Horse and rider with extreme issues...

[palo1]

I am witness to a very unhappy horse and rider partnership atm. Owner has bought a very smart ISH for drag hunting, hacking and general non-competitive riding. Horse was in the 5 figure sum bracket; lovely conformation, well bred etc etc Horse is super smart looking, 9 yo and had a successful 5 stage vetting with a few minor notes; more on this later. Sale was about 18 months ago. Prior to this the horse had several owners on his passport - none for longer than about a year. Horse has every comfort and has also been scoped and treated for gastric ulcers since purchase Ulcers were considered to be the root of several problems but in spite of several clear scopes and several thousands on various vet, dental and saddle checks/changes of tack things are no better. I think the only thing he hasn't had is scans of his suspensories/legs and equine vets feel he is actually supremely sound in his movement (when they can get him to actually move at all) ! I think that several thousand pounds have been spent on real veterinary checks and nothing at all has been found to be an issue. The horse has actually done hardly any work in his life it transpires because of his issues though the ulcers clearly would have had an impact on him; for how long, who knows? He seems perfectly normal in the field and leads most places ok. He is pretty relaxed about going out to lessons etc though he is not especially keen on that. He will, however, work through a 45 minute flatwork and jumping lesson without horrible planting, napping. He is 'ok' out drag hunting actually though the owner has taken that very steadily due to ulcers and generally wanting to look after him and not make anything worse. He will nap a bit but it is much more manageable in that situation and owner just tends to go with the flow. He won't go off on his own but he will always leave the field to go home! He loves going home...

The owner has improved some things; like loading which was initially an issue but really serious problems still continue and appear to be worsening This horse is the worst napper I have ever come across. It has taken his rider 18 months to achieve a solo hack of 2 miles (almost in every sense!!). The horse will stop and become utterly wooden up to 20 times on this ride though he will now do a basic block with only a few minor pauses....He is not much better, if better at all in company - other horses neither interest him nor inspire him to keep going. He is happy to see a hacking companion move away and literally nothing makes a difference if he has decided to plant though he will ALWAYS and very reliably head home. That is the only time he is reasonably behaved.

Anything new at all, any deviation of route, route he hasn't travelled for a while he will plant and either reverse (not known to rear) or become utterly wooden; no circling possible, just nothing!! Owner has tried strong tactics - using a whip as well as positive and gentle encouragement. Usually the owner will get off and lead past the moment of napping but sometimes this horse won't even consent to lead past. He will not take the lead and will stop all the time to look at puddles, piles of horse poo, the view - goodness knows what!! He has the slowest walk ever, is utterly unmotivated but never spooks as such. However, on open ground - if and once he has consented to get there, he becomes really unpredictable; often squealing, bucking and becoming very strong. He is frightening his rider now as he appears to be truly unable to take any real instruction from her; both forwards generally and in terms of his ridden manners.

His poor owner is utterly downhearted now. She wants him to have a home for life and was very invested emotionally (as well as financially) in his purchase but feels absolutely out of her depth now with his issues. She does NOT want to sell or move him on but wants to resolve the issues so that she can at least hack out in company and enjoy a safe trot and canter in a field/fun ride etc.

Money is not really an issue but vets, dentists and saddle fitter are genuinely confident that physical issues are not the problem. This is probably this lady's last riding horse - it is currently devastating her confidence and enjoyment of horses which essentially are central to her lifestyle.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how to deal with this? I would sell him, with full disclosure at a significant financial loss and be sad but relieved but I don't think that course of action is open at the moment.

 

[ihatework]

Life is too short. Confidence is too fragile. I had one of these once when I was younger and I know enough now that you can’t make them all.

Unless there is a very clear job that he enjoys (in which case I’d lian him for that), then I’d retire him to the field and get a horse more suited to my needs.

Sometimes the best thing for the horse is knowing when to quit

 

[RachelFerd]

That sounds utterly frustrating given that it seems like all the care and professional attention is being attended to thoroughly by your description.

I don't think you could make a sale with full disclosure to anyone other than someone in the dodgy dealing space - so that wouldn't be an option for me, although could understand why others would choose it.

For me I would insist on nerve blocks and a poor performance work up at vets, just to be able to rule out hind suspensory issues.

Then, it's a classic situation in which a 'problem horse' specialist - pref with some serious understanding of equine behaviour science to step in and work through the problem. I don't have a specific recommendation for who that might be though!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I wouldn't think it ethical to sell him on, tbh. There is obviously a problem that the horse is trying to tell his owner about but this problem is well hidden. Do you know what he is fed on? If he were my horse, I would cut his feed right back to hay/grass only and monitor his behaviour for at least a month. I might also suspect hindgut ulcers, which I believe are very difficult to detect. If all else fails, I would retire/pts this horse and buy another which is more suited to the work required. Having been in a similar position to the owner, I sympathise. Our problem was eventually found to be feed related.

 

[Cortez]

Has anybody got in a professional trainer?

 

[palo1]

I wouldn't think it ethical to sell him on, tbh. There is obviously a problem that the horse is trying to tell his owner about but this problem is well hidden. Do you know what he is fed on? If he were my horse, I would cut his feed right back to hay/grass only and monitor his behaviour for at least a month. I might also suspect hindgut ulcers, which I believe are very difficult to detect. If all else fails, I would retire/pts this horse and buy another which is more suited to the work required. Having been in a similar position to the owner, I sympathise. Our problem was eventually found to be feed related.

He has been tried on hay only and now has an ulcer friendly supplement added to chaff. He is never without forage and never fed hard food. His condition is just about perfect I would say. There clearly is a problem and it may well be physical; he has had scans of his back and hocks but not suspensories I don't think - that would be potentially a good thing though possibly his owner is exhausted by continual veterinary investigations at this point. I agree that it may be difficult to sell him though a young male rider has ridden him and found a way to get him to work; by absolute persistence and utter insistence on working under saddle with acceptable manners before he was allowed home. Sadly his owner doesn't want to or doesn't feel able to ride that strongly and so doesn't feel that is the best way forward.

 

[palo1]

Has anybody got in a professional trainer?

His owner has been taking him for professional training (her riding) and a trainer has taken him hunting on several occasions. The trainer who hunted him offered a reasonable sum for him too. I understand that they had a couple of 'conversations' (horse and hunting trainer) but of course hunting this horse is actually one of the easier activities...I would say that a decent trainer has not had chance to experience the full gamut of this horse's habits! For me, I wonder if he had issues at foaling - he is, in many ways a very strange beast.

 

[Cortez]

He has been tried on hay only and now has an ulcer friendly supplement added to chaff. He is never without forage and never fed hard food. His condition is just about perfect I would say. There clearly is a problem and it may well be physical; he has had scans of his back and hocks but not suspensories I don't think - that would be potentially a good thing though possibly his owner is exhausted by continual veterinary investigations at this point. I agree that it may be difficult to sell him though a young male rider has ridden him and found a way to get him to work; by absolute persistence and utter insistence on working under saddle with acceptable manners before he was allowed home. Sadly his owner doesn't want to or doesn't feel able to ride that strongly and so doesn't feel that is the best way forward.

So a pro has had success, but the owner is not capable of riding him. Sell him to a more suitable home.

 

[palo1]

So a pro has had success, but the owner is not capable of riding him. Sell him to a more suitable home.

I think so. I believe, with horse and rider's best interests at heart that he should go to a hunting home where he may be ridden in a more 'black and white' manner and would only really be asked to do the one job that he finds tolerable. That may not work well in all honesty as he is not suitable as a hunt staff horse and he may be appallingly difficult to deal with for someone less tolerant and patient. He bites too though that could and definately should be dealt with as a matter of urgent priority. He once turned to me whilst I was standing chatting next to my friend (me riding also) and tried removing my kneecap with his teeth. I have no idea why or what prompted this after several minutes of standing perfectly nicely...I don't stand so close to him any more though lol!! The problem with the pro hunting him was that hunting is really the thing that he finds easiest - it doesn't quite reveal the extent of his issues!!

ETA - the young male rider who got him working is not a pro (in fact is my son who is full of joy for an awkward large horse). It is not something that I think could work on a regular basis (and we certainly don't want the blooming horse!!) But it does suggest that a different rider might have more luck...

 

[PapaverFollis]

If I was this lady and someone wanted the horse to hunt and the horse would do that job for that person then I would potentially sell to that person and move on. I might loan to the hunting home so that he didn't then get sold on and lost if that's what I preferred. Would depend on the horse.

Horses are too big, too expensive, too potentially dangerous to be able to hold on to sentimentality all the time. Sometimes it just doesn't work.

 

[palo1]

I so wish that the owner of this horse could see this and either pass him to someone that wants him via sale or loan, pts or retired to the field though he is young and also a bit of a pain to deal with in that setting!! However, at this point she seems intent on finding a compromise so that she can hang on in there with him and keep trying to ride him in a very limited way. She has already been advised by others to sell/move him on. I fear that she is in a downward spiral that will be entirely unrewarding and potentially very dangerous with this horse. At the moment she is basically restricted to walk and trot and horse is clearly fit and on occasion full of life...It is horrible for both and I am full of foreboding about the future of this partnership

 

[ycbm]

Has anyone considered PSSM? With everything else ruled out, that or a deeply hidden physical issue would top my list.

I've seen and heard of plenty of horses in pain persuaded to work by strong riders and unwittingly probably done it myself to at least one horse in the past, so I don't necessarily think the fact that the Pro could ride him is a good indicator. I'd go more on the ownership record, the horse has been passed from one home to another.
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It sounds really sad, palo, but I'm not sure that there's a lot you can do. It obviously depends on your relationship with the lady too.

A test for PSSM1 as ycbm suggests or a vitamin E trial are probably worth doing even if the lady has reached veterinary intervention burnout. Relatively easy and cheap to check.

 

[P.forpony]

I was just about to suggest pssm too.
As there seems to have been quite a comprehensive investigation of all other potential issues, this would be my next thought.
A Vit E trial is very cheap and easy to do and results are obvious pretty quickly. Or go the whole hog with bloods (CK and AST) hair samples and biopsies if money is no object.

 

[palo1]

Has anyone considered PSSM? With everything else ruled out, that or a deeply hidden physical issue would top my list.

I've seen and heard of plenty of horses in pain persuaded to work by strong riders and unwittingly probably done it myself to at least one horse in the past, so I don't necessarily think the fact that the Pro could ride him is a good indicator. I'd go more on the ownership record, the horse has been passed from one home to another.
.

The horse has been tested negative for PSSM and not responded to a Vit E trial though to my mind that wasn't taken seriously by the vet and the owner probably didn't actually give a high enough dose to clarify that. The owner is very, very 'establishment' and reluctant to trial even easy things in all honesty; she feels that the vet will have a clear cut answer and process which is preferable to informed experimentation which is fair enough I guess. But I agree that this is a possibility.

 

[oldie48]

If she is prepared to spend the money I'd have a performance vet have a look at him. I don't know where she is in the country but I could recommend someone who is completely trustworthy and does travel quite extensively. I think if she knows there is or isn't something physical going on, it might be easier for her to make a decision.

 

[palo1]

It sounds really sad, palo, but I'm not sure that there's a lot you can do. It obviously depends on your relationship with the lady too.

A test for PSSM1 as ycbm suggests or a vitamin E trial are probably worth doing even if the lady has reached veterinary intervention burnout. Relatively easy and cheap to check.

Thank you. Yes it is horribly sad, frustrating and rather frightening to watch how badly things are going. This lady is a very good friend of mine - I love her dearly and do not want her hurt. At the same time I hate seeing such an unhappy, unwilling horse. Thankfully, with our own horses keeping us busy and no emotional investment in my friend's horse the only real impact on me is the consequence of her spiralling confidence and joie de vivre which is having an effect on me. I am able to ride and enjoy my horses in lots of other ways and my older horse certainly is not affected by anything that my friend's horse does which means we can still ride together - albeit with her in pieces My young horse will have other, more helpful hacking companions too. It is just something that I wonder if other people might have other ideas about what could be done. To my way of thinking a high dose of Vit E for a few weeks/months would be easy, cheap etc and then I would be looking to sell with full disclosure to the already interested party or to PTS. I know buying a nice horse can be a minefield but that is no reason to hang on to an absolutely unsuitable one!!

 

[palo1]

If she is prepared to spend the money I'd have a performance vet have a look at him. I don't know where she is in the country but I could recommend someone who is completely trustworthy and does travel quite extensively. I think if she knows there is or isn't something physical going on, it might be easier for her to make a decision.

I think that would be really useful but I strongly suspect that the specialist equine vet/hospital the horse has already been seen by on multiple occasions would be viewed as 'good enough' even though a different vet might have a usefully different view; or even a concurrent one!! As so much money has already been spent I can understand the reluctance to shell out more on a horse that so many vets/investigations have found to be essentially sound and healthy.

 

[Nicnac]

Gosh she should sell him to a more suitable home - he's never going to be what she wants. A bit like an alcoholic, you've got to let her get to rock bottom (and hope she doesn't get hurt) and let her make the decision herself as frustrating as it is for you to watch. Just be there for her but step away as sounds like she won't take others advice onboard.

 

[milliepops]

I agree with lots of the above
the behaviour sounds oh-so-familiar to my own superstar/horrid little goblin and so my personal POV from my experiences would be

as above attempt to get one of the chiro vets or other performance specialist as a one-off exercise to just tick that box
and then I'd go off piste and try and find a pro who is a bit more horse-centric, what you might call natural horsemanship but I wouldn't want a branded practitioner of a set type, I would want someone who really can read a horse properly, spend as long as it takes to learn how to speak to this one, and find out what the horse is good at or wants to do.
and then only try and do that with it. if that isn't what the owner wanted, then a very careful loan may work.

Mine was supposed to be a do-up-and-sell riding club prospect, I was going to take her cubbing, do some clear round SJ, a fun ride and dressage test and sell to someone wanting a small allrounder.
She did not want to do that, not one bit, she won't jump, she won't hack, she doesn't care what her hacking companion does as she's not interested.... the ONLY thing she has ever been happy to do is prance about in an arena learning fancy tricks. And that is how I have ended up attempting to train a 14hh furious welsh cob at GP.

 

[oldie48]

I think that would be really useful but I strongly suspect that the specialist equine vet/hospital the horse has already been seen by on multiple occasions would be viewed as 'good enough' even though a different vet might have a usefully different view; or even a concurrent one!! As so much money has already been spent I can understand the reluctance to shell out more on a horse that so many vets/investigations have found to be essentially sound and healthy.

I have huge confidence in my local equine hospital, they have referrals from all over the country but I am now a total convert to using a performance vet who does nothing else than look at horses to find out why they are not performing as expected. A horse I know who has had behavioural issues for a long time, has had £Ks spent in vet fees and lots of time off and was currently being treated for hoof issues with very expensive front shoes was seen by the vet I would recommend. He saw the horse trot up and on the lunge, did some nerve blocking and gave a cautionary diagnosis which he then confirmed with scans. Shoes are now off as not required and the horse is being rested with a very guarded prognosis for the future. The owner's next step with her current vets (who are my vets) was an MRI which is hugely expensive! I feel he looks for the primary cause of a problem whereas many vets focus on the symptoms and we all know how well horses can compensate, especially athletic horses with good conformation. I now think of them as those ballet dancers who continue dancing beautifully even with injuries and if he's OK to drag hunt I wonder if your friend's horse has the added adrenaline rush that keeps him on side.

 

[conniegirl]

I think the only thing he hasn't had is scans of his suspensories/legs and equine vets feel he is actually supremely sound in his movement

First thing i would do is get a full set of scans of his legs. I’d also get a bone scan done.

I had a pony who had issues under saddle, one of the top vet hospitals in the country had him in for a full work up and declared him as one of the soundest ponies they had seen in a while.
I insisted on a bone scan as the behaviour just wasn’t right for that pony.
He had fractured his pelvis in 3 places and yes he was sound, until you asked him to use his bum properly at which point he was in pain and he freaked out so badly that no one could sit him.

 

[southerncomfort]

Could she get in someone like Richard Maxwell to have a look?

 

[milliepops]

I agree with lots of the above
the behaviour sounds oh-so-familiar to my own superstar/horrid little goblin and so my personal POV from my experiences would be

as above attempt to get one of the chiro vets or other performance specialist as a one-off exercise to just tick that box
and then I'd go off piste and try and find a pro who is a bit more horse-centric, what you might call natural horsemanship but I wouldn't want a branded practitioner of a set type, I would want someone who really can read a horse properly, spend as long as it takes to learn how to speak to this one, and find out what the horse is good at or wants to do.
and then only try and do that with it. if that isn't what the owner wanted, then a very careful loan may work.

Mine was supposed to be a do-up-and-sell riding club prospect, I was going to take her cubbing, do some clear round SJ, a fun ride and dressage test and sell to someone wanting a small allrounder.
She did not want to do that, not one bit, she won't jump, she won't hack, she doesn't care what her hacking companion does as she's not interested.... the ONLY thing she has ever been happy to do is prance about in an arena learning fancy tricks. And that is how I have ended up attempting to train a 14hh furious welsh cob at GP.

to all this, i would add, even if you find a thing that the horse agrees to do, it will probably always be a tricky character. When not plagued by hormonal trouble mine really does appear to enjoy her work, she loved learning changes and really lights up when she has got the measure of a new thing.

but she's still always difficult, she will always be a square peg even in the dressage hole and I always have to be mindful of training her in a way that doesn't trigger an attack of the NOs, napping, reversing and rearing are her go-to things and it can happen if I just get something wrong, for her it's about her mind being supple enough each day for the work and if I don't keep on top of that throughout a session then she will throw a big NO (though most often if I work through the NO she will carry on as though it never happened).

so if the owner is not up for that kind of introspective, analytical riding then it's probably better to accept defeat. i find it fascinating but I very much accept progress is not linear and there are bad days as well as lovely wonderful ones.

 

[lolabelle36]

Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.

 

[J&S]

I wonder if he was a hand reared foal? Friends of mine hand reared a foal off the NF and he grew into a big strapping lad. Very experienced horsey family. His behaviour once broken in sounds very similar to this horse. Their pony/small horse would even get completely "stuck" on the way home too! They also got a man to ride him and try to get him through what they thought was a phase but he never really changed. He just became a field ornament/companion.

 

[palo1]

Thank you all. So helpful to have confirmation of what I think she and I know. I have actually spoken to my friend today - finally she has admitted that she can't cope on her own and is going to try a Vit E trial, discuss recurrence of ulcers with her vet and investigate a suitable pro to have a discussion with. I have stressed how fearful I feel for her safety and she is absolutely determined to try to do right by the horse whatever that is. I personally think there is a medical issue but not sure how or if this will be identified. My friend is happy enough to accept some compromises - only hacking in company etc and to spend more money on necessary diagnostics. She has also admitted for the first time that if a lovely horse came along that she knew would work, this one could be sold to the gent who has been interested in him. For me, as long as there are no veterinary/medical issues that would be the very best outcome. It is just utterly exhausting for her. I think she knows that this horse will never be the easy going friend that she thought she was buying. Poor horse has had lots of homes and clearly has had some years of trouble even though he has been valued quite highly in financial terms. I am certain that most of those homes knew there was something really amiss with this chap. I certainly don't think that my lovely friend would be up for introspective, analytical riding @milliepops!! I have previously had to work with a horse like that and found it rewarding, however I would not have this horse if I was paid to take him as I see nothing but heartache ahead with him

 

[milliepops]

sounds like progress. if the horse is checked out one last time and has someone interested to do stuff the horse can tolerate then that's probably the best outcome for your friend and she ought to sell and THEN look for something else. Hope it has a good outcome for the horse too.

I did find that my own outlook towards my tricky girl was a big factor, when I stopped looking at her as a bloody nightmare on 4 legs and started to see the good in her, our relationship improved 100x. very very hard to do when you're down an awful hole though, and perhaps someone different who knew what they were getting could achieve that.

 

[PurBee]

It’s a sorry situation but i think matching horse to rider isnt just a case of us picking any horse we want.
Certainly from the responses on here ive read over the years, ive come to realise that the match has to work otherwise so many issues arise.

If someone is able to successfully ride him ‘stronger’ - and your friend doesnt want to ride like that, it suggests that a firm person suits him.
Perhaps this is due to him having many owners/homes in his short life, and he really doesnt settle well, feels nervous, and so takes a very calm, confident, sure, yet firm persona to handle and ride him.

My gelding is like this - he is best behaved around mostly men, men who are calm yet firm. With me he’s more of a prat because im naturally gentle and easy-going, and he can mirror my anguish if he can provoke it in me. He’s learnt he can spook and cause a reaction in me. Once i realised it was about me, my nature, i ’adopt’ a more firm, no-nonsense attitude with him, when he’s stressed i adopt calmness, its not my natural state around a stressed horse, i get stressed due to them...so has taken years of practice to keep my mindset very calm. It’s not easy. But ive seen the proof of it working.

Youre friend could try a behavioural equine trainer, and she should be there to observe how they interact with the horse. Some horses do well with a gentle approach, i prefer those horses personally!....yet some DO unfortunately require a no-nonsense firm, calm , unshakable handler and rider.
If your friend is not that firm confident persona, she needs to realise that, and consider selling him, or changing her attitude/behaviour with the horse.

 

[Flame_]

Try to get her to ride something else for a while that inspires enough joy to make her see there needs to be a point where she stops pouring time, money and emotion into a horse that isn't showing any signs of ever offering anything back.

Hopefully she'll get there but some people commit to liability horses forever no matter what and it is their choice.