Horse and Hound, Above the Law ?

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gemstoneflyer13

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As a last resort I seem to find myself resulting to the one option that I loath the most, however after going through the proper channels, this is my last resort.

Recently I have seen a lot of small and large companies get completely slated beyond and means of the imagination on this 'forum site'. Now although I do believe in freedom of speech etc, it does get to the point where you have to consider is it legal for the posters/users to continue this action and also for Horse and Hound to continue to let so many companies get criticised and demeaned in this way.

Having experienced this first hand, I decided to look deeper into the law after being informed via email that Horse and Hound would take no further action unless posts were in breech of their terms and conditions. This lead me to discover the following;


It is stated within English Law that actions of libel may be bought to the High Court, this includes published statements which are alleged to defame a named individual (under English law, companies are considered as a legal person, and are allowed to bring suit for defamation) in a manner which causes them to lose trade or profession, or may cause a reasonable person to think worse of them.


Furthermore, liability for a defamatory statement may also be extended to an institution under the principles of vicarious liability or because, in providing online access facilities, Horse and Hound is directly liable as a publisher or disseminator of the offending statement.
In previous cases of liability for defamation, such as Keith-Smith V Williams (2006), it has been shown that that prosecution can be successful for the plaintiff. This case is very similar to my own as the defamatory statement was made in a chat room where the remarks were available for worldwide viewing.


In my opinion I do believe by allowing these statements to be publicised, that Horse and Hound are knowingly committing an offence in regard to threads against individuals and companies.

Would be very interested to hear other peoples opinions on this matter.
 
Defamation— is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal action to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.

Under common law, to constitute defamation, a claim must generally be false and have been made to someone other than the person defamed. Some common law jurisdictions also distinguish between spoken defamation, called slander, and defamation in other media such as printed words or images, called libel.

Although it may have to be proved that the statement is untrue for Libel, however there is different types of defamation and in many cases concerning posts on a thread in this forum it may be considered as False Light, in being about the impression created rather than being about true or false.
 
H&H is merely a medium for individuals to speak on the www. If any company or establishment feels that certain posters have made defamatory comments and untruths then they are all free to bring a suit against the alleged perpetrator/s. So if you feel you have a solid case, go ahead.
 
I have started legal proceedings for this matter however was just wondering what peoples views are on publicly expressing their opinions on companies/business's.
 
gemstoneflyer13 said:
I have started legal proceedings for this matter however was just wondering what peoples views are on publicly expressing their opinions on companies/business's.
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I believe in free speech so obviously I have no problem at all with people giving their experiences of companies/businesses. It's fairly easy, in this world of media network systems, to find out whether a company has a good or bad reputation tbh; H&H is just one of those mediums. Good luck with your proceedings; from what I know of the law, on the contrary, it is actually very difficult indeed to win a case like this.
 
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!...I think you earn a reputation and if the public think the service you provide is rubbish, you earned that. Also, would you whinge if the consensus was amazing?...I doubt it. Dont like it? Then go away, I don't like to see a great forum, being slated, just because you didnt get the reviews you wanted....As I said, you earn a reputation, and H&H won a very special award recently...did you?
 
This is one of the many problems with this forum, people over react very quickly. I can stand the heat thank you very much however I don't believe that companies should have to worry about the continuous threat of bad press from forums such as these, especially fledgling companies.

Its allowing users to publicly put their side of the story across while all the company can do is just sit back and watch while their name gets thrown in the dirt. I have seen a few companies comment back and all it gets them is more grief for trying to provide solutions to a problem.
 
gemstoneflyer13 said:
This is one of the many problems with this forum, people over react very quickly. I can stand the heat thank you very much however I don't believe that companies should have to worry about the continuous threat of bad press from forums such as these, especially fledgling companies.

Its allowing users to publicly put their side of the story across while all the company can do is just sit back and watch while their name gets thrown in the dirt. I have seen a few companies comment back and all it gets them is more grief for trying to provide solutions to a problem.
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I agree actually. I have to say I do think it is often better for companies to sit back and remain silent if/when they are taking a bit of an online beating. Reputation is earned and if a company does have a genuinely good reputation then a dozen or so random keyboard warriers won't tarnish that reputation :smile3:
 
In the age of the internet, news travels very fast....reviews put buyers in charge, and I like it that way. I am not overreacting, it isnt me looking up ways to sue a valuable asset to a lot of horsey people....or opening new accounts to slate a forum. If your product was so great, you wouldn't be in the state you are in. Maybe use the time and energy to improve your situation/reputation.
 
It may be a valuable asset for asking advice on ways to gain advice on their horses however it is not when it is publicly naming and shaming. I know that many other groups and forums to do not allow this so I'm wondering why horse and hound allow their forum to do so.

They are also not interested in helping you at all in regards to thread posts via email, after sending two emails like advised to a certain department I was given no indication that they had even received them.
 
I see nothing at all wrong with naming and shaming if a company has provided shoddy workmanship, or given poor customer service and if what has been said is true, then any sensible business owner would realise there is no case to be brought. However if they still want to go ahead then they are free to do so, might just cost them a fair bit of money with nothing but debt to show for it at the end should they lose.

As to conversing with H&H staff via email, that's nothing to do with us; that's a private communication between you and them.
 
If every post was regarding advice on horsecare etc, your thread wouldn't have stood a chance, now would it? You had a knock to your ego, learn from it, there is a blessing in every lesson, and it all points to self improvement, rather than berating unhappy customers, perhaps Thank H&H for providing a platform where freedom of speech and opinions different to your own are allowed. Take whatever blow as constructive criticism, rather than 'threatening' a company who could have been the making of your own (should your service have been up to par).
 
Oh gawd this isn't about that ridiculously long thread about those ridiculous equine garments that was on here a month or so ago, is it? *Yawn* I didn't get involved in it but did read with a bit of a chuckle from time to time lol! If it is OP, for goodness sake just move on. You'll only stir it all back up again and then there will be yet another forever Internet thread about your company which could put off future potential customers. Sheesh don't people ever learn?
 
Lol, I thought that SF...but as Op has created a new username, I doubt we will ever know! An old saying comes to mind:
"when you are dead, lay down"...in your horsey pyjamas, if they fit! Lol.x
 
As admin have pointed out before, the views expressed here are not theirs - it's a PUBLIC forum.
As such, a business can exercise their right to reply, which, in the recent loooong thread (if that's what this is on about), they HAVE.

If the business owner can't prove that the customers are lying, and then is rude and bad mannered into the bargain, causing yet more grief for themselves, and THEN asks for the now epic thread to be removed.......well, I'd say tough.

If my business were being 'slated' on here and it was all complete and utter malicious fabrication, then no way would I engage with them - I'd simply take steps to get the thread removed (admin can and have done this) whilst not bumping it up the forum.

The trouble is, in the recent threads, there has been genuine poor customer service (and not only reported on this forum). Now, if this were me, I would use my right to reply to apologise and try to IMPROVE my company's image - not call my customers liars, blame them for the problems when they are finally admitted to, stick my head in the sand and be generally extremely rude. And then, when I've done a good chunk of the damage myself, expect admin to just remove pages and pages of user content because I've messed up.

But it would seem that some people never learn, as all this thread will do is just dredge it all up again - which, as it was started by you, only goes to show that you don't actually mind using public forum generally, and this one particularly, to air your grievances. You just don't want people to do it with regards to YOUR company.

You can't have it all ways you know....
 
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As Spring Feather and Cherrydan have said, I'm a firm believer that reputation is earned. If a product is of poor quality or poor customer service is provided or the general customer experience is negative then of course the company involved will earn a bad reputation - and rightly so. Just as it will earn a good reputation if the opposite is true. Of course people will share their experiences, if something bad has happened to you, you will generally try to ensure the same thing doesn't happen to someone else. Nowadays with the extent of social media opinions reach much further.

I don't know your situation OP but IMO taking legal action against someone is very serious and very costly - I hope you have a good solid case to do so or you could end up damaging your reputation irreparably. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches, take a good look at the situation and decide whether there is something more positive to focus your attention on. Everyone goes through tough times, especially when starting up a new company I would imagine, but a positive reputation doesn't just materialise out of nowhere. IME you won't earn it by chucking law suits at unhappy customers.
 
^ This entirely ^ sometimes in business one has to super critical and put themselves into their customers shoes. Feedback is an excellent tool that can only be used positively for said business owner. In my eyes there is no such thing as negative feedback but then perhaps it's handy to actually be critical of something and use what has been said as a way of improving.

OP you'll never make everybody happy, it's a simple fact of life but learn from what has been stated and aim to change the bad bits. I know it's hard putting literally hours of blood, sweat and tears into a business - christ the amount of sleepless nights i've had would make me an insomniac but just got to take the rough with the smooth and aim to do better in the future.
 
To me, the issue here is that of "truth". If someone on the forum tells a tale of woe about their experiences with a particular company, then as long as they are being truthful in their account of events, then the company concerned can have no axe to grind. Clearly, recounting those poor experiences in public, to an interested audience, may then have the effect of influencing others not to trade with that company, and to go elsewhere to spend their money!

To survive in any commercial environment, whatever business you're in, you need to offer good products/service to your customers at a fair price and hope they either trade with you again, or tell their friends how great you are so they are encouraged to trade with you as well. This is how good businesses survive. ....(there are hundreds of text books available on the topic, should you wish to read them). ...

The converse is also true .... You offer poor products/service, get slated, and customers disappear. To me, this isn't a matter for legal redress. It's a matter of good commercial practice ...

So my thoughts would be ... Address your current unhappiness by running a sound business, producing good products and offering excellent customer service, rather than running bleating to the courts or berating H&H when things get commercially uncomfortable and you don't like what's being bandied about on an Internet forum.

Eta ... If we are talking about "that" thread, I was another who couldn't be bothered to read it, other than to groan inwardly when yet another response bumped it up again. May it rest in peace .....
 
If a company is delivering a good level of service, with a decent quality product, and making best efforts to rectify any problems that arise, they are HIGHLY unlikely to appear on an internet forum in a negative way.

If they deliver extremely poor customer service, or their product is not up to scratch, or they don't communicate, or worse still blame their customers in a rude and aggressive way, then they should EXPECT to get a public slating on the internet.

"Do as you would be done by", applies equally to individuals as to companies.
 
As I understand it (and a lawyer I ain't!) this subject is quite complicated.

The truth is a good defence. So if I defame someone, they can sue me. My defence would be that what I said was true -- but I would have to produce evidence to prove that it was true to the satisfaction of the court. That is not quite the same thing as simply stating that I've only spoken the truth.

People are allowed to have opinions and to state them in public, but making false defamatory statements could be actionable in a court of law and if you can't prove what you've said is true you could lose. I happen to think the format of this forum is out of date and cumbersome and I cannot for the life of me understand how it could win any prizes! That is possibly defamatory but it is also my honest opinion and I doubt a court would entertain HHO bringing an action against me. (I suspect others will also agree that I speak the truth!).

Honest comments in the public interest are allowed.

You do not need to name the person to be successfully sued. All that's needed is for them to be identifiable.

If a poster on here started a campaign to defame me, I could sue HHO, I could sue the web presence provider, I could sue the telephone company who bring the signal to my house…in fact all and anyone involved with bringing the defamation to public notice. In the case of a newspaper, it used to be (? still is) anyone in the publication process from the reporter, through the editor, newspaper company, the printers, right down to the newspaper boy on the street corner!

I was once cheated by a company. I took them to Small Claims and won my case. It cost them about £50. They thought this was hilarious and laughed at me. But he who laughs last, laughs longest! I then published the information on the Internet that I had sued this company, what for, and that I had won my case. The court judgement was caste iron proof that what I said was true. Many customers decided not to risk being treated as I had been treated and withdrew their custom. The company lost business and eventually went bankrupt. I can assure you this is a true story! Be careful out there, it is a minefield. Simply calling someone a defamer can also be defamation -- Justice is not shown blind folded and carrying a two edged sword for nothing.
 
gemstoneflyer13 said:
I have started legal proceedings for this matter however was just wondering what peoples views are on publicly expressing their opinions on companies/business's.
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You must have more money than sense to be able to fund such a case.

The public expression of opinion on companies/business's and services is called 'review' or 'testimonial'. Personally before any substantial purchase or decision I consider making is completed will always be reviewed through whatever means possible, ie trip advisor, the internet, word of mouth, viewing work completed or service provided.

Reputation is earned be it good or bad.
 
Also this forum is not all negative- for example swish horse rugs a small online rug company have had rave reviews in here and I for one bought their rugs because of it. They have earnt themselves an excellent reputation and based upon the product I bought and the dealings I had with that company I would say it is very much deserved. So it can go either way for a company and I think it's good that customers have been empowerd a bit more and can now pick and chose who they buy from based on others experiences. If a company if treating customers unfairly or making poor quality products it is important for people to know and if that means they discuss their events publicly than so be it.
 
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If its under English law then us Scots can continue to discuss companies ;)

I am assuming OP that your own company has perhaps been the subject of some slating on this forum which is why you're so concerned about it? If Im honest, I believe people should be allowed to discuss whatever they want on a forum or anywhere else. If a company is shoddy then people should know about it. A company wont be slagged off if its decent... As someone has already said, there's also a lot of recommendations of products etc. on here therefore it has to go both ways!
 
I would agree with your plight OP if the comments made on these companies were totally false.

More often than not though you find these threads come about as an innocent party will buy a product from a company and find themselves out of pocket, being ignored or never receiving goods. So what do people do? They come here to a very public forum to find out if they are the only ones that have experienced this from certain companies. Then low and behold another who is having the same issue speaks up! They too are upset and annoyed at how they have been treated and rightly so.

As the thread progresses with sorts of companies often many many others are having the same issue. Why post here? Because often the company in question isn't giving them answers or results! Why can't they moan about the service or company? After all most of the time it's them out of pocket and without the goods (in most cases).

90% of the posts on these companies are from folk who feel they have been cheated and fraued.. Not because they are bored on a Friday night.
 
Good luck with your action, OP. The field of internet law is a complicated and ever evolving one!

Leaving aside your question and the validity of your claim, surely your legal advisors have suggested that discussing any on-going legal action on the internet, however obliquely, is a bad idea?
 
TarrSteps said:
Good luck with your action, OP. The field of internet law is a complicated and ever evolving one!

Leaving aside your question and the validity of your claim, surely your legal advisors have suggested that discussing any on-going legal action on the internet, however obliquely, is a bad idea?
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Was just thinking this...

And as already pointed out - defamation/slander/libel only sticks when comments made are proven to be false.

And the posts are too well written to be SMF. Even if they have been copied and pasted from other texts (*cough*plagiarism*cough*).

Or am I defaming the OP's character :D
 
TarrSteps said:
Leaving aside your question and the validity of your claim, surely your legal advisors have suggested that discussing any on-going legal action on the internet, however obliquely, is a bad idea?
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This! And a lawyer I am! (Albeit not English law)

You NEVER discuss ongoing cases. This thread has the potential to be very damaging to any case you may have. The courts are not going to be impressed with an online mudslinging match, I'm afraid.

If you really do have a case, and this is not just an empty threat, then my advice is to delete this thread immediately.
 
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