Horse and rider with extreme issues...

[Dexter]

There are more than enough symptoms. The horse is showing classic symptoms off PSSM 2. There is no vet investigation required. You pull some hairs and send them off.

The horse may not have PSSM, but it has something wrong. It makes me so sad when vets declare something as behavioural just because they cant find the issue. It makes me even sadder than I am yet to meet a vet who knows anything beyond tying up might mean PSSM and thats only if you are lucky, and also isn't correct.

 

[palo1]

There are more than enough symptoms. The horse is showing classic symptoms off PSSM 2. There is no vet investigation required. You pull some hairs and send them off.

The horse may not have PSSM, but it has something wrong. It makes me so sad when vets declare something as behavioural just because they cant find the issue. It makes me even sadder than I am yet to meet a vet who knows anything beyond tying up might mean PSSM and thats only if you are lucky, and also isn't correct.

I know. I too feel a bit sad that sometimes simple things aren't explored but for now I think the owner needs to take a break; she is following her trusted vet's advice and realistically that is not a bad way to proceed.

 

[ycbm]

As for PSSM tests, this has been discussed at some length with the vets but it seems that really there are not enough symptoms or behavioural issues to warrant any further expense or worry.

I'm banging my head on a wall here Palo, I agree with Dexter that the description is a fit for PSSM issues. It seems vets still don't know enough about the disease.

For the sake of about £250 of hair root DNA testing, the horse could be struggling along in daily pain from aching muscles
.

 

[palo1]

I'm banging my head on a wall here Palo, I agree with Dexter that the description is a fit for PSSM issues. It seems vets still don't know enough about the disease.

For the sake of about £250 of hair root DNA testing, the horse could be struggling along in daily pain from aching muscles
.

I understand your sense of frustration; particularly for the horse and for me, those tests would have been done early doors tbh. They are relatively cheap, simple and would provide more insight into behaviour that is just 'not quite right'. BUT, this owner has totally followed her vet's advice and support, she has a long standing and very positive relationship with the vet and has had the best veterinary outcomes previously. I really don't think that approach and investment is wrong. In time, she may feel that other avenues need exploring and I am not the only person who has suggested PSSM testing (several different tests). At the moment she is exhausted emotionally and financially, the horse is being very well looked after and worked very quietly and with as little stress or demands on him mentally and physically as possible. If he gets worse rather than better then I am sure that further advice will be sought tbh. It would drive me mad to leave a couple of tests undone but we are not all the same and I have not had the 2 years of worry and frustration that this lady has had; I am not astonished that she wants to walk away from such heavy duty vet stuff and try to just get on with the horse. It may not be the best but I do understand her point of view.

 

[paddy555]

Forgive the late addition and post.

I would suggest, from my own job here, that the horse might well benefit from an evaluation by a neurologist.

There's a disease that we're seeing here in quite a lot of horses, many from your side of the Atlantic, called Equine Degenerative Myeloencephalopathy. Aka EDM, not to be confused with EPM. (Equine Protazoal Myeloencephalitis).

No way to simply test whether or not a horse has it while alive. You can only definitively confirm in it post mortem samples of the brain and spinal cord.

Lots of symptoms, bigger red flags are changes in behavior and inability to process normal things, like ask it to go forward undersaddle and it can't.

I work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this.

Em

thank you for posting that. Really interesting.

 

[BunnyDog]

thank you for posting that. Really interesting.

I will mention this with a very large grain of salt as a caution, but there is a Facebook group started by a client of ours about EDM.

It's called "Horses With EDM: Information and Support "

https://www.facebook.com/groups/702186200661414

Not ALL the info in there is actually 100% accurate. I am riding a tough line that my job doesn't want me to post much (even non work knowledge related stuff) and I see their point. I can't just willy nilly call people out for incorrect info. So I read a lot of it, but I just can't piss off the employers. So by and large I am quiet. But a lot of the cases mentioned there were seen by the clinic I work for.

It's a horrible disease and I will freely admit that I stare at Chad often and pray over and over that he had enough grass years before I met him. Since he is in the basic category where we see it most. Warmblood imports, 5-10 years old, especially big floaty movers. He's been clean and non neurologic on every annual pre-season check so that's a bit of a relief. But it's a challenge to not think it's everywhere due to my job. It's not "everywhere" in all facts, but it is increasing.

Em

 

[Meowy Catkin]

FI work as the admin for a boarded Equine Neurologist here. Essentially this goes back to how much vitamin E/ fresh pasture the horse's have as a foals. A lacking of Vitamin E leaves the brain itself susceptible to this. BUT I am not a vet. But a ton of horses that came from places in UK/IRE/Europe without lots of pasture are being seen and put down because of this.

Em

I'm just wondering how much time at grass is required. I have bought two yearlings myself and would like to buy another if circumstances ever allow and obviously would like to avoid the above issue.

I know that some foals are kept in for a few days after birth if they have issues, for example they are a dummy foal. Is this enough to cause damage even if they are then turned out once capable?

One of mine was turned out on a grass paddock with his dam during the day, but they were bought in at night. Is this OK, or is it safer to buy a youngster that has had 24/7 turnout from the start?

 

[BunnyDog]

I'm just wondering how much time at grass is required. I have bought two yearlings myself and would like to buy another if circumstances ever allow and obviously would like to avoid the above issue.

I know that some foals are kept in for a few days after birth if they have issues, for example they are a dummy foal. Is this enough to cause damage even if they are then turned out once capable?

One of mine was turned out on a grass paddock with his dam during the day, but they were bought in at night. Is this OK, or is it safer to buy a youngster that has had 24/7 turnout from the start?

These are all great questions that my knowledge doesn't quite extend to. I will see what I can find out for you.

Em

 

[palo1]

Update February 2022!!

Just under a year after I first posted I thought I would update - it may be interesting for others!! Friend and horse are still together and are now working in a brilliant partnership It is really lovely to see tbh after so many problems. In brief, the horse was treated for ulcers, saddle fitter and fitting was changed, bridlery and lorinery all carefully considered and some low level flatwork was continued. There were small chinks of light but eventually my lovely friend took the horse for a couple of sessions to a more classical type of trainer. She just wanted to know what the issues were really as all physical things had by then been excluded. In 2 sessions this awkward unhappy horse was more or less turned round - though with lots of work from the rider at home. The key things that were embedded were the improvement of the rider's position (pretty 'normal' ordinarily; not fabulous and not awful by any stretch but a standard sort of RS position) and absolute thinking-ness and clarity of aids and ask from the rider in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of their ridden or in-hand work - for a while at least. This was very hard work for my friend who is much more accostomed to a horse that doesn't need this. She took it all on though.

They have both done so brilliantly tbh and have been out to local UA dressage where horse performed sweetly if not with passion for the job!! He is also jumping nicely and hacking out on his own and in company really politely and with a smile on his face. The other really important thing for this horse was a reduction in his workload - he usually has a day off after a longer ride and the work is tailored to his temperament. He is a beautiful horse but has a slight work ethic issue lol!! Obviously every horse is different and needs different input and circumstances to thrive but absolute hats off to my lovely friend for persevering to find the right ingredients for her super chap.

Of course she has now been offered mega-money for him but wouldn't sell him for the world. He has a lovely home for life hopefully. Happy times.

 

[Mule]

Update February 2022!!

Just under a year after I first posted I thought I would update - it may be interesting for others!! Friend and horse are still together and are now working in a brilliant partnership It is really lovely to see tbh after so many problems. In brief, the horse was treated for ulcers, saddle fitter and fitting was changed, bridlery and lorinery all carefully considered and some low level flatwork was continued. There were small chinks of light but eventually my lovely friend took the horse for a couple of sessions to a more classical type of trainer. She just wanted to know what the issues were really as all physical things had by then been excluded. In 2 sessions this awkward unhappy horse was more or less turned round - though with lots of work from the rider at home. The key things that were embedded were the improvement of the rider's position (pretty 'normal' ordinarily; not fabulous and not awful by any stretch but a standard sort of RS position) and absolute thinking-ness and clarity of aids and ask from the rider in EVERY SINGLE MOMENT of their ridden or in-hand work - for a while at least. This was very hard work for my friend who is much more accostomed to a horse that doesn't need this. She took it all on though.

They have both done so brilliantly tbh and have been out to local UA dressage where horse performed sweetly if not with passion for the job!! He is also jumping nicely and hacking out on his own and in company really politely and with a smile on his face. The other really important thing for this horse was a reduction in his workload - he usually has a day off after a longer ride and the work is tailored to his temperament. He is a beautiful horse but has a slight work ethic issue lol!! Obviously every horse is different and needs different input and circumstances to thrive but absolute hats off to my lovely friend for persevering to find the right ingredients for her super chap.

Of course she has now been offered mega-money for him but wouldn't sell him for the world. He has a lovely home for life hopefully. Happy times.

That's fab

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thank for the brilliant update.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Great news

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

That is wonderful news! Lucky horse!

 

[Orangehorse]

Great news.

Great trainer too.

 

[Goldenstar]

That’s really nice to hear .

 

[Wizpop]

That is so fantastic to read! What an amazing lady to persevere with this unhappy horse and to now have this lovely partnership- truly a very special relationship.?

 

[Jeni the dragon]

What a lovely update!

 

[palo1]

Great news.

Great trainer too.

Yes; this trainer could see what the issues were and relatively minor changes really altered the dynamic and mental comfort of both horse and rider. Tis marvellous!!

 

[palo1]

That is so fantastic to read! What an amazing lady to persevere with this unhappy horse and to now have this lovely partnership- truly a very special relationship.?

Yes, it really is now and my friend has the super horse she has always wanted and deserves and her sweet, slightly complex chap has a home that will love and care for him as he needs. He is one lucky horse!!

 

[Bernster]

Always nice to read an update and great that it’s such a positive one!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That’s great. What a wonderful outcome x

 

[Equi]

Glad your friend has had a good outcome. Saddle fit really makes a difference, and not all saddle fitters are good. So that potentially has made a massive difference to him. I also understand the work ethic thing.. i always said my horses go better after a break and by break i mean a couple of days. Not all horses need or want to be ridden daily.