Horse Abattoir Film Reveals Welfare Breaches

I too couldn't watch it. I would say though, that what we don't need is more regulation. In all these awful cases, be they ill treated horses or abused children etc, it is the failure of those supposed to be in charge to use the powers that are available to them that is the problem. Yet more regulation simply allows politicians to appear to be doing something.
 
I have signed and shared but I just cant watch the footage. I feel a bit of a wimp but I am reduced to tears just reading some of the articles. I pray that this hideous practice with end.
 
horseydebbie said:
Couldn't watch the video. A lot of the horses that end up at this slaughter house go through Beeston Horse Sale (in Cheshire) I have been at the sale when the horses have been collected by this slaughter house. They are definatly not treated with any respect, and I have witnessed young foals being beaten with sticks and kicked to get them to the loading ramp. Where are the RSPCA who say they attend horse sales. I have NEVER seen them, and I go there quite often. It's about time something was done about this cruel treatment.
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Well said....Couldn't agree more.
 
just as an aside, if the rspca did their job at beeston in the first instance a lot of the the horse and ponies would not be sold as they are unfit to be there in the first place. if livestock sales had animals turning up in the same condition they auctioneers would be horrified and do something about it.

that would create another can of worms.




can anyone tell me how i can get my upper case to work
 
irish_only said:
just as an aside, if the rspca did their job at beeston in the first instance a lot of the the horse and ponies would not be sold as they are unfit to be there in the first place. if livestock sales had animals turning up in the same condition they auctioneers would be horrified and do something about it.

that would create another can of worms.




can anyone tell me how i can get my upper case to work
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Err, Trading Standards and the vet at Beeston should be doing that - that is their job.

Oh, and fwiw, TS attend Beeston most weeks.
 
I did watch the video though had the sound off as did not want to be haunted. It was totally horrendous.

I believe Turners Abbatoir as featured advertise regularly in Horse and Hound. If this is true the management of H&H should suspend all advertising from Turners while the Abbatoir is being investigated.

Horse and Hound should take a stance on this - their currently loyal readers want to know where H&H stand.

Well done Hillside Sanctuary for undertaking this investigation.
 
I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.
 
Welly said:
I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.
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What do you mean by 'where were the RSPCA'?

Where were they meant to be? Sitting in an abbattoir 24/7?
 
BHS_Lee,

As another, thank you for your detailed response. I've emphasised my points, and would hope that others with constructive thoughts, may join with us. In as much as you are able to assist in promoting a way forward, I will be interested in your responses.

To save on the valued H&H forum space, you will see that I've deleted those parts of your post which are accepted.

Alec.

BHS_Lee said:
Hi Alec

I think the BHS has made it pretty clear that we absolutely and unreservedly support a reduction in the number of horses in Britain. We clearly have far far more animals than we can cope with as evidenced by the number of welfare cases that the various agencies are dealing with - and this number is ever increasing. We are seeing far more multiple horse cases now than five years ago for example. In part this has to be tackled by decreasing the number that we are breeding (by which we primarily mean the low quality animals that are seemingly constantly churned out with no thought for their future). That is something we have been working on for some time (e.g. castration days and so on). Accepted.

However, obviously lowering the numbers bred without legislation is incredibly difficult and does not impact on the overpopulation issues that exist now. So putting aside the moral issues of whether people should eat horsemeat (which is an entirely personal choice), we believe that abattoirs perform a much needed service. There are obviously all sorts of ethical questions over whether it is acceptable that we as a nation are in a position whereby our abattoirs to process so many horses that are apparently "surplus to requirements" (rather than ethically farmed for the purpose) but this needs to be addressed at the breeding end of the scale.

Accepting that it would be commercially unviable to breed horses for meat (ergo, we don't eat it!) there is, none the less, a disposal market for those horses which are, for a myriad of reasons, unsuitable for a ridden future.

To illustrate my point; a horse which reaches the age of 3 years, and is worth £500-1000 for slaughter,will have cost its owner, probably double the sale value, at a minimum. Patently few would breed, or Ethically Farm horses for meat, because the returns wouldn't be sufficient. The point of a commercial value, is that it converts the horse from a liability, into a perceived asset. Without a final slaughter value, every single horse is a costly liability.

What is imperative and without question is that if we have abattoirs they MUST operate to the highest of welfare standards. I agree.

Clearly this has not been the case at the Red Lion which is totally unacceptable and there is no mitigation or justification for this. I don't agree.

There are no reasons at all why equine abattoirs cannot operate efficiently and effectively whilst maintaining excellent welfare standards. Not so. There are many reasons, varied and on occasion contradictory, why equine Abattoirs fail in their standards of care. The British equine owning public, supported by charities which have pandered to completely unreasonable demands, have brought this upon them selves. All abattoirs are run as businesses, and with the totally unreasonable conditions placed upon them, not I would add through welfare grounds, but through licensing and restrictive demands. To support my point, there are 3 equine abattoirs in this country, has anyone stopped to ask "Why"?

So yes, to answer your question we believe there is a need for horse abattoirs (with the highest standards of welfare) and a return to a system where a horse carcass had real value would be beneficial. Now here, we're making progress. There is a stumbling block, however.

I don't agree that it is pointless for individuals to lobby Defra / the Government for change. I don't think it is ever really pointless. However, obviously it is imperative that the welfare stakeholders also do so. And the BHS will. So we can take that as a united front?

But we do have to bear in mind that we are in a climate where cost cutting is king and deregulation is the favoured approach. We are not knocking on open doors. The BHS can only claim to speak for its 75 000 members which is just a small percentage of Britian's riders which does limit the power of our voice. So there will always be a role for the individual as well as the charities. The individual, no matter how well intentioned, will never achieve the received heights of the "vote gathering" charity.

In terms of discussions with other organisations, you can absolutley rest assured that this will happen as it does frequently already. The National Equine Welfare Council, CEBEC and the Equine Health and Welfare Strategy for Great Britian are just a few of the ways in which we as a sector get together and facilitate joint working on these issues. Can we be assured that your excellent body, coupled with the WHW have opened up discussions, with the HSA?

I think it is fair to say that there hasn't always been great communication between the charities but this really is changing and has improved markedly. This is evidenced by the On The Verge report and the joint lobbying of Govenment we are doing in respect of this. I shall await the results of your joint approach, with a deal of interest.

As a side note, it is indeed the FSA specifically that have revoked the licenses. This information was correct (although they are of course an agency of Defra). Defra are the body who carries the can, trust me on this!

Apologies this has turned out rather longer than I anticipated! I hope I have answered all of your points. what I don't want though is for my ramblings to deflect from the key point here. What we saw in that footage was utterly unacceptable and we must, and will, do everything we can to ensure that it does not happen again. Your determination is laudable, but just one final question, could you spell out how you see the future, considering the case specific questions?
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I'm grateful to you for your efforts, and though you may believe otherwise, my sole intention is that the established charities step up to the plate, and set aside their fund raising efforts to further assist in the resolution of a problem which is counter productive to animal welfare.

Alec.
 
MrPotts said:
Sorry BHS_Lee but Alec is right, it is Defra who pass or revoke the licence.
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FSA is an agency of DEFRA... either and both.. ;)

And well done BHS for being so coherent...

NB anybody wondering about the WHW petition it is now over 16,000 check ..

From their FB page

More than 16,000 people have signed our petition so far to ensure that the events reported by Sky News at the weekend never happen again - thank you to every one of you. Many more of you have asked for paper copies, and we'll get those to you as soon as we can. In the meantime, please keep liking and sharing to get this issue out there. Read more and sign our petition here http://bit.ly/VzYylX

Some of you have asked why only residents of EU countries can sign. We want to ensure that the British government takes this issue seriously and so in this case we are limiting signatures to EU residents, as this is an issue that directly affects them - either because they are UK residents, or because the meat of the slaughtered horses may have been exported to their country. If you are not in an EU country, we still greatly value your support on this issue. One way to help may be to seek out organisations working on conditions at slaughter in your own country. You can find a list of such organisations on the WSPA website.

We really appreciate the wonderful support that we get from around the world, and hope that together we can help protect horses wherever they are.
 
Zuzan, the fact that the FSA is a department of Defra is totally irrelevant. The FSA don't handle the licencing of UK abattoirs.
 
Welly said:
I don't want to open old wounds but where was the RSPCA. and what have they got to say about this. Well done WHW and BHS who have spoken out.
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Moomin1 said:
What do you mean by 'where were the RSPCA'?

Where were they meant to be? Sitting in an abbattoir 24/7?
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Moomin1, we're in agreement.

The rspca are a charity reliant upon charitable donations for their existence. They are not involved in the issuing of operating licences and shouldn't be involved in prosecutions beyond the point of providing evidence to those who are responsible. The rspca have no greater standing than any other charity. There is a huge conflict of interest for any fund raising body who, being reliant upon donations, acts or attempts to act, in an official capacity.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Moomin1, we're in agreement.

The rspca are a charity reliant upon charitable donations for their existence. They are not involved in the issuing of operating licences and shouldn't be involved in prosecutions beyond the point of providing evidence to those who are responsible. The rspca have no greater standing than any other charity. There is a huge conflict of interest for any fund raising body who, being reliant upon donations, acts or attempts to act, in an official capacity.

Alec.
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You are confused Alec, we are not in agreement whatsoever!
 
Hackneylass, I think a very worrying issue for the animals that are slaughtered in UK abbatoirs is that because a vet is a fairly well paid job (I know that vets will deny this) the abattoir tend to employ foreign vets, some barely even speak English, but they are cheap! Was a vet even present? As personally I don't know.
 
First to put my hand up and say I am not the biggest fan of the RSPCA but one thing I continually see is that whenever animal welfare is mentioned, it is assumed that the RSPCA will be there. It might be an interesting exercise to see the extent of the need in this country for animal welfare and then measure it against the charities that try to deal with this. And I do mean try. Sometimes it must feel like they are King Canute trying to order the tide back. There is an assumption (and I am not having a go at anyone here) that the rescue system is sufficient, well funded and organised to deal with all the issues. The reality is, RSPCA not withstanding, the vast number are run by volunteers, around families and full time jobs, existing on a hand to mouth existence trying to help give animals a second chance and frequently having to say no to taking in healthy animals as they just have no room left.
 
MrPotts said:
Hackneylass, I think a very worrying issue for the animals that are slaughtered in UK abbatoirs is that because a vet is a fairly well paid job (I know that vets will deny this) the abattoir tend to employ foreign vets, some barely even speak English, but they are cheap! Was a vet even present? As personally I don't know.
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They say a vet was present.Worrying if most are foreign as their ideas and ours MAY not match.
 
Alec. As our resident expert (we have no one else prepared to say they work or have worked in abatoirs ) on this forum. What would you do if you had a completely free hand?
 
Eahotson, Our ideas and theirs don't match, a lot of cattle aren't shot/stunned properly, why is this considered acceptable by the vets? Poland and Spain have very different standards of welfare to us. Each person on the line with a set job only has a certain amount of time to do their job, therefore mistakes are obviously going to happen. As someone mentioned on here, it is a certain 'type' that work in an abbatoir, it has to be, it's hardly the greatest work atmosphere.

Cctv should be in every abattoir.
 
Moomin1 said:
Err, Trading Standards and the vet at Beeston should be doing that - that is their job.

Oh, and fwiw, TS attend Beeston most weeks.
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Thats exactly what i was going to say. Trading Standards should be doing there job. They come down hard enough on farmers who do genuinely care for their livestock.
 
MrPotts said:
Eahotson, Our ideas and theirs don't match, a lot of cattle aren't shot/stunned properly, why is this considered acceptable by the vets? Poland and Spain have very different standards of welfare to us. Each person on the line with a set job only has a certain amount of time to do their job, therefore mistakes are obviously going to happen. As someone mentioned on here, it is a certain 'type' that work in an abbatoir, it has to be, it's hardly the greatest work atmosphere.

Cctv should be in every abattoir.
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Yes I can see that standards may be different but there are always going to be individuals, some more humane than others.Its the mention of 'type' thats worrying.We all tend to look down a bit on slaughtermen/women but they do a necessary job.Perhaps raising the pay and profile of these workers may help along with some psychological suport occasionally.I agree with the CCTV though.
 
The abattoirs can't afford to increase pay, hence why they employ so many polish. And an increase of pay would hardly improve the 'type' that work there. Three examples off of the top of my head, the first runs an abattoir, a convicted badger baiter, the video is still on YouTube and quite horrific (this is the view of a pro hunting person). The second, drove the wrong way down a major motorway killing a man in the process. The third, currently in custody for the murder of April Jones.
 
eahotson said:
........Its the mention of 'type' thats worrying.We all tend to look down a bit on slaughtermen/women but they do a necessary job.Perhaps raising the pay and profile of these workers may help........
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Thanks for your first sentence, that'll impress those who are looked down upon! Your second sentence, no amount of money converts a moron into Phd student. Familiarity breeds contempt, and without an established and peer lead ethos, a lack of care will always follow the ignorant man. ;)

eahotson said:
They say a vet was present.Worrying if most are foreign as their ideas and ours MAY not match.
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Sadly, those foreign vets employed all so often come from cultures which lack our sensibilities, rightly or not.

eahotson said:
Alec. As our resident expert (we have no one else prepared to say they work or have worked in abatoirs ) on this forum. What would you do if you had a completely free hand?
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That's very kind of you, but your confidence is misplaced. This is a topic which wanders far from the humane treatment of animals, it involves the whole concept of how we live our lives. There has always been, and will always be, cruelty within our slaughter systems. We cannot eradicate it completely, but we can give those who carry out such work, a degree of self respect and we can instil the Slaughterman's Creed within their thought patterns, and we can encourage them to take a pride in their work. It only takes one rotten apple.......

If I had a completely free hand;

I'd start off with Government policy, and with Defra in particular. I would encourage those within the Halls of Power, to point out to the faceless cretins who burden us with the most stupid of rules and conditions from Europe, that their apparent concern is actually counterproductive.......

Allow me to give you two examples; Did you know that wool is now considered to be a material which is now classed as an SRM? When it isn't bought for the wool trade, it has to be incinerated at a licensed premises. Do you know why? You probably don't, so let me tell you, when sheep are clipped there is the odd scrape of skin which may come off with the wool, and that skin is where the perceived or imaginedrisk is.

The second example is that there was a time when abattoirs were allowed to sell the blood which they gathered, in bulk, and it was used as a grass fertiliser. It was highly efficient. Nowadays, blood is also an SRM and so it's buried deep underground. Work that one out. The point of my anti establishment tirade is that the abattoirs have to pay the crippling disposal cost of ALL SRMs, and this has a knock-on effect upon their ability to make a business profitable, have further investment in their plants, employ correctly trained staff, and employ vets who actually care. I'm staggered that there are as many as three equine abattoirs which are still extant.

Government couldn't give two hoots for animal welfare, and some of the charities are little better. Government's primary concern is the garnering of votes and the bulk of the charities are fighting over a diminishing supply of funds. In 20 years time, the number of animal welfare societies will have been halved, through economic pressures and failure of their own making. You see if I'm not right!

What would I do, if I had a free hand, and a wand? I'd gather around me those who were able to put aside their own narrow agendas, that's for a start. Then I'd listen to those who were stake holders. I'd listen to those who could see the sense of establishing a workable, humane and profitable return to the horse becoming a creature of value, both fiscal and intrinsic.

I'd group those animal charities together, insist that they would have their charitable status withdrawn if they refuse to work together, and have them place before their adoring public, a united front, a front which clearly explains that we have a responsibility to animal care, and that where we've failed in the past, through out own petty little in-house competitions, we will now set out to do what is the fabric of our own tenets.

That's the start of what I'd do. Following on from that, State inspectors would, with the assistance of the more experienced, insist upon and assist with, the installation of slaughter systems which reduce the needs for labour, reduce the stress which is forced upon those animals going for killing, and in short, make themselves more efficient.

Education is the trick, but it wont happen, because there isn't the will.

Alec.
 
Alec I don't look down on workers in abattoirs (why abattoir why not slaughterhouses?).My much respect grandfather had a slaughtermans licence and was in fact a kind and careing (but not sentimental) person with animals.I have noticed in the posts t.hough, that there are remarks about the TYPE of people, nnot up to much the implication being, of slaughtermen.This is not good at any level.Better pay and conditions will up the esteem of people working in this industry.Oh yes it will.Who has more esteem a doctor or a road sweeper? Added to which what if the road sweeper earned more than the doctor?Yes I know the doctor is better educated!Really at the end of the day I refuse to believe that it is not possible to have slaughter houses run decently and humanely.Funnily enough the Red Lion slaughterhouse said that it did usually do horses singly BUT where the horses are close companions it is more distressing to seperate them.I accept that.
 
Who has more intelligence, a doctor or a road sweeper? Likely it is the doctor.

Abattoir instead of slaughter houses/man as the word slaughter scares the general public.
 
MrPotts said:
.......

Abattoir instead of slaughter houses/man as the word slaughter scares the general public.
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Traditionally, the air of time and tradition were attached to killing areas, when they were known as "Slaughter Halls". That was in the days when tradesmen took a pride in their work, and they were exalted amongst their peers, and boys served apprenticeships. That was then.

Alec.
 
Can I ask a question - something confuses me - the orginal H&H article mentioned only 2 licensed places to send horses....near to me in Staffs is a place called MHS Horse Disposal...is this also an abbatoir? Not unlicensed surely?
 
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