Hoof X-rays: continue barefoot or put shoes back on?

I'm only working him on flat tarmac, and the arena surface. He seems fine on both.
He does have to go over stony surfaces to get to the arena or turnout, I've been just letting him pick his own way over it. Maybe I should boot for this... But last time he saw him, my trimmer advised me to just let him get on with it, pick his way and eventually he'll be ok. Also, if I always boot, how will I know if there's any improvement or deterioration? But obviously want him to be comfortable so might boot him for it, for now, whilst we get him back right. I'm also going to boot him next time I lunge him and see if there's any difference in his way of going.

I didn't take photos last night because when I got to the yard, the muzzle was still in place! He was happily grazing so I have left him out overnight, just hope to god he kept it on. Nervously awaiting a text from the yard phone! I will get the pics tonight and post a comparison of week 1 and now.
 
I would ask the vet for a TRH test. We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time. Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done. That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit. She was immediately put onto Prascend.
 
Interesting Pearl - I didn't realise there were different tests that could be done. I'll give the vets a buzz later on today and discuss with the one who took his bloods.
Also want to discuss Rockley with the vet who has advised he has shoes back on. The more I've discussed it over the weekend, the less inclined I am to want to put shoes back on. Really need my trimmer to get well so I can get his opinion on this! (Well, I want him to get well either way, horse's feet or not!)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would ask the vet for a TRH test. We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time. Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done. That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit. She was immediately put onto Prascend.
Click to expand...

We had a very similar story. Definitely worth getting the extra test. It is more pricey but you will be much more certain.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I would ask the vet for a TRH test. We had a mare tested for Cushings 3 times (ACTH test), each time came back negative, although slightly higher level each time. Then, because we were concerned about her symptoms (no laminitis) we had the TRH Stim test done. That reading was *8 times* normal upper limit. She was immediately put onto Prascend.
Click to expand...

negative doesn't always mean negative. Mine was tested at 17 (<29) I was sure he had cushings. He was tested a couple of weeks later at 11 (<29). He went onto prascend as a trial. This was 2 false negatives in a fortnight. He was 12. He had had cushings (by symptoms of which footy on stones was one) since he was 5.
 
And equally its not always cushings. Mine didnt have it. My vet at the time was a specialist and hes the vet other vets go to with questions about cushings etc. He doesnt think its as common as people believe especially in young horses.
 
Leo Walker said:
And equally its not always cushings. Mine didnt have it. My vet at the time was a specialist and hes the vet other vets go to with questions about cushings etc. He doesnt think its as common as people believe especially in young horses.
Click to expand...

no it's not always cushings but it is important to rule it out hence the TRH test. If you have cushings then you never make any progress with this sore feet problem. It never occurred to my vet because he was only 12. It certainly never occurred to me why my 5yo was behaving like a cushings horse.
 
If he is comfortable in the field what's the need to do anything different? Or is it because you want to ride?
 
Well I don't want him to have anything wrong with him, for starters!
Clearly he is in pain - when exhibiting footiness over stony ground, and when asked to work (in hand only at the moment) e.g. on the lunge, going hollow. I couldn't just turn him away, knowing there are unresolved issues which are unlikely to sort themselves out. For his feet to come right, he needs work - movement is key for barefoot horses.
And eventually I do want to ride him - not right now as I'm pregnant, but baby is due in early November so hopefully by early 2019. Surely this gives me the perfect opportunity to get him well again? I can work him in hand, I can rest him if required, I can send him away to rehab if required (which I will be discussing with my vet tomorrow).

Forgot all about taking foot photos last night, was in a massive rush after pregnancy Pilates class and then there was a road closure en route to the yard so what should have been 10-15 mins at that time of night took nearly 40! Will try and do them tonight.
 
Well last night when I got there, brought him out to give him a butt wash and apply Camrosa ointment - he has rubbed the top of his tail raw, will come back to that issue in a minute - he looked uncomfortable on his feet, checked and could feel pulses. Pulled his bed all the way forward, he's on soaked hay anyway so put a net in for the night for him and another in to soak for him for this morning. Heading up there shortly.
Yes he has been out overnight, but in a Greenguard muzzle (think they're meant to be amongst the most restrictive?) - and there isn't THAT much grass in his field. I'm shocked to be honest; i've never had to deal with a laminitic horse before though. Good job the vet is out at 9am today.

Can itchiness be a sign of Cushings?

I ask because, although he does scratch his tail, it doesn't look like sweet itch that I've seen before. It's also not pinworm. He did it in the autumn/winter last year, after the midges were about really. I thought it was pinworm and he was treated for it, but there weren't actually any signs of them e.g. yellowy crust. He was just itchy. He continued to rub for a while afterwards, I'm forever giving him butt washes and applying various creams to the area. The only thing that works is Camrosa and that's super expensive so I tried other stuff - and he's rubbed it raw again. ARGH.

Definitely asking for the TRH test this morning. He does not look like a metabolic horse and tested negative for EMS, he isn't overweight, I just cannot believe he is this susceptible to lami without an underlying issue. Suppose we shall see.
 
greeguards tend to be the least restrictive, which is why so many take to them so well.

The itchiness, I've only seen it when they are hot from coat problems, we have one who does it in the stable a lot probably a bite reaction but no sweet itch and a bit of killitch/benzyl benzoate stops her.

See what the vet thinks in a bit :)
 
I didn’t realise that about the greenguard ester! The fellow livery I bought it from had to stop using it because her horse dropped so much weight being out overnight in it, she reckoned he was only getting 20% of the grass intake. Bruce was really struggling with the Shires bucket one so I thought I’d give the greenguard a try! Wish I hadn’t now! Just waiting on vet, update in a bit.
 
So vet thinks TRH test unnecessary - his ACTH reading was so low that it would be extremely unlikely to have a positive TRH test.
Vet thinks butt scratching is recurrence of pinworm - going to treat this again with wash/paint and also an injection (the name of it escapes me now - same injection they use for feather mites I think?). I've got the Camrosa ointment now so the raw bits should heal up quickly now that I'm using this.
Vet is advising shoeing, ASAP. Bruce's feet are sore, but not just where they would be from laminitis. He needs to be comfortable in his feet to get to work on his back. I've got a farrier in mind who I am going to contact ASAP, who is highly rated both by the vet and several friends.
Vet also says he needs to be exercised much more than he is currently - think 30-40 mins lunging per day. I have to say this isn't something I would normally do, but will do it on vet advice. I don't have to do it on a tight circle, I can use the whole school. I'm also going to boot him up as much as possible.
Vet didn't do steroid injections, as didn't want to exacerbate any laminitis risk, but will do them in 2-3 weeks when hopefully he's a bit better in himself.

I'm going to just do what the vet says, follow all his advice to the letter, and see where we are in a few weeks' time. If it works - great. If it doesn't - we change the plan and try some of the alternatives.

Just need to get cracking now!
 
ponyparty said:
I'm going to just do what the vet says, follow all his advice to the letter, and see where we are in a few weeks' time. If it works - great. If it doesn't - we change the plan and try some of the alternatives.

Just need to get cracking now!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update and I agree 100% with your decision for next steps. Good luck.
 
Good luck, hope he gets sorted out and good to go by the time you're post pregnancy - like you say, ideal time to get stuff sorted. I don't envy you having to do 40mins lunging a day though, I think I'd die of boredom!
 
Thanks all for your input. This is a great place to vent worries and get some great ideas for where to go next if what my vet has prescribed doesn't work out. I don't want to abandon barefoot altogether but I really need my horse to be comfortable right now.

Ha, yes I think I may die of boredom - or dizziness/nausea! Having said that, the last 5 months of walking him out on the lanes hasn't exactly been stimulating either. Oh well, the things we do for our horses :D
 
In case your pinworm treatment doesn't pan out - my vet recommended double Pyrantel, followed by 5 day Panacur a week later, and smearing ivermectin-based wormer around the anus until the Panacur is finished. It resolved the problems my boy had with bum rubbing upon his return from 6 months on the common. Never saw any direct evidence of pinworm, but he kept backing into stuff to rub, and when given a chance would target the area under the tail, rather than the dock itself. Had the vet out to do his teeth and mentioned it, and got the above advice. The vet said they have yet to find a case where this protocol doesn't work, and I have to say, it did for me. I also washed the tail with Dermoline insecticidal shampoo at the end of it (get rid of remaining scabs and ivermectin paste), which I think also helped with any remaining itchiness due to caked up skin/cream etc. Not sure the external ivermectin did very much though, but I followed the advice to the letter.
I think it also helped that he lives out 24/7 will electric fencing all around, so no particular place where he could rub and shed eggs to re-infect himself. His field mate didn't pick it up, thankfully.
 
I think if his comfortable in the school and on the road leave his shoes off and try to avoid very stony paths, I have a horse that has a very low grade navicular and I pulled his shoes straight away didn't want remedial shoes and he was sound 3 months later and has remained sound, he is a bit sensitive on stony areas but I just avoid them as much as I can and he actually moves better in the school without shoes.

I think in many cases most vets will recommend you go down the remedial shoe route for navicular as that's what they have been taught, I did read up a lot about it and came on here for advice and I am glad I did because his foot shape has changed quite dramatically.
 
Best of luck, I’ve not followed the whole story but I remember how excited you were when you bought him and am sorry you’ve had a rough time.

Ps supsup im going to bookmark your pinworm protocol - I have a horse with itchy tail / mane, think it’s sweet itch but your advice is worth remembering just in case!
 
Pinkvboots, I really want to leave shoes off but I need him to be comfortable on his feet to resolve the back issue. Even if I just shoe him until we've got that under control, I am just going to do it. I'm contacting a farrier who does those shoes that ester mentioned - half shoe, half plastic pad so the frog and heel is still stimulated. The navicular is mild right now, so hopefully putting shoes back on for a few months won't be the end of the world. He is incredibly flat footed, so the slightest stony ground and he's sore. He was sore all over when the vet used hoof testers the other day.

Reacher - thanks, it hasn't been quite the dream I expected but that's horses! I still love him to bits and am glad I bought him, and I'm sure that there'll be happier times ahead. But yeah it's pretty stressful right now!

supsup - I'm going to speak to a different vet about pinworm treatment and will mention this approach. I've heard the 5 day Panacur is the only one that works really; but agree tackling from all angles is probably best. It's just odd because he had this itchy tail head last summer, and forelock, and that cleared up and healed just with me washing it weekly and applying Camrosa ointment. So perhaps he's got a bit of both, pinworm AND sweet itch. That would be just my luck!
 
Just out of curiosity what was the point of the lunging? To keep weight off or to strengthen core to support kissing spine? Has he said anything about in hand work over poles / carrot stretches to strengthen his core or is that not appropriate for KS? (Not arguing with vet, just interested)
 
Partly to keep weight off (although I don't think he is actually overweight - he's just got this cresty neck all of a sudden); partly to get him moving, as he's off grass at the moment so is stood in his box most of the day; partly to stimulate blood supply and circulation to the legs, to reduce inflammation in the feet. That's how he explained it to me anyway.
I'm not actually lunging for 40 full mins, for the record - I'm doing 10 mins warm up and cool down, and 20 mins of actual work - walk/trot/canter transitions, changes of direction etc. I try to use the whole school if I'm in there on my own, I don't see the value in a horse running round and round on tight circles.
He's recommended using the Equi-Ami to get him engaged and working over his back, to support the KS recovery - I'm going to try this for the first time tonight and see how we go. I'm not expecting miracles though as, if it's uncomfortable for him to work "correctly" then surely he will just resist it?
He did seem to start relaxing his head/neck down a bit by the end of the 20 minutes of work on the lunge last night, so we shall see...

Vet hasn't mentioned carrot stretches etc yet - but that, along with straightness training, is something I was going to investigate myself. Once he's had the steroid injections, I assume that physio will also be prescribed, so I would hope for the physio to give me strengthening and stretching exercises to do with him. I was already planning lunging over scattered/raised poles to vary the work and keep him engaged (in both mind and core!) - this is what I had started doing before all this happened :(
I booted him up in front last night to lunge, and he seemed to move more freely - so I wonder if even the rubber pieces of the arena surface were previously hurting his flat, sensitive feet..!
 
A cresty neck often comes from tension, a horse that holds itself in a tight way because of back or foot pain will frequently have a crest that is out of proportion to the rest of its body and has little to do with its weight, I have seen very lean horses with impressive but incorrectly built up crests, I suspect yours is much the same due to him holding himself the wrong way even when turned out, it can sometimes be seen on horses in no work.

I think putting shoes on is probably the best solution to help resolve his issues, while barefoot may be ideal it does not work for all horses in all scenarios and you have to do what is right for yours at the moment.
 
I didn't think of that, bp. But his crest has definitely become hard with the arrival of the lush grass. Either way - hopefully with exercise and moving properly, it'll subside soon.

And thank you, re: the shoes - that is exactly what I'm thinking.
 
Collected pinworm treatment and administered first dose yesterday. Consists of:
Panacur 5 day
Ivermectin wormer administered rectally x 1
Ivermectin "paint" - applied after washing the area.

However, I've been applying Camrosa ointment for a week now - so he had already stopped rubbing his tail, his skin is healing and the hair is growing back. I will be VERY interested to see if there are any dead pinworms in his poo, or if (as I suspect) I've just wasted £80 on worming treatment for a horse with nothing more than sweet itch...!!

I can't get hold of the remedial farrier I want, he was meant to phone back last Thursday/Friday and hasn't. I know he's really busy and not technically meant to be taking on new clients, but he did say he'd sort something out as I was a vet recommendation.
In the meantime, my barefoot trimmer has recovered from his illness and will be in the area this Sunday - so I'm going to have him look at Bruce and see what he thinks. If he gives me some good options, which the vet will consider, I'll try that path first. If he agrees that for the sake of Bruce's other problems, I should just get him shod, then I'll harangue this remedial farrier with renewed vigour. His feet are not overly long in the meantime, so he's not desperate for a trim. I actually think it might have been good for them to just have a rest and let a bit of hoof wall grow down. They're looking a bit raggedy, but nothing that a walk up and down the lane wouldn't sort out.

He is going well on the lunge - he still works hollow to begin with but I find the longer I work him, the more he relaxes (I found this ridden as well, it always took him a while to loosen up and start relaxing down into the contact). I'm currently doing, for example:
10 mins warm-up in walk
5 mins trot with lots of transitions down to walk and back again
5 mins trot/canter, lots of transitions
10 mins in Equi-Ami in walk/trot
10 mins cool down in walk
Does this all sound ok to you guys, am I on the right track? Equi-ami is only to be used for 10 mins and it's a big ask considering he's been out of proper work for some time now; I've got it on a fairly loose setting, I'm not asking him to bring his head in but rather down and out.

Last night, as someone had conveniently left poles in the school, I also did some zig zag poles, trotting poles on the ground and raised at alternate ends. Just a couple of times of each, to keep him interested. He certainly seemed to enjoy the pole work more - pricked his ears forward and looked interested, bless him! Will try and incorporate that every other day or two.

We have a classically trained, international grand prix dressage trainer coming to the yard this weekend running clinics so I'm going to have a groundwork session with him on Sunday hopefully, get a few exercises I can be doing with B to encourage him to work over his back properly.

Bitting - I've now tried the Myler ported loose ring and eggbutt snaffle from the Bit Bank, I'd say he goes marginally better in the eggbutt but still does his usual gurning. He hasn't got his tongue over the bit in either... yet, but still not ideal; if he's resisting the bit/uncomfortable in his mouth, this will be reflected in head/neck carriage and travel down his back. I'm going to try a single jointed Happy Mouth next (as someone has one they can lend me), any other suggestions welcome! I prefer French link as I think they're kinder but... some horses do go better in a single jointed bit, and he does have a dainty little mouth. So we shall see.

Feeling more positive this week anyway, thanks everyone for all your input so far x
 
If he's being fussy in the mouth which might not be helping getting the correct work do you need to bit him currently?
 
He needs bitting for use of the Equi-Ami i believe... Suppose I could hook it to the side rings of the lunge cavesson, but would this not change the action of it?

I would rather just find him a bit he's comfortable in, to be honest. If I really can't find anything he is comfortable in, I'll have to rethink - but I'd prefer to just find something he likes and goes well in ASAP and then stick to that, for all groundwork and eventually ridden work, for continuity.

I do like the idea of going bitless but I don't think it's for us, he's super spooky and strong and I just wouldn't trust that I could control him without being bitted. I'm sure I'll get a load of comments now saying that control shouldn't come from the bit etc... Yep I know that, but when you've got half a ton of sport horse on high alert, spooking, ready to flee from perceived danger, not responding to voice or other aids, you need whatever tools are in the box to keep you both safe.
 
I thought you could maybe do both together, just possibly tricky finding the best bit option while introducing other new kit.

I wasn't suggesting it as a long term solution, just that when re-establishing the basics/correct way of going it might be a) possible, b) better to take it out of the equation.

Fwiw frank much prefers a single joint over a french link and hates a lozenge but will also go in anything, just a bit differently so his definition of hate is lower than others.

There are a lot of options out there now, almost too many! A couple of friends have had fitting clinics and been pleased with the results.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top