hind end somewhere. This horse has a sore sacroiliac. I suspect x rays will show negative coffin bone angle on at least one foot. It might be a case about being open minded about shoes and shoe with wedges for a short time while the SI is rehabbed, then removing them and rehabbing the feet. Trying to do one without the other may not be successful.

sorry still haven't got the double quotes.

I agree with YCBM. This may need a different approach and a different set of eyes. If this was my horse and I was in your area I would get MJ out even if I had to pay extra to at least give an opinion. (or transport the horse to somewhere where he was working) That doesn't necessarily mean shoe but seeing what was available. That way I would know what the options were.

(His FB page is interesting for anyone not already reading it )