Hoof X-rays: continue barefoot or put shoes back on?

ponyparty

ponyparty

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A brief history:

Had B’s shoes pulled in January.
After a couple of trims by an EP, which in my opinion took too much off and left him footy, I switched to a different trimmer. Very happy with this trimmer – they’re due out tomorrow. He is fine (to my eye) on soft surfaces and smooth tarmac, but footy on stony tracks/gravel still. I was expecting better than this, 5 months in, and always said from the start that if his transition is taking too long and he's uncomfortable, then I am not averse to putting shoes back on. His comfort is most important to me.

This week I had B’s back X-rayed – spinous processes close together (see other thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...roiliac-pain-(-trying-not-to-assume-the-worst! )
Had a laminitis scare last week too so got them to X-ray his front feet whilst he was there, and also to see what's going on with the barefoot transition.

I haven't had the written report from the vet yet - I have spoken to him, but I was in the car and my mobile reception kept breaking up, plus he has a strong Italian accent so I struggled to understand him a bit too! The general gist is, he thinks B needs shoes back on because his feet are so flat that he is always going to struggle with stony surfaces. He said he has slight navicular in the off fore, which he recommended remedial shoeing for, and I'm sure he said something else too but I'm struggling to remember now. The report should be winging its way over to me soon, so I'll have a full update then.

I'm going to ask my trimmer tomorrow (he's a fully qualified farrier too and will be honest if he thinks a horse needs shoes back on).

So - any hoof experts out there want to have a look at the X-rays?
What would you do in my situation?

I'm leaning towards having shoes put back on, I can't stand seeing my horse uncomfortable - I do have boots, but they're not always practical, e.g. the slightest bit of rain and the clay mud goes so sticky it pulls boots off. I really need his way of going to be correct, for the rehab of his back - if he's stepping short, trying to protect his feet, his back muscles are not going to be used correctly.

His hooves have come a long way from where they were in January but the fact he's still footy now - and bearing in mind there are no livery yards geared up to barefoot round by me - I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle and that shoeing is the most ethical thing I can do for my horse, to make sure he's not in discomfort.
 
Hi, as you know I tried too but I've put the shoes back on. In your situation I'd be doing the same, perhaps in future years once you and your horse are up and running and fine in all respects it could be worth revisiting, but currently you seem to have too many variables for it to work out.
 
The way of going of a footy horse does effect everything else, that's not debatable so although I think it is early days to resolve the flatness I think shoes are worthy of consideration.

How is he on a hard ground field, because I would say at the moment that is probably what matters as where he is spending the majority of his time? If he is ok there and is ok on flat tarmac I'd be less keen to shoe, but only you know how he is (it did take F a long time to be anywhere near ok on stones, but we didn't need to do them so they could either be avoided or booted for, not everyone can do that).

Now I do think it is important to say that not all shoes are equal, I'm always forgetting the name but there is a nice half shoe half pad combination that I know Ihatework used with success- so it still allows the back of the hoof to work properly and become more optimal but provides protection for the rest.
 
If there is navicular I would be cautious about shoes as they could make things worse.

It takes more than five months to grow a whole hoof and plenty of shod horses are a bit gimpy on stones so don't panic too much. If he is comfy in the field and the school as well as on smooth tarmac I think I would press on (providing your trimmer agrees).

What boots do you have? Would it be worth investing in some different ones and using them more often? I have ridden in some pretty muddy conditions in boots without losing them so you might be able to get a better more secure fit.

I spent months with my horse never leaving the stable without boots and pads while we were transitioning her. She also had flat feet (as well as thin soles and negative rotation of the pedal bone). After a while she was sound enough to hunt barefoot. Getting the diet right and getting comfortable movement into them can help flat feet (pads in boots can help more than just boots so if you have boots that will take a pad try some EPS pads in them)

Also consider things like glue on glove shells and hoof armour. Not something I have experience of but worth talking to your farrier about. The weather conditions recently have been really tough for barefoot so you have my sympathy.
 
Thanks for all your replies! I'm so torn. On one hand - need to get his back right - just got the vet report through, Grade 1 Kissing Spines between T17-T18. Should I just bang shoes on in the short term so he's moving correctly? It's not the barefoot that's caused this however, as in hindsight he was already displaying signs of it before I took his shoes off in January. But I would imagine it hasn't helped... On the other hand, navicular + shoes might not be such a great idea either.

Here is what the vet report says about his feet:

"Findings: mild bilateral distal interphalangeal (coffin) joint osteoarthritis, mild bilateral navicular bone disease,
decreased right front pedal bone palmar angle ( 1-2 °), decreased depth of the sole bilaterally"

Deffo going to see what farrier says tomorrow - I hadn't heard of those boots ester, or glue on glove shells and hoof armour?! Kat - I'll have to investigate. My trimmer should know more. The first time he came out to me, he mentioned a new spray-on foam pad which can help protect the soles - he was so incredibly sore back then though, he didn't want to try something new and unproven on B (as he hadn't used the stuff yet) in case it exacerbated the situation. I'll ask him about it tomorrow, and potentially boots with pads etc.
 
The spray on pad might be hoof armour that sounds like a way of describing it!

The glue on gloves are the easy boot glove boots but they can I believe be glued on in certain cases. I think there might be other glue on boots now but I haven't looked into that kind of thing. I am just looking to replace my ancient worn out cavallos!

I would really really recommend the 4lb eps pads inside a suitable boot they made my mare comfortable when shoes couldn't. The vet was gob smacked!
 
Very useful advice, thank you. Will be sure to let you know what the farrier says tomorrow!
There's got to be another solution for him other than shoes...
 
Oh and Kat - I have Cavallo Entry Level boots. They pull off ever so easily in the field, or in the thick clay mud we have around here. I was booting for turnout as we kept gettinf frost and our fields were so poached, it was really uncomfortable for him.
I'm not actually riding him at the moment (haven't done since January) so he'd be booted only for either walking out or turnout if the ground gets really hard.
He is comfortable in the field as far as I can tell, he is happy to have a canter and hoon around when turned out anyway.
Diet-wise he's on Thunderbrooks Healthy Herbal Muesli and Daily Essentials balancer. He was on haylage but since lami scare is on soaked hay.
Will deffo update you with what farrier says tomorrow, thank you all for your replies!
I guess it's good timing being pregnant - plenty of time to get him right, and then hopefully it won't be too long post-baby before I can hop back on..! Fingers crossed, anyway. Trying so hard to stay positive.
 
I'm not sure I'd be keen to glue on gloves, as a gloves fan, afaik they are most usually glued on for endurance rides (as are the flip flops and the love child (not sure if that one came out officially!). I've not seen them used with any sort of antibac compression material to prevent frog mankiness as you wouldn't be able to get to it.

Personally I would like to think that there is a better happy medium than just sticking bar shoes and wedges on ;). (FWIW I did tell someone else with KS to just shoe the other week, but that horse had been operated on and the post op rehab was IMO far more important then).

hoof armour isn't foam, its more of an epoxy resin/glue type thing- quite a few trimmers are using it over here now though and people seem to find it useful for helping the sole thicken and increasing comfort.
 
It is worth pointing out that some do not find the daily essentials great, I'm trying to remember but I think it doesn't have as much copper and zinc as some of the other options.

how well do the cavallos fit, do they twist if you try? Ive had both simples and sports on while poulticing in silly deep sticky mud mid winter and never had one come off but there would also be other options.

Fwiw Frank seems to have reverted to type with his flat soles with lack of work, bloomin horses!
 
You didn't say in the OP that you weren't riding....

That changes my answer, if he is comfy in the field then leave his shoes off so his feet get a break..

Fiona
 
I don't know the ELB I have simples and will buy another pair (they seem cheapest and the last pair lasted well) but they never came off even in deep mud. I wonder if you could get away with a smaller size, or pad them a bit to make them a bit more snug (try the EPS pads).

I wouldn't shoe if you are pregnant and not riding.
 
ponyparty said:
Very useful advice, thank you. Will be sure to let you know what the farrier says tomorrow!
There's got to be another solution for him other than shoes...
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There is. Stop having him trimmed. Leave him to grow the foot he needs. Recalibrate your view of how a hoof should look. It's not about it looking symmetrical and conventionally pleasing to the eye - it's about it being functional. If he were mine, I'd get the best hoof supplement into him, get the sugar content in his diet as low as possible, invest in new (better) hoof boots, exercise him as much as possible and go at least 3 months, if not longer, without trimming. I bet you find he's not as footy on this regime. If you put shoes on him, all the problems you have now will still be there - you will just be masking them, at best. Have you heard of Rockley Farm btw?
 
Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?. And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
There is. Stop having him trimmed. Leave him to grow the foot he needs. Recalibrate your view of how a hoof should look. It's not about it looking symmetrical and conventionally pleasing to the eye - it's about it being functional. If he were mine, I'd get the best hoof supplement into him, get the sugar content in his diet as low as possible, invest in new (better) hoof boots, exercise him as much as possible and go at least 3 months, if not longer, without trimming. I bet you find he's not as footy on this regime. If you put shoes on him, all the problems you have now will still be there - you will just be masking them, at best. Have you heard of Rockley Farm btw?
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This //
 
ycbm said:
Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?. And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.
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Why do you say that? Frank was still very flat soled and not 100% on flat tarmac up to the 6 month point, he needed to be booted for all roadwork. OP says hers is ok on flat tarmac and it's just stones that are an issue and when people say that I do think it is very hard to judge comfort without seeing them.

(btw that is a question not a challenge as I know you have transitioned many more than I have!)

OP iirc you were working him, when did that stop? I am wondering if that isn't helping.
 
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Some horses take longer than others, for sure. But any horse these days still uncomfortable at five months and on a good diet, I would recommend a Cushings test, because so many of them are being found at much younger ages than we used to expect it.
 
ycbm said:
Are you feeding a no iron, no manganese, high copper supplement?. And have you removed all added sugars from his diet?

This transition is taking far too long. If you have his feed right I would suggest testing for Cushings.
Click to expand...

I would expect a transition to take this long if there are issues in other parts of the body - that's why I'm really not keen on putting shoes on for rehab because you lose the most (for me) indicative sign of how the body is developing, and you restrict the ability of the hoof to change shape and angles to adapt to a different posture and way of going. I'd much rather use a removable type of protection if the horse is a bit tender on its feet.
Reading massively between the lines so I may be way off the mark, this horse doesn't sound like to hoof quality is poor, just that the angles/shape are a bit out of whack...?
 
I can’t remember if I’ve seen any hoof pics for this one, I usually remember if I have.

I do think it can be very chicken and egg, I persisted as he was hoof lame but frank certainly got quite posturally sore while we were getting the hooves sorted and needed quite a bit of regular body work to keep him comfy.
Interestingly now several years later we are in a potentially similar position.
 
DabDab said:
I would expect a transition to take this long if there are issues in other parts of the body - that's why I'm really not keen on putting shoes on for rehab because you lose the most (for me) indicative sign of how the body is developing, and you restrict the ability of the hoof to change shape and angles to adapt to a different posture and way of going. I'd much rather use a removable type of protection if the horse is a bit tender on its feet.
Reading massively between the lines so I may be way off the mark, this horse doesn't sound like to hoof quality is poor, just that the angles/shape are a bit out of whack...?
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Perhaps I should clarify. I would not expect a horse with a decent diet still to be sore on minor stones at five months. Other issues with its body may mean it's not sound, but should not mean that it still has thin soles. And while some might well take that long or longer, I would always test for Cushings if that happens because it's proving to be so incredibly common.
 
Thanks for all of your replies. I'm going to try and answer all the questions, apologies if I miss any - do ask again. It's so hard to get everything into an initial post without making it into (even more of) an essay, and more questions always come up anyway.

He has been tested for Cushings and EMS last week - both came back negative.

He is on a small amount of Thunderbrook Healthy Herbal Muesli and Daily Essentials balancer. I did have him on Forageplus, but he stopped eating it very quickly and wouldn't touch his feed if it had even a tiny sprinkle in it. Fussy beggar. I'd rather him be eating the correct amount of a decent (if not THE best) balancer, than none at all because he refuses to eat it.
He was on haylage until recent lami scare, and now is on soaked hay.
He was out overnight without a muzzle, now he's on restricted turnout muzzled, until I'm confident he won't get his muzzle off. Then he'll go out overnight, but from quite late - 8.30-9pm.

I have heard of Rockley Farm and have been in contact with Nic, and am considering asking my vet for a referral as I'm concerned about his feet taking so long to recover. Whether they would refer me is another question...

I am aware that trimming is not essential, the main reason I have been having trimmers out is to get a qualified professional to look at his feet and give me their advice and opinion. My current trimmer does not take any off unless he sees a need; he has not made Bruce sore with trimming. I'm new to barefoot and being on a livery yard where most people have shod horses, I find it helpful to have a professional's opinion to reassure me and back me up.

Unfortunately my farrier/trimmer was taken ill this weekend and is in hospital, so hasn't seen Bruce. Will just have to wait for him to get better - his feet are by no means in a bad state, they don't really need trimming - some walking out on the road will sort them out. I mainly wanted to see him to discuss treatment options for the issues revealed by the X rays.

I have indeed been working Bruce - walking out on the lanes in hand, groundwork and some lunging. I stopped this last week due to the laminitis scare, as the vet said not to do anything that may cause concussion. I have the all clear now to go ahead but as he's currently on restricted turnout until we get to grips with the grazing muzzle (he is adept at removing them!!) he's erm a bit "bright" shall we say...! So not ideal for walking the lanes as he's sharp and spooky at the best of times!

I have noticed since he's been in/on restricted turnout that his hoof wall has grown down, he was self trimming nicely before. I'm sure this will chip off after a few walks out in hand though.

I am waiting on two bits to try from the Bit Bank and his Equi-Ami to be delivered, and am also getting him booked in for steroid injections for this week for his back. So exercise will be resumed very soon. Walking out in hand can resume whenever really, it's just he's being a bit of a **** to lead out because he's so fresh from being cooped up.

I will take some pics of his feet later when I go to bring him in - fingers crossed the grazing muzzle is still in place! I have photos of his feet from way back when I first took the shoes off, up until a few months ago. I was blogging about our journey together but as we keep hitting brick wall after brick wall, and I've been so busy, and pregnant (!) I've let that slip. Plus I don't want to blog about it, until I have some good news :( it was just getting too depressing!
 
If your horse is lame on surfaces that you want to work him on you need to protect his feet with boots, shoes, or other - or avoid working the horse on said surfaces- you wouldn't walk yourself down stoney surfaces to harden your own feet.
 
SusieT said:
you wouldn't walk yourself down stoney surfaces to harden your own feet.
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How else do you think barefoot runners and people all around the world who don't wear shoes do it? How do you think bricklayers get the callouses they need on their hands unless they handle bricks? I heard a country singer on Vintage earlier this evening that she works to rebuild the callouses she needs on her fingers to play the guitar before a tour starts.

The key is only to do as much as the horse can cope with.
 
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