Hoof rehab help

paddy555

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I'm comfortable with the idea of strapping a flat surface to the bottom of the foot to protect from uneven surfaces. But padding up, in my view, is likely to prevent the horse building up the foot it needs to build up by dampening the stimulus needed to make it happen.

my view is totally the opposite. I took several horses BF long before there were usable hoofboots (or at least there was only the easyboot that stayed on for a few yards). I have taken several BF since 2005 when easycare added a gaiter and boots became usable. I have found that booting gets them there faster, they are able to work more as they are comfortable. The back of the foot develops as they are able to move in comfort. If they cannot land comfortably on the heel then the only option is to land on the toe.
If I had another to remove shoes it would be straight on with boots and then further up the line they would come off for short intervals gradually building up.
 
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ycbm

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my view is totally the opposite. I took several horses BF long before there were usable hoofboots (or at least there was only the easyboot that stayed on for a few yards). I have taken several BF since 2005 when easycare added a gaiter and boots became usable. I have found that booting gets them there faster, they are able to work more as they are comfortable. The back of the foot develops as they are able to move in comfort. If they cannot land comfortably on the heel then the only option is to land on the toe.
If I had another to remove shoes it would be straight on with boots and then further up the line they would come off for short intervals gradually building up.


You've just agreed with me Paddy, I think you must have misread my post.

It's only pads i have an issue with.

Unlike Rockley, I think boots can speed up the transition of a sensitive soled horse. I'm using a front pair on my TB at the moment.
 

paddy555

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You've just agreed with me Paddy, I think you must have misread my post.

It's only pads i have an issue with.

Unlike Rockley, I think boots can speed up the transition of a sensitive soled horse. I'm using a front pair on my TB at the moment.


I didn't read "a flat surface" as being a boot. Not sure why. :rolleyes: sorry about that.
 

Michen

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I have always led on the road as I find this changes the foot more quickly than anything else, but I do have quiet roads.

I lead from the offside, so I am between the horse and traffic, and if necessary to start with I have OH following in a car or on a bike. In a car he will take up a lot of road on a 2 way street so oncoming traffic has to slow down, and overtaking traffic has to go wide. On a single track road he can block it so traffic has to stop rather than try to squeeze through.

I seem to recollect you have transport, maybe you could travel 3 X a week to somewhere with a safe tarmac surface t lead on? Can't see that leading him to improve his feet is any less important than a lesson or competition as far as travel goes.

I'm not sure I ever said it was less important? I think my priorities are fairly correct when it comes to this horse given most people would be cracking on eventing right now and certainly wouldn't be bothering/noticing about his hoof landing.

To be honest, one of the reasons I'm so unfussed about Boggle being out of work at the moment is I have very little time. My job is completely manic and I am under a huge amount of pressure, working 6 days a week 12 hours a day currently until our financial year end. So no, at the moment I would not be willing to dedicate that level of time to boxing him out to walk him up and down the roads. We have quiet roads here, but that doesn't mean there are never cars!

Much as I love Bog, he is currently slightly on the backburner somewhat as I focus on the job that enables me to fund him, and even if there hadn't been this issue etc I wouldn't be eventing or training currently because I do not have the time atm.

So I can only do what I can do, and at the moment it may well be better for me for him to sit in the field for another month or so until I have some proper time to dedicate to his feet and him... but I loathe for him to get too fat and feral, so up against it a bit really.

Either way, he's happy, assessed as sound by my vet, and taken care of. Everything else will work itself out I'm sure.
 

Michen

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Oh I’ve just read the other posts... this is interesting. I didn’t realise padding was debatable, just assumed it was simply a case of if the horse seems sore enough to need them then you use them- if not you don’t.

Ycbm what boots are you using?

I’ve just ordered a fitkit for scoot boots but I’m wary about whether they will remain a good fit for changing hooves

I’m leaning more towards just giving him another month or so in the field at the moment though and then see what I have, but I don’t know if that length or time off would be a good thing or not. It would probably help me given I am short on time with work atm... but I don’t like the idea of him getting any porkier.
 

Michen

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I'm comfortable with the idea of strapping a flat surface to the bottom of the foot to protect from uneven surfaces. But padding up, in my view, is likely to prevent the horse building up the foot it needs to build up by dampening the stimulus needed to make it happen.

I thought pads were meant to help stimulate the foot.. now I’m confused😄
 

ycbm

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I'm using Cavallo simples which I bought just in case he needed them as the cheapest option if they just sat in cupboard. . Now it's more obvious that he does, I plan to swap for Renegade Viper, because long term only boots with an articulated heel make mechanical sense to me.

Rockley don't agree with boots at all, they say they prevent transition. But they've never used them. Like Paddy, I've found they they are an enormous help in getting work into horses with thin soles.

In my view, pads slow down the packing of the frog and the build-up of sole callous and digital cushion which you need to happen. Why would the horse build digital cushion if you're giving him one, and how can it build callous if you are cushioning the sole? That's my reasoning, anyway. I would use pads only in a horse which was sore in boots without them, but I wouldn't be exercising a horse that sore anyway.

Hope that helps.
 
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Red-1

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I'm not sure I ever said it was less important? I think my priorities are fairly correct when it comes to this horse given most people would be cracking on eventing right now and certainly wouldn't be bothering/noticing about his hoof landing.

To be honest, one of the reasons I'm so unfussed about Boggle being out of work at the moment is I have very little time. My job is completely manic and I am under a huge amount of pressure, working 6 days a week 12 hours a day currently until our financial year end. So no, at the moment I would not be willing to dedicate that level of time to boxing him out to walk him up and down the roads. We have quiet roads here, but that doesn't mean there are never cars!

Much as I love Bog, he is currently slightly on the backburner somewhat as I focus on the job that enables me to fund him, and even if there hadn't been this issue etc I wouldn't be eventing or training currently because I do not have the time atm.

So I can only do what I can do, and at the moment it may well be better for me for him to sit in the field for another month or so until I have some proper time to dedicate to his feet and him... but I loathe for him to get too fat and feral, so up against it a bit really.

Either way, he's happy, assessed as sound by my vet, and taken care of. Everything else will work itself out I'm sure.

Oh, OK, that kind of changes things. I thought you were looking for the quickest way to improve his landing, and IMO yes they do have to be comfortable, but most are comfortable being led on a flat, smooth surface, yet that surface is the best to help gently remodel. 2 birds with one gentle stone.

I didn't say you thought it was unimportant, merely said what I did about travel as many people would not consider travel to walk a horse out. I know I certainly had surprise when I travelled a 3 1/2 hour round trip to paddle Jay in the sea when his legs swelled up. Most people presumed I was near the sea, no, it was just that I have transport and the sea was the best treatment for filled legs, so to the sea we went.

As I thought you had only 8 weeks barefoot ideally, then you were more likely to achieve a significant improvement under optimum remodelling circumstances - walking in hand on smooth tarmac (or a "Council Trim" as it is also known LOL).

I had not realised that you would not be eventing anyway and that he was on the back burner due to work commitments. In that case I would either turn away (as he has been lame) or walk out under saddle with boots so he is a bit fitter to crack on again. The ground is going to harden up so he will get some stimulation from being turned out, but with the photo of his sole I would also run a rasp a couple of times a week if he is not walking out barefoot as the field won't do the trimming.
 

paddy555

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ycbm, I haven't heard the comment about mechanical and the artic heel of renegades before. Would you mind giving a bit more reasoning and saying why you think that is better than say the glove, scoot or something like cavallo/old mac type boots?
I have used renegades a lot and they are a very good boot so I am not knocking them at all just interested. Thanks.
 

Michen

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Oh, OK, that kind of changes things. I thought you were looking for the quickest way to improve his landing, and IMO yes they do have to be comfortable, but most are comfortable being led on a flat, smooth surface, yet that surface is the best to help gently remodel. 2 birds with one gentle stone.

I didn't say you thought it was unimportant, merely said what I did about travel as many people would not consider travel to walk a horse out. I know I certainly had surprise when I travelled a 3 1/2 hour round trip to paddle Jay in the sea when his legs swelled up. Most people presumed I was near the sea, no, it was just that I have transport and the sea was the best treatment for filled legs, so to the sea we went.

As I thought you had only 8 weeks barefoot ideally, then you were more likely to achieve a significant improvement under optimum remodelling circumstances - walking in hand on smooth tarmac (or a "Council Trim" as it is also known LOL).

I had not realised that you would not be eventing anyway and that he was on the back burner due to work commitments. In that case I would either turn away (as he has been lame) or walk out under saddle with boots so he is a bit fitter to crack on again. The ground is going to harden up so he will get some stimulation from being turned out, but with the photo of his sole I would also run a rasp a couple of times a week if he is not walking out barefoot as the field won't do the trimming.

Thanks :) apologies- grumpy/tired and defensive. Good thing the sun is out and I intend to not open my laptop all day today!



Looks like the landing is now pretty flat (video taken this am), so I’m pleased with this.. unless you guys tell me this is toe first!! His feet look awful though, so jagged and a total mess tbh. If he continues to land flat I think I’m fairly comfortable riding him properly out on the roads?

Need to see how the next week or two pans out with work etc and make a plan. DA18F32F-BC96-48BC-A331-DF1627DE5621.png
 

ycbm

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ycbm, I haven't heard the comment about mechanical and the artic heel of renegades before. Would you mind giving a bit more reasoning and saying why you think that is better than say the glove, scoot or something like cavallo/old mac type boots?
I have used renegades a lot and they are a very good boot so I am not knocking them at all just interested. Thanks.


My reasoning is that the horses foot articulates, so it makes senses to me to have a boot with a joint at the heel that can swivel when the horse bends the joints in its foot. If it doesn't, you are relying on the flexibility of the boot material to cope with all the movement between the hoof and the pastern. Inevitably that must mean they can't be fitted as tight, or that the material must be softer, like the neoprene collars on Gloves, and less durable.

Boots which don't articulate all 'clomp' as the horse moves, to my ears, and change the action, to my eyes. They also often swivel in use, an issue I have slightly with my TB in Cavallo simples.

I've not used Renegades, because I've not needed boots since they came out, but I've seen them in use on a horse I meet out walking, and they look to me as if they reduce the 'clomp' effect and allow the horse to use its feet as naturally as is possible.

It just makes so much sense to me that if the horse is jointed, the boot needs to be as well.



.
 

Red-1

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When my current horse went barefoot for 6 months from October, she didn't need boots, starting with walking in hand then ridden, then competing dressage and BS. But, with Jay he did need boots and I know that there was movement at the heel as they rubbed him.

I tried all sorts to stop heel rub, the Cavallo ones were worse, but the Gloves also rubbed. I had to do half the ride booted, then get off and remove them and go the rest of the way in-hand.

Yes, I tried smaller/bigger and socks that were neoprene and wool. There was movement at his heel so they rubbed. If he had stayed barefoot then we would have gone for an articulated boot as in my mind that would have meant the movement was in the boot so the parts that met his feet/coronet would have remained still.
 

paddy555

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My reasoning is that the horses foot articulates, so it makes senses to me to have a boot with a joint at the heel that can swivel when the horse bends the joints in its foot. If it doesn't, you are relying on the flexibility of the boot material to cope with all the movement between the hoof and the pastern. Inevitably that must mean they can't be fitted as tight, or that the material must be softer, like the neoprene collars on Gloves, and less durable.

Boots which don't articulate all 'clomp' as the horse moves, to my ears, and change the action, to my eyes. They also often swivel in use, an issue I have slightly with my TB in Cavallo simples.

I've not used Renegades, because I've not needed boots since they came out, but I've seen them in use on a horse I meet out walking, and they look to me as if they reduce the 'clomp' effect and allow the horse to use its feet as naturally as is possible.

It just makes so much sense to me that if the horse is jointed, the boot needs to be as well.



.

thanks for all that. I agree about clomp. I hate the clomp boots. They just don't work. I would never use them. I can see where you are coming from.
I have just tried getting horses walking around the yard in a scoot, a renegade and a glove.
The glove has free movement of the joints. The old gaiters were dreadful and expensive. The problem to my mind is eliminated by the 2016 gaiters which are much more durable, easier to clean and very flexible.
The scoot allowed free movement of all joints. It was very easy to see as the back is open.
The renegade to my mind was the worst. I see the articulation point however when on the horse the bottom strap is tight and the boot tended more towards the clomp style. If the bottom strap was a lot slacker I can see there would be articulation around the joint in the boot but the boot would come off. When the bottom strap is tightened it becomes more of of a "rigid" affair. I have tried riding in renegades with the bottom strap looser. They may have been OK walking on the road but the minute I started trotting over rough moorland they needed tightening. I see on the renegade site they rode in them with no tension in the bottom strap. If I did that they would have been sucked off in a bog or a river crossing or even through rocks.
Just my thoughts. Would be interested in other conclusions.
 

ycbm

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Very interesting, thanks Paddy.

It sounds like the Renegade articulation isnt activating in real use. Which boots would you recommend now? Have you seen the new Fury Heart?
 

paddy555

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Michen, I find if you decide to boot a horse you have to stick to it. Firstly you need to work on feet which are trimmed and which are kept in trim. Boots, or at least the good riding boots, fit snugly, If you wanted to use something like cavallos or old macs it would not matter as much as there is more leeway but they are not a boot I would like to use on a ridden horse.
Based on your situation however he landed I would not ride properly on the roads without boots. Even if you could hand walk on roads etc and were going to transition to barefoot I would still boot to ride him out.

There is nothing to stop you trimming his feet, getting boots and riding only occasionally and keeping his feet trimmed in between. I tried the fit kit for the scoots and couldn't get it to work. I always buy a couple of pairs of scoots and send the wrong size back. When you have put them on and fasten up the front straps it I found it made a lot of difference.
 

paddy555

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Very interesting, thanks Paddy.

It sounds like the Renegade articulation isnt activating in real use. Which boots would you recommend now? Have you seen the new Fury Heart?

I haven't seen them and they may well turn out to be a very good boot. I like the idea of a boot that extends lengthwise as you fit. With boots such as the scoot with a rigid back you are stuck with the length and how the back fits depends on the shape of the heel bulbs. If you could extend the length to get the back to fit the bulbs of that particular horse it would be a lot better. Before deciding on the furys (either sort) I would trawl every page you can about user opinions. I have watched and used new styles of easycare boots over the years and there are always niggles and then improvements.

Scoots are good, cheaper, easy to clean and seem to have a good SH market if all goes wrong. Good grip on wet grass. They do a slim fitting so lots of choice to get a good fit, they are light and horses seem to go well in them. I have found wear wise they lasted the longest. Downside would be they are flexible and the soles are thinner and flexible. Walking on grit on tarmac no problem but trotting over stones may depend on the quality of the horses' sole. I have 4 scoots on my 4yo. I started using them when I started seriously walking in hand and riding. I have no school and school on a harsh quarry stone area so didn't want to risk any problems. He won't really need them once he is out and about but they have been great.

Gloves with the better gaiters do very well, easy to get on and I cannot find anything bad to say about them, last well on the roads, grip not quite as good as scoots or rennies.

Absolutely nothing wrong with rennies. I don't think they articulate in the way you hope but still good boots.. I found wear on the classics poor, very poor. Gloves outlasted them by about 3 times. Vipers have better wear I believe.

You could get fit kits for vipers, gloves and a couple of scoots (not fit kits) and see which you like. Wouldn't cost much and one of them may become obvious.
 

ycbm

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Great stuff Paddy, thanks so much for writing all that.

I'm going to have to wait a while I think. I measured him today. A few weeks back, no more than six, he was 140 X 140 and today he is 130 long by 140 wide, but with an inch still to come off from flaring when he was shod. I think he's going to come back to 130 X 130 and I daren't buy more boots until I know. Quite attracted by the Fury Slings at the moment, but if he settles to a size that fits another boot I'd rather not have the sole extending behind the end of the heel like the Furys seem to have.

.
 

paddy555

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Great stuff Paddy, thanks so much for writing all that.

I'm going to have to wait a while I think. I measured him today. A few weeks back, no more than six, he was 140 X 140 and today he is 130 long by 140 wide, but with an inch still to come off from flaring when he was shod. I think he's going to come back to 130 X 130 and I daren't buy more boots until I know. Quite attracted by the Fury Slings at the moment, but if he settles to a size that fits another boot I'd rather not have the sole extending behind the end of the heel like the Furys seem to have.

.

if he comes back to 130 x 130 I am pretty sure he will fit a 3 in the furies. I don't think from your length measurement the heel will extend behind the boot, in fact I don't think you will have to extend the length very much at all. The length measurement of the Furies seems very long but that is only when extended. ie for narrow but long feet.
One of mine is 140 x 140 and goes well in size 4 gloves. You wouldn't think he would from his measurements but they are a perfect fit as are scoots and renegades. You should have lots of choice with your eventual size.
 

Ceriann

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You've just agreed with me Paddy, I think you must have misread my post.

It's only pads i have an issue with.

Unlike Rockley, I think boots can speed up the transition of a sensitive soled horse. I'm using a front pair on my TB at the moment.

When you say pads do you mean boot pads. I’m using boots with pads for mine occasionally when I think the surface might be more testing.
 

Ceriann

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When you say pads do you mean boot pads. I’m using boots with pads for mine occasionally when I think the surface might be more testing.

Ignore me - I’ve finished reading the posts! Thank you. Interesting read re all the boots. Very helpful for my transitioning programme.
 

Michen

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Update for anyone interested. We now have a consistent heel first landing but on the other hand he’s gone footy on stones. Nothing tragic just a bit “gimpy” on really horrid ones on a hard surface. Got some hoof Armor to try and have fitted him for some scoot boots.

In a catch 22 with the roadwork, the shortest amount I can do on a circular route is 30 mins worth which seems too much to begin with. I really don’t want to get in the habit of him turning around, he used to be very nappy and although he’s not done it in years, he’s sharp as a knife at the moment and in that difficult phase of still being quite fit but not in proper work to keep him under the thumb a little... lots of hairy moments and getting very lit up at the faintest sign of something “potentially exciting”. I have my work cut out for me at the moment..I forgot what a pain in the arse he could be.

I’ve mainly been hacking around the big field which is 30 mins but guess I’ll crack on when I have the boots, or see if hoof Armor will make 30 mins of road work ok straight away.
 

Melody Grey

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Update for anyone interested. We now have a consistent heel first landing but on the other hand he’s gone footy on stones. Nothing tragic just a bit “gimpy” on really horrid ones on a hard surface. Got some hoof Armor to try and have fitted him for some scoot boots.

In a catch 22 with the roadwork, the shortest amount I can do on a circular route is 30 mins worth which seems too much to begin with. I really don’t want to get in the habit of him turning around, he used to be very nappy and although he’s not done it in years, he’s sharp as a knife at the moment and in that difficult phase of still being quite fit but not in proper work to keep him under the thumb a little... lots of hairy moments and getting very lit up at the faintest sign of something “potentially exciting”. I have my work cut out for me at the moment..I forgot what a pain in the arse he could be.

I’ve mainly been hacking around the big field which is 30 mins but guess I’ll crack on when I have the boots, or see if hoof Armor will make 30 mins of road work ok straight away.

Can you split your circular route up into 15 mins in hand and then get on for the last 15? Might not seem to much then?
 

palo1

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Oh I’ve just read the other posts... this is interesting. I didn’t realise padding was debatable, just assumed it was simply a case of if the horse seems sore enough to need them then you use them- if not you don’t.

Ycbm what boots are you using?

I’ve just ordered a fitkit for scoot boots but I’m wary about whether they will remain a good fit for changing hooves

I’m leaning more towards just giving him another month or so in the field at the moment though and then see what I have, but I don’t know if that length or time off would be a good thing or not. It would probably help me given I am short on time with work atm... but I don’t like the idea of him getting any porkier.


In my experience padding is useful where a horse has a seriously thin sole but that padding needs to be the right sort and only used for a limited time as it's effect is quite specific and not long lasting: it provides protection and a little bit of stimulation. Ordinarily however, what you are looking for to develop the hoof and horse's comfort is multiple surfaces - some of which will impact firmly on the sole of the foot in order to 'work' it. Tarmac is good but only for trimming the hoof wall in my experience: if you have any sort of concavity at all, tarmac will not help to develop the underside of the hoof though it will strengthen the hoof wall as the repeated landings/impact cause the hoof wall tubules to compact making for structural strength. I made this mistake with a horse a few years ago and it took an experienced trimmer to explain that I needed less 'trimming' of the hoof wall and more work on the underside of the foot. You have said that Boggle has good thick soles which is good so he may not need to work his soles but possibly needs more heel strength. Frustratingly at this time of year that is harder as the ground is currently hard so not comforming to the underside of the hoof and working on uneven ground may be uncomfortable on his heels/digital cushion. Arena surfaces can help with this though and limited work across all surfaces to the horse's comfort would also help. If you are using boots you will provide some protection but not a long term workout for underside of the hoof/digitial cushion though as you don't plan to stay barefoot permanently boots will be your friend in the current situation! Not sure why Hoof Armor would be helpful if Boggle has good soles - will probably do no harm but it is quite expensive! It would be helpful if Boggle could explain exactly which bit of his feet is not quite as strong as they should be!! I have had to deal with horses with thin soles and weak digital cushions and hoof wall problems: they all need similar but slightly different kinds of work in my experience!
 

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Really impressed with the scoots so far. Arrived, went for an hour hack with a tiny bit of trotting and no issues, no rubbing (yet). Seem great- I’m contemplating whether I’d get away with autumn hunting on Salisbury plain with them (turfy grass but some really rough tracks in between).

Hmmm!
 

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In my experience padding is useful where a horse has a seriously thin sole but that padding needs to be the right sort and only used for a limited time as it's effect is quite specific and not long lasting: it provides protection and a little bit of stimulation. Ordinarily however, what you are looking for to develop the hoof and horse's comfort is multiple surfaces - some of which will impact firmly on the sole of the foot in order to 'work' it. Tarmac is good but only for trimming the hoof wall in my experience: if you have any sort of concavity at all, tarmac will not help to develop the underside of the hoof though it will strengthen the hoof wall as the repeated landings/impact cause the hoof wall tubules to compact making for structural strength. I made this mistake with a horse a few years ago and it took an experienced trimmer to explain that I needed less 'trimming' of the hoof wall and more work on the underside of the foot. You have said that Boggle has good thick soles which is good so he may not need to work his soles but possibly needs more heel strength. Frustratingly at this time of year that is harder as the ground is currently hard so not comforming to the underside of the hoof and working on uneven ground may be uncomfortable on his heels/digital cushion. Arena surfaces can help with this though and limited work across all surfaces to the horse's comfort would also help. If you are using boots you will provide some protection but not a long term workout for underside of the hoof/digitial cushion though as you don't plan to stay barefoot permanently boots will be your friend in the current situation! Not sure why Hoof Armor would be helpful if Boggle has good soles - will probably do no harm but it is quite expensive! It would be helpful if Boggle could explain exactly which bit of his feet is not quite as strong as they should be!! I have had to deal with horses with thin soles and weak digital cushions and hoof wall problems: they all need similar but slightly different kinds of work in my experience!
Mine is 15 weeks into barefoot transition - walking well in hand for a good 30-40 minutes but remains footy on stones, chippings etc. I put boots on for some walks (cavallos and pads) but mainly barefoot. She has thin flat soles so we are always going to struggle getting her completely barefoot for hacking and as we are rehabbing a left hind branch injury the school is out to stimulate sole. Any ideas of hoof pads don’t do this?
 

palo1

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Mine is 15 weeks into barefoot transition - walking well in hand for a good 30-40 minutes but remains footy on stones, chippings etc. I put boots on for some walks (cavallos and pads) but mainly barefoot. She has thin flat soles so we are always going to struggle getting her completely barefoot for hacking and as we are rehabbing a left hind branch injury the school is out to stimulate sole. Any ideas of hoof pads don’t do this?

There are some excellent deep, thick pads that have a degree of 'spring' in them that stimulate soles. I had to use these for a month with a horse that had frighteningly thin soles. (Vet asked for carpet to be laid down to walk him 10 yards back into his stable at diagnosis). Initially vet prescribed box rest for 3 weeks and sugardine bandages on the front feet for 1-2 weeks. After that I was able to start proper rehab with boots and pads. I seem to remember getting the pads from equine podiatry supplies or similar: they are super-thick and initially I had a job to get them in the boots but they squished down quite quickly. As I said, I used these for a month, then cautiously began work in hand and under saddle on grass and any other surface I could find (no school involved!) once a week without boots and pads, then twice a week etc. The thing that was a complete game-changer though was this rehab alongside a very high spec mineral balancer. It made such an enormous difference that after another 6 months I had a forage test then made up a bespoke mineral mix. 8 years on from this, horse is always unshod and has fabulous, all terrain soles! I could ride over anything with him without causing bruising or discomfort after a few months (post pads/rehab etc). The reality is that he will still feel a sharp stone occasionally but does not take lame steps or come home bruised. It is worth the time and effort to get the feet right. :)
 
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