Horse Abattoir Film Reveals Welfare Breaches

Anecdotal tales of barbarism and needless cruelty, though supportive of the need for change, are in themselves of no help, what so ever.

It is understood that we need change. I do take your point L_m_L that if cctv cameras are to be installed, then there would need to be a clear penalty clause.

As I see it, the problem with cctv is that if every work day lasts for 8 hours, then someone is going to have to spend the next day, all of it, viewing the film. A pointless exercise, you'll agree.

What we actually need are MHS Inspectors and State Vets who are present, at the point of killing, AS THEY ARE EMPLOYED TO BE, and that they will also comply with the remits of their specific work conditions. I suspect that most of them sit in their purpose built offices, filling out reams of paper work, rather than overseeing the day to day work. I may be wrong though!!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Anecdotal tales of barbarism and needless cruelty, though supportive of the need for change, are in themselves of no help, what so ever.

It is understood that we need change. I do take your point L_m_L that if cctv cameras are to be installed, then there would need to be a clear penalty clause.

As I see it, the problem with cctv is that if every work day lasts for 8 hours, then someone is going to have to spend the next day, all of it, viewing the film. A pointless exercise, you'll agree.

What we actually need are MHS Inspectors and State Vets who are present, at the point of killing, AS THEY ARE EMPLOYED TO BE, and that they will also comply with the remits of their specific work conditions. I suspect that most of them sit in their purpose built offices, filling out reams of paper work, rather than overseeing the day to day work. I may be wrong
Alec.
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Sadly Alec you may well be right.
 
I'm not really knowledgeable about improving practice and standards but surely there needs to be worker empowerment, reward, support as well as supervision and reprisal?

Often jobs that, in truth, crucially depend on those at the sharp end for quality care and consistently high standards are generally undervalued, underpaid, understaffed and only a topic worthy of attention when things go wrong. :(
If we want good care for these horses and other animals at slaughter then we have to demand it and be prepared pay for it as end users.

ps. A different working environment would soon weed out the minority that may be like those described earlier.
 
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Alec, as someone mentioned if you employ vets, they can be intimidated, also how can the slaughterhouses afford to pay a UK vet salary? I know of one vet who said nothing when a foreman skinned a patch on a still very conscious bull to re-shoot the animal as it hadn't been stunned properly. If cctv was in place, the fact that it was filming would have deterred this, it's irrelevant of whether every hour of film would be watched. The rspca seem to like throwing their money around at the moment, surely they can fund someone to watch the film at random? Or another charity?

The topic of pay keeps arising, apart from the polish who willingly work for less, slaughtering is good money - why do people on this thread think it is a poorly paid job?
 
MrPotts said:
Alec, as someone mentioned if you employ vets, they can be intimidated, also how can the slaughterhouses afford to pay a UK vet salary?

I know of one vet who said nothing when a foreman skinned a patch on a still very conscious bull to re-shoot the animal as it hadn't been stunned properly.

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A vet is supplied by the State Veterinary Service, as are the Meat Hygiene Services Inspectors. At the last count, they are charged out at about £130 per hour. As you say, affording them is not an easy matter. The problem arises when a horse travels in as a welfare case, or the owner says that they want the horse shot whilst they are present, then that would be possible, but the carcass would go as dog food, I suppose, were there not a vet present at the time of slaughter.

Accidents occasionally happen, and if an animal fails to go down properly to the shot, then it has to be re-shot. I saw a Friesian bull which had gone berserk, and the brave and confident knackerman had gone into a barn with only a round bale of straw between him and the bull which was intent on squashing him, and with a shotgun, he gave it 5 barrels before it eventually gave in. In emergencies, these things sometimes happen.

Alec.
 
So basically Alec, you are saying that you are in disagreement because if something similar to what you describe above was caught on cctv, the general public and do gooders would be outraged but a vet would fully understand it had to be done for the safety of both the bull and any humans that may have been caught in its path...
 
Alec I do accept that with the best will in the world OCCASIONAL accidents will happen.Whoever took that video though EXPECTED breeches to occur.You wouldn't take a camera in if you thought you might have to wait say 12 months to get something worth filming.
 
MrPotts said:
So basically Alec, you are saying that you are in disagreement because if something similar to what you describe above was caught on cctv, the general public and do gooders would be outraged but a vet would fully understand it had to be done for the safety of both the bull and any humans that may have been caught in its path...
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That's exactly what I'm saying. I am NOT however condoning the 3 ponies which had been crowded into a shooting box, with one attacking another, and the chaos which ensued. The was neither a slip-up, nor an accident. That was intentional, and in my view unacceptable.

eahotson, I hope that the above will be acceptable as an answer to your post, too.

We seem to be concentrating on "That particular piece of film", it seems to me, rather than addressing the larger and broader issue of the welfare of horses, in the UK, which are sent for slaughter.

I was hoping that I could gather a group together who would accept my argument that if we were to re-establish, initially through pressure upon our equine charities, and from them to Government, a trade in correctly slaughtered horse meat, then with an improved profit margin, with if needed, cctv cameras, we can once again have horses reaching a humane and worthwhile end, in as much as that's ever going to be possible.

Am I alone?

Alec.
 
You have my full support Alec.

Also I do feel that there could be a market in the UK for horse meat (if slaughtered humanely).
 
you are not alone, i dont always agree with what you say, but this time you are making a bold effort to open a debate about what we can do on a practical level.

i've always wondered how they restrain such as wild foals, well, indeed any horse which is upset, after all we use sedative for everyday procedures such as teeth rasping, we all are aware how much easier it is to deal with a calm horse, although of course any restraint welfare advancements are only ever going to be as good as the people implementing them and the will and legislation to punish abuse, would this not have to come from the top - ministerial level? what's defra's position on the film, have they seen it?
 
im not sure there would be that much of market in british isles for horsemeat! a lot of people have traditionally found the idea of horsemeat distasteful.

also a lot of horses that go for meat are not prime farm, clean meat animals, they are old, sick, unwanted, a lot suffering from some degree of unsoundness for which they have received drugs etc. and neglected and unwanted horses that have not been wormed correctly, i don't know if there are any health implications there, say from migrating worms in the system, and yes there quite a few healthy ones, but its a very mixed bag.
 
On a horse lovers forum, a film like this will always be viewed with emotion by many people. I had flashbacks of the scenes whilst driving to the shops this morning. I wish I hadn't watched it:(

I fully understand that there is a need to slaughter horses. But cruelty can never be tolerated in any form. At least there is now open debate. Accidents and hiccups will always occur in every work situation, but this has obviously going on for a long time. Hence the video footage being taken.

It's a very sad situation, especialy for people who have sent their horses there.
 
Alec Swan said:
What would I do, if I had a free hand, and a wand? I'd gather around me those who were able to put aside their own narrow agendas, that's for a start. Then I'd listen to those who were stake holders. I'd listen to those who could see the sense of establishing a workable, humane and profitable return to the horse becoming a creature of value, both fiscal and intrinsic.
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Having now taken the time to read the whole thread I believe these are great and fundamentally important points. There's no getting away from it slaughter HAS to be profitable so creating and controlling a supply and demand has to be part of it whatever animal we are talking about. If profit is tight then there is no room for investment or employing suitable vets and workers let alone structural and precedural changes to facilitate improved and humane handling and killing.
Other points about changing the status and culture are vital too. It seems a complete reassessment of all aspects needs to happen with changes made and enforced.

I am very depressed to read some posts that hint of criminals and gangster types who have no respect for animals of other humans have some sort of 'control' of these facilities and appear to use intimidation and exploit and use unsuitable foreign workers.
I suppose I am not too surprised sadly, it happens around the world. Look at the Conklin Dairy Farms atrocities caught on film in USA.

However, if the handling routine, procedures and facilities aren't suitable and well planned then workers are dealing with huge extra pressures which will only add to the stress of the job and foster anger, frustration, fear and short tempers.

I'm wondering what type of horses are the largest percentage slaughtered in UK? Domestic (including small breeders) or sport waste?
 
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amandap,

with your consent, I shall copy your post and send to to a director of the HSA; they're an excellent and grounded charity and your very well expressed thoughts, will be welcomed, I'd think.

Alec.
 
I think there should be regular, random visits to every slaughterhouse. I'm talking about each one getting a random visit one or twice a week. No notice, no time to prepare, the inspector can just go in at any time and watch any part of the process. Any breach of procedure resulting in the immediate suspension of the guilty person and the slaughterhouse having to comply with any investigations as a result.

I don't know whether this would work due to the distance between plants but I feel it would be more effective than a vet on site who as has been said is probably hardly on the floor and who has reason not to find fault with the system.

I do have experience with slaughtermen from my time at the vets and they were all pleasant people with horses of their own. I think the small more high end operations will probably source a better type of person that the massive commercial places with huge throughput of animals.
 
Happy Horse said:
I think there should be regular, random visits to every slaughterhouse. I'm talking about each one getting a random visit one or twice a week. No notice, no time to prepare, the inspector can just go in at any time and watch any part of the process. Any breach of procedure resulting in the immediate suspension of the guilty person and the slaughterhouse having to comply with any investigations as a result.

I don't know whether this would work due to the distance between plants but I feel it would be more effective than a vet on site who as has been said is probably hardly on the floor and who has reason not to find fault with the system.

I do have experience with slaughtermen from my time at the vets and they were all pleasant people with horses of their own. I think the small more high end operations will probably source a better type of person that the massive commercial places with huge throughput of animals.
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Couldn't agree more. Horse meat being commercial, while fine in theory, is clearly not the answer because cruelty occurs in the commercial world of cattle, pigs etc., and, like you, I have had only a positive experience in dealing with an abattoir. Presumably the CCTV will also be watched randomly and not 24/7 as suggested. Just knowing that you are being watched is a huge deterrent to start with, and is a positive first move
 
Tristar, a huge amount of people have said they don't actually care about eating the horse meat, it's the fact that the label said 100% beef that has upset people.
 
Many years ago I worked in residential care for adolescents. One young man was sent to us from the old fashioned Approved School type establishement. He was a big lad, with a poor history. He was fortunate t obe taken on by our local abbatoir, which also slaughtered horses. This was a family run firm, who looked after the lad. He developed an amazing work ethic, leaving to catch the first bus to work each day. He was concerned about my perception of what he did, knowing that I kept horses. I was pleased to be able to be posisitve about his job and did help him to prepare a horse meat stew, which I then shared with him.
This small family opperated business changed to a pet crematorium a number of years ago, with a great loss of expertise and knowlege. It is my belief that we need MORE not fewer good slaughterhouses, which also deal with horses, to reduce traveling times and provide a better service for all animals destined for the table.
 
Alec, I too would support any attempts at lobbying you have in mind.
I've only been to Potters, and as previously posted, had nothing but the utmost respect for the professionals working there.

I have no idea of a carcass value for a horse now but appreciate the majority of horseflesh in European butchers is coming from Canada and Mexico following on from the closure of all U.S. slaughter houses so presumably it's worth their while to ship meat across the Atlantic.
Whilst the carcasses originating in the Uk are tagged and serialised, along with the seals on the refrigerated lorries I would be very concerned as to traceability of non UK horsemeat.

Although I'm not much of a meat eater, anything that lives well and dies well should be the maxim.

Let me know if I can be of assistance.
 
YorksG said:
It is my belief that we need MORE not fewer good slaughterhouses, which also deal with horses, to reduce traveling times and provide a better service for all animals destined for the table.
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I absolutely agree.

Devastating and shocking though the film must have been to watch (not watched by me I might add), we can only look forward now. The times they are a'changin' and for the better too. If you treat animals inhumanely, you're at risk of being exposed. And rightly so :)
 
mr Potts, you're right, most people interviewed said they were not bothered about the hosemeat content of the burgers, but the incorrect labeling, so are burger king who have cancelled a contract to supply worth 30 million euros they have with, not sure which, either liffey meats or silvercrest foods, both irish companies, however i don't ever remember seeing horsemeat for sale in the uk in RECENT years, suggesting the demand is not really there, however i could be wrong.

when turners built the abbatoir, about 30 years ago, it cost around 1 million at the time a lot of money, so in some ways it must have been a big money business to justify that sort of outlay, ok times change, but they have certainly had the good times, and anyway, good or bad times financially there is no excuse for handling animals badly, quiet respectfull handling costs nothing. nothing at all.
 
Alec you also have my full support. I am currently a third year Equine Dental Science Student at Hartpury College and as such I have had to go to Potters/ Stillmans for dissertation data collection. What I saw there and the people who work there could not be further from the videos of Turners and the assumptions people make about the people who work there.

As a lot of people have said, slaughterhouses shouldn't have anything to hide and you are quite right. You would find Potters/Stillmans most welcoming at any time of day, any day of the week and they will happily work around you and answer all your questions with a fabulous pride in what they do. The boys are genuinely lovely people and I am not ashamed to associate with their "type". Potters/Stillmans do also have CCTV installed as a matter of course- something to do with the meat butchered by them coming under a "freedom foods"/ high welfare type of umbrella. The respect they show the animals that come through is wonderful and a credit to them.

I would love to see a reduction in over breeding, a reduction in numbers of unwanted horses and an increase in high welfare abattoirs for horses in this country. After all, travelling horses to the continent for slaughter might eradicate it from our consciousness but it is not without its own welfare implications.
 
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After Alec Swan alerted me to the HSA I went on their website and I note that they don't cover the slaughter of horses. I presume this is because horses are not a farmed animal here in UK. So, is there an independent organization researching and campaigning for better procedures for horse slaughter?
There has been mention that horses don't react like other animals and I can clearly see ones that have had human handling wont and of course they are much more agile than cattle and sheep etc.

What happens to the horse meat here in UK? I am guessing pet food and export?
 
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