Hooray a positive at last! aka - I love my Pelham and I'm not afraid to admit it

Standie1 said:
Hi Everyone, Yes I have just joined the forum today and the first thread that I open and read is this one. To say that I am stunned is an understatement!! I cannot believe the rudeness and bullying from one person, pushing one beliefs down peoples throats does not open the way for a mature and informative discussion.

Like people, horses are all individuals and will prefer different methods, training and devices to be happy - Some horses prefer to be bitless and others can only be bitted, and prefer different styles of bits. It is up to us to read and make the best judgement call on what best suits our horses in the kindest possible way.

My horse prefers Bitless, treeless and is barefoot, but it took 5 years for us to find his happy place. Though this suits him it may not suit another horse. My beliefs and experience may help someone on this forum just as I know that many of you will have something to offer me and my horse.. I am looking forward to many discussions in the future and hopefully a lot less bullying - It is upsetting to see a person that (maybe is) using the same methods as myself, be so closed minded and ruin a healthy discussion by forcing her beliefs on others. Please remember that not all us bitless riders are so closed minded or rude..
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Totally agree with this, I ride the same way but I dont go round forcing stuff on other people, please to everyone dont judge us all on few people
 
Heather Moffat likes pelham;'s but does advise using two reins rather than rounders, and tom roberts another top horseperson also liked pelhams for some horses.

I used them for my kids pony with rounders and she went from being a puller to really light and responsive, which meant the kids could be light.

I also have started using a pelham on a pony that is really hard work to get on the bit, and she is improving with this at a walk and trot, but it will take time to get her really consistent. Then we may go back to a snaffle, but will see.
 
Lost Claus said:
Not had the horse long and know that we both need schooling, not had much chance to get in the arena yet what with the dark evenings and school has either been flooded/frozen! So just ticking over with hacking getting him fit again and settling him into new surroundings until circumstances improve and I can get the schooling work in. Put the pelham in as had a scary hack where he was tanking off. In the pelham he was instantly better without any pressure. So I will be keeping him in the Pelham for now but thanks for your advice.
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Sometimes it's necessary to put a horse in a stronger bit, if only for your confidence. A lot of horses can be re - schooled to go well in a snaffle again, and with the pelham if riding in double reins you can do as much as you can on the snaffle rein but still have the curb rein for security.
 
Hey, I know I only made an account yesterday but it was pretty much just for this. I guess those of you who were reading the thread on the Facebook page saw someone posting about wanting to write about the anatomy.
Well, I'm much too tired to do that but I will say that the bit does put pressure on nerves in the mouth by just sitting there and hence why bitless bridles can be the better way to go, although not all horses like some bitless bridles. Unfortunately, it seems that for many people no bit = no control and that isn't something that is going to chance any time soon.

However, I'll just add that with my horse and all the ones I've seen change to bitless there has been a happier horse. I am not saying that all of your horses are unhappy, I'm sure you care for them in the way you think is best for them. I think it is important for everyone to remember that no one way is the right way with horses. What works well for one horse and owner another person may think is cruel. For example, for weight management I do not rug my horse and allow him to go lean over the winter so that he can go through more natural hormonal changes and allow a bit of leniency in the Spring and not risk laminitis - many people have been commenting that this horse needs a rug because they like their horses to be nice and toasty (mine is unclipped and very hairy and started the winter very fat). Clearly, what I am doing is not cruel and I am not seeing through rose tinted glasses because it's what I'd do and in my opinion rugging a horse in two rugs when it's 15˚C and sunny (yes this happens with some I know) is quite cruel as the horse has a risk of over heating or becomes dependant on a rug and then what happens when it's -10˚C? A duvet under 3 rugs? But this whole thing is a matter of how people have different opinions of what is best for their horse.

So yeah, I'm not saying you lot are being cruel to your horses. There has obviously been a clashing of two different opinions with no leniency. Although, I also misread the comment about preferring to hurt the horse rather than arms. I assume now it was meant to be a figure of speech meaning that they'd rather use light pressure than hauling on the mouth?
In my opinion though, compassionate schooling to refine lightness in horse and rider is much more beneficial to both than simply increasing the bit strength. I'm sure most of you would agree with this.
It's also good to remember that "bad behaviour" with horses can be associated with pain e.g. sore back, ill fitting saddle, lameness (even if you can't see a lameness, it may still be there) or a bit. In this case, simply strapping up a horses mouth and putting stronger bits in isn't going to solve anything (I've known people to whip/yell at a horse throwing them off only to find weeks later that there was a broken tree in the saddle that messed its back up. I've also seen horses rearing and the owner's idea of fixing this was to put on stronger and stronger bits until the horse submitted and behaved - no doubt this horse had something wrong with it but apparently it was just being naughty).

Anyways, I hope you don't all start quoting me and trying to prove me wrong or say all sorts about me because I believe I have written a balanced and rational post that looks on both sides of the argument.

Have a good evening ladies.
 
Moomin059 said:
However, I'll just add that with my horse and all the ones I've seen change to bitless there has been a happier horse..
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I've seen at least a dozen swap between bitted and bitless and I have never observed the horse to be any happier unless it had been in the wrong bit. OI know there are horses which don't like a bit at all, but I have never found one.
 
Hi Moomin,

Good post and put in a way that shows your views without being offensive. I think that the thing that put peoples backs up was not the whole pelham/no pelham/ bit/ no bit debacle but the offensive way in which a couple of posters put their view points across. There is no need for rudeness, whatever your views might be!

:)
 
avthechav said:
Hi Moomin,

Good post and put in a way that shows your views without being offensive. I think that the thing that put peoples backs up was not the whole pelham/no pelham/ bit/ no bit debacle but the offensive way in which a couple of posters put their view points across. There is no need for rudeness, whatever your views might be!

:)
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But we did have a laugh last night .
 
Goldenstar said:
But we did have a laugh last night .
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I know you did!

About the strong bit with lightness compared to a "weak" bit with heavy hands. The heavy hands does more damage because it damages the cheek teeth it comes in contact with, particularly by the action of "sawing" that many people seem to do. Admittedly, I was guilty of 'sawing' until I got off the riding school and stopped to think about what I was taught - most of it fab, I wouldn't be able to ride (apparently well as people tell me but I believe I can still improve) but e.g. the sawing was not benefiting the horse.
My aim now is using my knowledge of anatomy and body systems I'm learning to better improve my horsemanship and riding abilities. The problems lie when people are too set in their own ways to change and think their way is god.

Aaaanyways, need a bath to chillax as another exam tomorrow. Don't be excessively posting now.
 
What makes a bit "strong" are the hands on the other end of the reins. The difference between curb action and snaffle action bits are profound because they act on different parts of the horse's head (as do the various types of bitless bridles), but one is not necesarily "stronger" than another. The hackamore bitless bridle, for instance, is in fact a curb action device, and can be extremely severe if used roughly/ignorantly.
 
Cortez said:
What makes a bit "strong" are the hands on the other end of the reins. The difference between curb action and snaffle action bits are profound because they act on different parts of the horse's head (as do the various types of bitless bridles), but one is not necesarily "stronger" than another. The hackamore bitless bridle, for instance, is in fact a curb action device, and can be extremely severe if used roughly/ignorantly.
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Yup I saw a lot of damaged noses when I was working. Hackamore damage is horrible it's just a myth they are always kinder than bits .
All tack is only as good as how it fits and how well it's used.
 
navaho said:
Just thought you might all like to know this is being discussed over on FB as well :)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/113092998703926/?fref=ts
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I have no time for people who have to go elsewhere and have their ego's massaged just because they get different opinions and no-one is patting their hands' and saying 'there, there..you are correct..it's OK'....

I recall a very well known professional doing the same thing because she didn't get the answers she wanted. Quite frankly, I was amazed. Then the director of a company was slagging off members of HHO, again because she didn't hear what she wanted...

I learnt myself a while ago that there is no point in doing that, you don't do yourself any favours, you just look a berk. We are not jealous, we are not cruel, we do what suits our horses, as do you. Live and let live and be done with it.
 
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If I remember rightly Gerd Heuschmann talks about nerve damage caused by hackamores and knotted halters in his "Tug of War" book. It seems every riding aid used has some level of phsyiological effect on a horse and it depends on training and the rider whether it's a good or bad effect.
 
keelind said:
If I remember rightly Gerd Heuschmann talks about nerve damage caused by hackamores and knotted halters in his "Tug of War" book. It seems every riding aid used has some level of phsyiological effect on a horse and it depends on training and the rider whether it's a good or bad effect.
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EVERYTHING we do with horses depends on the skill, knowledge and ability of the rider. Which is why it behoves us (ha ha; just realised how especially that word is appropriate here) to do our very best to learn and improve.
 
Cortez said:
EVERYTHING we do with horses depends on the skill, knowledge and ability of the rider. Which is why it behoves us (ha ha; just realised how especially that word is appropriate here) to do our very best to learn and improve.
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This is going to become my personal mantra! :) Perfectly put.
 
Cortez said:
What makes a bit "strong" are the hands on the other end of the reins. The difference between curb action and snaffle action bits are profound because they act on different parts of the horse's head (as do the various types of bitless bridles), but one is not necesarily "stronger" than another. The hackamore bitless bridle, for instance, is in fact a curb action device, and can be extremely severe if used roughly/ignorantly.
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I'm not very fond of the hackamore myself, use a Dr Cook.
Different bits act differently depending on the type of mouth - a nut cracker action is severe on a horse with a low palate for example. But, in general, snaffles are regarded as a kinder bit and pelhams as severe (I was just talking about general opinion about different types of bit rather than my own, hence the ""). The longer the leverage on the bit, however, will produce a stronger action of the bit.
 
Moomin059 said:
I'm not very fond of the hackamore myself, use a Dr Cook.
Different bits act differently depending on the type of mouth - a nut cracker action is severe on a horse with a low palate for example. But, in general, snaffles are regarded as a kinder bit and pelhams as severe (I was just talking about general opinion about different types of bit rather than my own, hence the ""). The longer the leverage on the bit, however, will produce a stronger action of the bit.
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I repeat: what makes a bit strong is the hands pulling on it. Snaffles are lethal pincers in the wrong (pulling, tugging, bouncing, dead, un-releasing, sawing, jerking) hands. Curb bits CANNOT be used without a spontaneous and instant release, which is why they are considered advanced bits. Neither are inherantly "strong" or "mild", it's just that snaffles, being less precise, are generally advocated for less experienced riders, and curbs or (more usually nowadays) double bridles are the province of more highly trained horses and riders.
 
Cortez said:
I repeat: what makes a bit strong is the hands pulling on it. Snaffles are lethal pincers in the wrong (pulling, tugging, bouncing, dead, un-releasing, sawing, jerking) hands. Curb bits CANNOT be used without a spontaneous and instant release, which is why they are considered advanced bits. Neither are inherantly "strong" or "mild", it's just that snaffles, being less precise, are generally advocated for less experienced riders, and curbs or (more usually nowadays) double bridles are the province of more highly trained horses and riders.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that depending on the differing anatomy of an individual horse's mouth makes the action of the bit, regardless of the hands on the reins either more mild or more severe.
I don't believe there are mild or strong bits, otherwise I'd still have mine bitted in something "mild". It's just many people believe there's a major difference and decide on bits that way.
However, a light hand on say the first ring of a gag is going to have a more mild effect than the same pressure exerted on the last (maybe 3rd) ring of that same gag. That is purely due to the leverage.
 
Maybe I'm not explaining very well: I know that people always think that a snaffle is a mild bit and somehow a horse being ridden (often poorly) in any form of a snaffle is somehow "better" than a horse wearing a pelham - hence the proud boast of "snaffle mouthed" - but the difference in equipment isn't nearly as influencial as the quality of the riding. A horse getting socked in the gob with a snaffle is not necessarily preferable to a lightly ridden, double-or-pelham-wearing horse.
 
Didn't think I'd have to unsubscribe from my own 'happy achievement' thread due to boredom ;) Obviously this is a public forum so everyone is more than entitled to voice their own opinion. We all are individuals, with different horses, different areas of interest, different abilities and resources etc etc but it is sad when people start argueing over different things. I think we should all respect what each other do (unless of course people are putting their horses happiness/health at risk). Forums are a great place for sharing different ideas, getting support, getting advice (when asked for it) and of course for a bit of harmful banter :D But it does suprise me that people do get so opinionated about certain things, it does kinda take the fun and enjoyment out of it! Not everyone does things the same way - there's more than one way to skin a cat (pics to follow). Not aiming this at anyone in particular...just saying :)
 
Cortez said:
Maybe I'm not explaining very well: I know that people always think that a snaffle is a mild bit and somehow a horse being ridden (often poorly) in any form of a snaffle is somehow "better" than a horse wearing a pelham - hence the proud boast of "snaffle mouthed" - but the difference in equipment isn't nearly as influencial as the quality of the riding. A horse getting socked in the gob with a snaffle is not necessarily preferable to a lightly ridden, double-or-pelham-wearing horse.
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I'm sorry Cortez, but if you've been reading what I've been typing you'll see that I said that I was using the terms mild and strong with regards to bits as what the general public horse owners think, not myself. You'll also see that I wasn't disagreeing the fact that snaffles can cause a lot of damage.

I quote from an earlier post of mine:
The heavy hands does more damage because it damages the cheek teeth it comes in contact with, particularly by the action of "sawing" that many people seem to do.

So while you're trying to put what you're saying in more simple terms.. I do know what you've been saying but you haven't been reading what I've been saying. I have said that a lighter hand in what most people regard as a stronger bit is kinder than a heavy hand in what most people regard as a kind bit.
I believe that there is no difference between bits, mild or strong. This is why I have chosen to go bitless. If I thought a snaffle was mild then I'd still be using one. However, I have said that leverage is an important factor, not just hand lightness.

I hope I have managed to make myself more clear that I am actually agreeing with you about the difference of bits and hands.
 
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Lost Claus said:
Didn't think I'd have to unsubscribe from my own 'happy achievement' thread due to boredom ;) Obviously this is a public forum so everyone is more than entitled to voice their own opinion. We all are individuals, with different horses, different areas of interest, different abilities and resources etc etc but it is sad when people start argueing over different things. I think we should all respect what each other do (unless of course people are putting their horses happiness/health at risk). Forums are a great place for sharing different ideas, getting support, getting advice (when asked for it) and of course for a bit of harmful banter :D But it does suprise me that people do get so opinionated about certain things, it does kinda take the fun and enjoyment out of it! Not everyone does things the same way - there's more than one way to skin a cat (pics to follow). Not aiming this at anyone in particular...just saying :)
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You just get on with enjoying your horse.
 
I love my pelham too!!!!! Made my welsh d a different pony when i started using it!!! I use it with two reins thou as i just find it easier!!

Big smiles for you and your pony!!! :D

Any pics????
 
Just to add seeing as I cannot edit my last post:
Cortez, you are saying that only the hands on the reins are making a bit strong and completely disregard my comment on leverage.
Leverage is a law of physic, you cannot disregard it. One reason why pelhams/gags etc are considered stronger bits than snaffles is because of the leverage, regardless of the lightness of the hands.
Spanners have long handles to increase the leverage, if not for this then it would be near impossible to exert the force needed to remove a bolt. The long handle provides the leverage so that less effort/force is required to remove the bolt. The same thing happens with bits in horses mouths.
I repeat:
You cannot disregard leverage as a factor that contributes to the strength of the bit unless your reins are not in your hands and you are using your seat for communication. It is a law of physics
 
Just saw this tonight and have spent (wasted) an hour reading it. Great fun and well done Lost Claus on your positive Pelham experience.

Finding lots of posts very bizarre however - first time I've seen such a long and at times controversial thread with no less than 4, or is it 5, brand new members.
 
Moomin059 said:
Just to add seeing as I cannot edit my last post:
Cortez, you are saying that only the hands on the reins are making a bit strong and completely disregard my comment on leverage.
Leverage is a law of physic, you cannot disregard it. One reason why pelhams/gags etc are considered stronger bits than snaffles is because of the leverage, regardless of the lightness of the hands.
Spanners have long handles to increase the leverage, if not for this then it would be near impossible to exert the force needed to remove a bolt. The long handle provides the leverage so that less effort/force is required to remove the bolt. The same thing happens with bits in horses mouths.
I repeat:
You cannot disregard leverage as a factor that contributes to the strength of the bit unless your reins are not in your hands and you are using your seat for communication. It is a law of physics
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The action of a bit with a curb action is significantly differen from one without a curb, as I believe Cortez has already pointed out, more than once! The 'leverage' you talk about causes the action of the bit to be on a different part of the mouth, it also increases poll pressure. You also have not taken into acount the action of the curb chain/strap. To try and discuss the strength of a bit without taking into acount the different parts of the horses mouth and head which are most affected is fairly pointless IMO
 
Point is, if someone is using double reins, then the curb rein should be pretty much loose unless in action, which would only be when necessary. So therefore, the only time this bit could be particularly severe is if someone is over zealous with their hands, or reliant on their hands for balance.

If someone is using roundings, then essentially the curb action is hindered and less effective anyway, so 'safer' for less considerate or experienced riders.

Personally I have only ever used straight bar pelhams as I find the nutcracker action of jointed a bit too harsh coupled with the curb (I always used double reins unless jumping) and poll pressure.
 
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