Horse attacking people - biting, dragging while biting and attempting to kick. HELP!

[KittenInTheTree]

Never once said it was, 12 horses 12 stalls can’t be moving them when paddocks are water logged with zero stable free to put him. Also, if he violently attacks humans in a 5 acre pasture the behaviour needs sorting. We don’t all have the ideal set up and hours of spare time a day particularly not as I said with a very unwell (long term) two year old son sorry if I’m coming across thick by not grasping the ‘not rocket science’ narrative. But since when was a horse with aggressive tendencies towards humans okay?! Has the horse world gone mad? Do we make excuses for this nonsense now! He could have killed someone.

I would consider it very stupid to enter the stable with him, but others may disagree. As for the not rocket science remark, frankly I am simply tired of people over complicating things like this. The horse has for whatever reason, attacked you. He cannot be allowed to keep doing so. Secure him away from where you are working when doing jobs in the stable. Cross tie him to groom and rug, etc. If there is no extra stable, then you need a tie up area, ideally outside the stable.

 

[HannahKate98]

Yes. He's six, and might just be being a prat. But that's probably not what you had in mind, so how about we do the usual checklist of food triggers? Soya, alfalfa, cereals, herbs - what's in his feed? More importantly, what isn't in it that he might have been exposed to by a third party? The bad behaviour is said to have only started recently, and the OP said that his feed hadn't changed, BUT might someone be feeding him treats or such over the fence?

This is a good train of thought and yesterday after the bad behaviours of late we fenced an internal stretch to prevent him from being close to the gate which boarders a public footpath. So if this is an issue hopefully it won’t be any longer.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

In 50 years of being around hundreds, probably thousands by now, of horses I have never met a single horse who would fit this description. There has always, always, been physical or mental turmoil, or sex drive, involved.

Some of the worst are orphan foals brought up by loving humans who simply never learn boundaries, but that isn't the case here.
.

I could debate this with you, but I can't be bothered. Although, I will grant that Caerbannog Syndrome should count as a potential underlying cause for poor behaviour.

 

[Sanversera]

A bl##£y good smack when he kicks out or goes for you. Once and hard.

 

[ycbm]

I could debate this with you, but I can't be bothered.

Please feel free to tell me about your own experience but you really can't debate me about mine. It is what it is.

I think your definition of mental pain in a horse probably differs a fair bit from mine.
.

 

[ycbm]

That’s fantastic advice thank you! I’ve heard people say they feed it, never knew what for until now. I’ll definitely give that a go!

5l on Ebay for about £35, give 100ml in 2 feeds to start and reduce down to 50ml a day over time if you can.
.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I think the crux of the matter with food aggression is that all animals need to be taught right from get go that they are not allowed to become aggressive with food or anything else.

But once you have established that you can enforce that rule if needed in an emergency let the poor animal eat in peace. Not much to ask surely.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

In 50 years of being around hundreds, probably thousands by now, of horses I have never met a single horse who would fit this description. There has always, always, been physical or mental turmoil, or sex drive, involved.

Some of the worst are orphan foals brought up by loving humans who simply never learn boundaries, but that isn't the case here.
.

There is one on my yard, will turn his bum on you, try and kick you, rear up and strike out simply because he wants the owner to sod off and they have allowed it to happen and laughed it off. He learnt that he could do this behaviour to get what he wants, and so he will do it.

OP, sorry for all the flack you are getting on here, some posters seem to have fabricated a story and are intent on lambasting you for what they have decided you do - laughable really. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, my guess would also be ulcers. Does he crib? There have been studies that have shown that crib bitera are more sensitive to tactile stimulation than non-crib biters, so it could just be that he learnt by raising a leg that he could get you to leave him alone, and so has moved that behaviour to all unwanted interaction with you

 

[HannahKate98]

There is one on my yard, will turn his bum on you, try and kick you, rear up and strike out simply because he wants the owner to sod off and they have allowed it to happen and laughed it off. He learnt that he could do this behaviour to get what he wants, and so he will do it.

OP, sorry for all the flack you are getting on here, some posters seem to have fabricated a story and are intent on lambasting you for what they have decided you do - laughable really. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, my guess would also be ulcers. Does he crib? There have been studies that have shown that crib bitera are more sensitive to tactile stimulation than non-crib biters, so it could just be that he learnt by raising a leg that he could get you to leave him alone, and so has moved that behaviour to all unwanted interaction with you

Thank you for being supportive.

That’s super interesting he does crib when there is a lot going on around him, turning others out, farrier/vet presence etc. that has me super curious now! It’s never bad no more than a few seconds at a time but it’s something he arrived doing. I never would have thought the two could be in some way connected. Thinking about it would the cribbing have potential to cause or exacerbate ulcers?

 

[skinnydipper]

And it's perfectly normal to be able to take food away from dogs, so ignore that noise.

Food is a valuable resource, essential for survival

Food aggression/resource guarding occurs when a dog is worried that a person or another dog is going to take their food. There is no need to create anxiety around food by removing it from them as some sort of misguided training exercise.

Please refrain from posting if there is absolutely nothing constructive to your post, it’s a waste of everybody’s effort including your own.

Teach your dogs to go to their place at mealtimes and have them stay there until they have all finished. You don't want to create any anxiety around food caused by people or other dogs bothering them when they are eating.

Put the dog that you say takes an hour to eat in a room on his/her own with their meal so they can relax and eat in peace.



NB. The OP brought dogs into the discussion when she said

The same way my dogs are handled at feeding time to ensure they don’t snap at my child or one another if they happen to be in close proximity though this is avoided at all costs,

 

[Pearlsasinger]

This is a good train of thought and yesterday after the bad behaviours of late we fenced an internal stretch to prevent him from being close to the gate which boarders a public footpath. So if this is an issue hopefully it won’t be any longer.

We have had problems for years with people feeding our horses from a footpath which runs round the outside of most of our boundary.

We have recently paid ££thousands to have the boundary hedged and fenced with post and horse proof wire. Then we have electric inside and outside the fence, all inside a dry stone wall.

And have we noticed the difference!
The cob has been struggling with skin problems for 18 months. And lo! and behold! Now that passersby can't get to feed them, her skin has healed and most of the hair has grown back. She wasn't anywhere near as upset as your horse, OP, but she has had grumpy spells with us and her field mate while all this has been going on.

I would suspect that someone has been feeding him on something that he shouldn't have and I wouldn't trust fencing him back from the boundary to sort it. We realised just after putting all the electric in place that we had left a gap round some established bushes and that was where someone had climbed up the wall, shimmyed through/round the bushes and leant across the fencing to feed them. We found a paper bun/mince-pie case on the ground inside the field but outside the fence just by the part of the fence that had been pulled out. We think the bossy cob had caught the buckle of her rug on the offset electric and pulled back in a panic, pulling a wooden post and several offset pins out. Sister found her at 11.00pm with the electric rope round her legs. Needless to say we rectified our mistake and added a(nother) stretch of wire to the outside layer.

And there has been no evidence of interference since. We have seen a photo on FB though posted by a neighbour who was kissing one of our horses over the previous electric fencing!. Fortunately she has relocated since then, or we would have been having words!

 

[HannahKate98]

Food is a valuable resource, essential for survival

Food aggression/resource guarding occurs when a dog is worried that a person or another dog is going to take their food. There is no need to create anxiety around food by removing it from them as some sort of misguided training exercise.



Teach your dogs to go to their place at mealtimes and have them stay there until they have all finished. You don't want to create any anxiety around food caused by people or other dogs bothering them when they are eating.

Put the dog that you say takes an hour to eat in a room on his/her own with their meal so they can relax and eat in peace.



NB. The OP brought dogs into the discussion when she said

Fully understand it’s a valuable resource and it is not removed ever until they have finished unless for a specific reason- they start growling at one another or if we have to (rarely but nevertheless needed) access the units behind where they eat. There is no where else for them to eat but in front of the units that house my son’s medical supplies. The food is ALWAYS returned as swiftly as possibly generally a case of, ‘sit, wait’ grab the bowl out of the way to access equipment etc, ‘paw, ready, eat’. With a pat on the shoulder as they listen to the commands.

So no misguided training exercises, the dogs have to be able to cope with real life situations. Unfortunately I’m not able to time my son’s need for medical equipment trust me I’d be a millionaire if I cracked that one. 12 horses currently and dogs with one HORSE being an issue and not just at meal times.

I disagree with aggression being okay at meal times, the horses are not messed with at meal times I generally take a quick walk around the ones in paddocks while they are eating without touching to check for cuts before they all trot off to the other side together. Rarely I will need to touch them but if I do for whatever reason, the expectation of not getting savaged is there and very much real.

Same with the dogs, why on earth would rehoming places put such emphasis on handling dogs at treat times etc before saying they are safe to rehome if it’s not a concern. These are my beliefs and I have yet to experience ANY issues at meal times with my dogs. The aggression with my horse has never been there at meal times and is now there when food isn’t involved either, one episode with food present, one without.

Generally my animals must be easy to do due to the likely situation we have to spend a night in hospital with my son - which in almost 3 years has been A LOT.

I don’t expect everyone to understand as everyone has different circumstances but I will never make excuses for attacking human - food or otherwise. If pain is present it needs treating which is why the vet is due out to check. Over a simple slack handful of grain you can think again. ‘Sorry can’t come to work today my horse lunged across a paddock because he saw me walking past an thought I had grain then proceeded to blindly attack’ that’s ridiculous Bad behaviour is bad behaviour end of, if there isn’t a medical issue is isn’t acceptable. Otherwise no one would dare enter a stable with a haynet in, or a paddock with grass - it’s all food at the end of the day.

 

[HannahKate98]

We have had problems for years with people feeding our horses from a footpath which runs round the outside of most of our boundary.

We have recently paid ££thousands to have the boundary hedged and fenced with post and horse proof wire. Then we have electric inside and outside the fence, all inside a dry stone wall.

And have we noticed the difference!
The cob has been struggling with skin problems for 18 months. And lo! and behold! Now that passersby can't get to feed them, her skin has healed and most of the hair has grown back. She wasn't anywhere near as upset as your horse, OP, but she has had grumpy spells with us and her field mate while all this has been going on.

I would suspect that someone has been feeding him on something that he shouldn't have and I wouldn't trust fencing him back from the boundary to sort it. We realised just after putting all the electric in place that we had left a gap round some established bushes and that was where someone had climbed up the wall, shimmyed through/round the bushes and leant across the fencing to feed them. We found a paper bun/mince-pie case on the ground inside the field but outside the fence just by the part of the fence that had been pulled out. We think the bossy cob had caught the buckle of her rug on the offset electric and pulled back in a panic, pulling a wooden post and several offset pins out. Sister found her at 11.00pm with the electric rope round her legs. Needless to say we rectified our mistake and added a(nother) stretch of wire to the outside layer.

And there has been no evidence of interference since. We have seen a photo on FB though posted by a neighbour who was kissing one of our horses over the previous electric fencing!. Fortunately she has relocated since then, or we would have been having words!

Oh my gosh! Hopefully our new fenced area is going to stop or prevent issues such as these! Thank you x

 

[skinnydipper]

it is not removed ever until they have finished unless for a specific reason- they start growling at one another

You need to ask yourself why they are growling at each other and change the way you do things to prevent that happening.

Same with the dogs, why on earth would rehoming places put such emphasis on handling dogs at treat times etc before saying they are safe to rehome if it’s not a concern

Our experience of adopting dogs from rescues is vastly different. None of the rescues that I adopted 8 dogs from advised me to handle them when eating their meal. I can't imagine any decent trainer would either.

Though I do have experience of adopting a dog who when I adopted her had a problem with resource guarding her food.

 

[HannahKate98]

You need to ask yourself why they are growling at each other and change the way you do things to prevent that happening.



Our experience of adopting dogs from rescues is vastly different. None of the rescues that I adopted 8 dogs from advised me to handle them when eating their meal. I can't imagine any decent trainer would either.

I do have experience of adopting a dog who when I adopted her had a problem with resource guarding her food but I'm sure you are not interested in the steps I took to resolve that.

Have you never watched RSPCA and Dogs Trust etc etc, they literally handle dogs using a glove on a stick at meal times… so yes, reputable rehoming facilities.

They growl at one another during seasons mostly particularly of both bitches are in heat at the same time. So that’s self explanatory so the steps aren’t necessary.

We work with a team of trainers that train dogs for Africa for the anti poaching measures, personal protection dogs and family pets. I trust my trainers and they work fantastically with my small animal vet particularly when we had one with a pyometra; surgically resolved subsequent phantom pregnancies and erratic behaviour. Between the trainers, vet and ourselves strict synthetic hormones were administered and continue to be to this day (she’s 10 pyo at 2) and training/work continued. My animals are my entire life and I can assure you, individuals who work with my animals are reputable and work with advice of trained veterinary professionals who have seen, check, tested, medicated and monitored my dogs for 8 years.

If you feel as an adopter you are better suited than the professionals to prescribe meds for and work with my dogs please feel free to come along we are extremely open and welcome anyone to see how exactly the dogs are handled at home, on the farm, out socialising and of course at the all important vet/trainer visits.

Like I said. Vet due tomorrow to scope. Precautions have been taken in the meantime and will continue until the behaviour with my HORSE alters. My dogs are other than a bit of arthritis in one and a very costly hormonal imbalance in one of the others, completely fine and absolutely adore being around the horses, my young son and well basically anyone else they greet on our daily walks from the house through the forest and along to our local beach.

 

[skinnydipper]

Have you never watched RSPCA and Dogs Trust etc etc, they literally handle dogs using a glove on a stick at meal times

Nope, never watched them though I did see an American programme years ago where they shoved one of those plastic hands in a starving dog's bowl and then PTS when it objected.

The dog with the problem of resource guarding was a bull terrier from the Dogs Trust, fortunately I was able to help her.

I don't profess to know everything about dog behaviour but I have managed to learn something about dogs over the years and sometimes, when I have taken on a dog with behavioural problems like the GSD in my avatar, it has been a steep learning curve. I'm always keen to learn more.

I wish you luck with your animals and hope you are able to help them with their problems.

 

[ihatework]

My twopenneth, cos I like giving my twopenneth ….

In an animal (horse/dog etc) that have raised myself I fully expect to be able touch/intervene at meal times without risk of being harmed. That doesn’t mean I often interfere, as I think animals should be able to eat in peace, but ultimately I’m the boss and what I say goes and I want my animals confident and relaxed in my company.

However if it’s an animal with previous history then I’d be more cautious if they showed aggressive behaviours and would stage manage more carefully whilst trying to understand triggers and reasons with a view, if possible to modify over time.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Thank you for being supportive.

That’s super interesting he does crib when there is a lot going on around him, turning others out, farrier/vet presence etc. that has me super curious now! It’s never bad no more than a few seconds at a time but it’s something he arrived doing. I never would have thought the two could be in some way connected. Thinking about it would the cribbing have potential to cause or exacerbate ulcers?

Yes, cribbing either exacerbates or can result from ulcers.

This is the study I read about it: https://www.frontiersin.org/article...y,skin receptors also called mechanoreceptors.

(I think that’s the one, I haven’t scan read it to make sure as I’m in the pub so apologies if it’s the wrong one)

 

[I'm Dun]

Nope, never watched them though I did see an American programme years ago where they shoved one of those plastic hands in a starving dog's bowl and then PTS when it objected.

The dog with the problem of resource guarding was a bull terrier from the Dogs Trust, fortunately I was able to help her.

I don't profess to know everything about dog behaviour but I have managed to learn something about dogs over the years and sometimes, when I have taken on a dog with behavioural problems like the GSD in my avatar, it has been a steep learning curve. I'm always keen to learn more.

I wish you luck with your animals and hope you are able to help them with their problems.

Why are you continuing this? OP came for advice about her horse. You then made a huge jump and decided her dogs were being trained in harsh ways, it wasn't true but instead of drawing a line under it you've carried on and on, you are now saying the dogs have issues? What on earth are you trying to achieve by this?

OP stop justifying yourself over your dogs.

 

[skinnydipper]

Why are you continuing this? OP came for advice about her horse. You then made a huge jump and decided her dogs were being trained in harsh ways, it wasn't true but instead of drawing a line under it you've carried on and on, you are now saying the dogs have issues? What on earth are you trying to achieve by this?

OP stop justifying yourself over your dogs.

As I think you know dogs get rehomed or pts due to behavioural problems. Why not help prevent that by offering advice about dog behaviour, especially when somebody has children in the house and the dogs have expressed aggressive behaviour around food?

ETA. Canine ladder of aggression, right at the top of the ladder after all the other warnings Growling, Snapping, Biting.

 

[PurBee]

I havent read the whole thread, but in case this hasnt been mentioned yet, im wondering whether your horse has photosensitivity?

You said the rain rot seemingly developed overnight. Usually it takes a while of them being out unrugged, getting drenched, never groomed, for the hairs to suffocate the skin and form blocks of hair that then causes infection etc.

Whereas photosensitivity seems a candidate in your case, as you said, that after clearing up the ‘rain scald’ with the washes etc, it was only when he was back out 24/7 in the SUN naked, that his behaviour deteriorated again.

Photosensitivity is activated by the sun. There’s plants/antibiotics and grasses, mainly ryegrass, that contain photosensitising compounds. As he’s an OTTB its very likely he has had the usual diet of ryegrass haylage, as its a favourite of large sports industry run yards. OR the other reason for PS showing up in horses is if there’s a liver issue due to previous poisoning (ragwort/mycotoxins) and so the liver doesnt filter the photosensitising compounds out of the blood effectively.

If he’s grazing on high % ryegrass paddock and eating high% ryegrass hay or haylage - that would be a very likely culprit for photosensitivity.
When they have PS, their skin is horribly sensitive for them, so to be touched they hate it, and will be aggressive. When PS is severe scabs will appear and they wont enjoy being dealt with. Many sections of skin can become affected and it will look like rain rot.

Common antibiotics will cause PS if given long term. I cant remember if it amoxy or doxy or tetracycline type antibiotics which are most prone, but its a common one given to humans aswell as animals.

If he had the sun on him for 3 days and he’s become weirdly sensitive to handling suddenly i would question photosensitivity. He’d want to be rugged in a UV proof rug/fly rug, and/or kept out of the sun. As s trial to see if his skin calms down.

Root cause elimination would be to stop feeding ryegrass, and switch to a mixed meadow or timothy hay. If you cant change his field or ryegrass, and he’s too dangerous to be put anywhere else, i’d give him 10kg daily of a mixed hay/timothy hay….and see how he does.

It would be wise to get bloods pulled to check liver function - any horse with a damaged liver from previous years plant poisoning is a real candidate for being photosensitive ‘sensitive’, and should have a minimal ryegrass diet, and if they need antibiotics, they are kept out of the sun or rugged while on them.

My horse went through an episode with buttercup in haylage, which caused stress to his liver function, which then caused photosensitivity because i switched in an emergency to ryegrass haylage off of the toxic haylage. Due to his compromised liver, he acutely developed PS symptoms and didnt want to be touched. He actually took himself under trees to hide from the sun, because it made his skin feel so awful. Chunks of hair eventually fell off him after the toxic event resolved. But he was very much against being touched. At the time i was lost in the myriad of symptoms and was focusing on liver healing, the bi-product of PS from the ‘safe’ ryegrass haylage caused secondary symptoms while his liver was in trouble. I didnt know it at the time but worked it out after researching PS for someone whose horse had it bad, and discovering that ryegrass has PS compounds in it, out of all the common grasses horses are exposed to.

Its worth trialling your horse with a UV proof flyrug, so he doesnt get too hot, as he prefers being out, and had become very dangerous to touch, and if his paddock grass is ryegrass, tempt him off eating that for a few days by feeding him really tasty mixed hay/timothy haylage, other feeds, but not ryegrass. See if that lessens his aggression.

Another major cause of PS in horses, especially in spring when the sun shines more, is mouldy hay causing mycotoxicosis - which again causes the liver to not work effectively due to detoxing the moulds from hay, causing PS from any ryegrass theyre eating to not be filtered out the blood circulating under their skin- then the horses get turned out for longer due to spring, and PS symptoms start - they get very fizzy, dont like being groomed, behaviour shift and handling issues.

Its another angle to bear in mind. When my 2 came back from a loan with a bit of rain rot on their backs, they werent opposed to me picking off the old scabs,or gently grooming them. And they were both pretty feral at that point! Being wild hotbloods they werent opposed to telling me to EFF OFF either! So im not sure if rain rot is what youre dealing with, although i know when active would be sore. Whereas PS makes all the skin feel painful…on fire…so touching anywhere would be an aggressive reaction. When its bad it forms scabs, and they fall off. Horses with white skin parts show PS easily, usually muzzle and face/eyes.

Mouldy hay or ryegrass, and liver damage are the main culprits for PS to show up in horses.

 

[HannahKate98]

I havent read the whole thread, but in case this hasnt been mentioned yet, im wondering whether your horse has photosensitivity?

You said the rain rot seemingly developed overnight. Usually it takes a while of them being out unrugged, getting drenched, never groomed, for the hairs to suffocate the skin and form blocks of hair that then causes infection etc.

Whereas photosensitivity seems a candidate in your case, as you said, that after clearing up the ‘rain scald’ with the washes etc, it was only when he was back out 24/7 in the SUN naked, that his behaviour deteriorated again.

Photosensitivity is activated by the sun. There’s plants/antibiotics and grasses, mainly ryegrass, that contain photosensitising compounds. As he’s an OTTB its very likely he has had the usual diet of ryegrass haylage, as its a favourite of large sports industry run yards. OR the other reason for PS showing up in horses is if there’s a liver issue due to previous poisoning (ragwort/mycotoxins) and so the liver doesnt filter the photosensitising compounds out of the blood effectively.

If he’s grazing on high % ryegrass paddock and eating high% ryegrass hay or haylage - that would be a very likely culprit for photosensitivity.
When they have PS, their skin is horribly sensitive for them, so to be touched they hate it, and will be aggressive. When PS is severe scabs will appear and they wont enjoy being dealt with. Many sections of skin can become affected and it will look like rain rot.

Common antibiotics will cause PS if given long term. I cant remember if it amoxy or doxy or tetracycline type antibiotics which are most prone, but its a common one given to humans aswell as animals.

If he had the sun on him for 3 days and he’s become weirdly sensitive to handling suddenly i would question photosensitivity. He’d want to be rugged in a UV proof rug/fly rug, and/or kept out of the sun. As s trial to see if his skin calms down.

Root cause elimination would be to stop feeding ryegrass, and switch to a mixed meadow or timothy hay. If you cant change his field or ryegrass, and he’s too dangerous to be put anywhere else, i’d give him 10kg daily of a mixed hay/timothy hay….and see how he does.

It would be wise to get bloods pulled to check liver function - any horse with a damaged liver from previous years plant poisoning is a real candidate for being photosensitive ‘sensitive’, and should have a minimal ryegrass diet, and if they need antibiotics, they are kept out of the sun or rugged while on them.

My horse went through an episode with buttercup in haylage, which caused stress to his liver function, which then caused photosensitivity because i switched in an emergency to ryegrass haylage off of the toxic haylage. Due to his compromised liver, he acutely developed PS symptoms and didnt want to be touched. He actually took himself under trees to hide from the sun, because it made his skin feel so awful. Chunks of hair eventually fell off him after the toxic event resolved. But he was very much against being touched. At the time i was lost in the myriad of symptoms and was focusing on liver healing, the bi-product of PS from the ‘safe’ ryegrass haylage caused secondary symptoms while his liver was in trouble. I didnt know it at the time but worked it out after researching PS for someone whose horse had it bad, and discovering that ryegrass has PS compounds in it, out of all the common grasses horses are exposed to.

Its worth trialling your horse with a UV proof flyrug, so he doesnt get too hot, as he prefers being out, and had become very dangerous to touch, and if his paddock grass is ryegrass, tempt him off eating that for a few days by feeding him really tasty mixed hay/timothy haylage, other feeds, but not ryegrass. See if that lessens his aggression.

Another major cause of PS in horses, especially in spring when the sun shines more, is mouldy hay causing mycotoxicosis - which again causes the liver to not work effectively due to detoxing the moulds from hay, causing PS from any ryegrass theyre eating to not be filtered out the blood circulating under their skin- then the horses get turned out for longer due to spring, and PS symptoms start - they get very fizzy, dont like being groomed, behaviour shift and handling issues.

Its another angle to bear in mind. When my 2 came back from a loan with a bit of rain rot on their backs, they werent opposed to me picking off the old scabs,or gently grooming them. And they were both pretty feral at that point! Being wild hotbloods they werent opposed to telling me to EFF OFF either! So im not sure if rain rot is what youre dealing with, although i know when active would be sore. Whereas PS makes all the skin feel painful…on fire…so touching anywhere would be an aggressive reaction. When its bad it forms scabs, and they fall off. Horses with white skin parts show PS easily, usually muzzle and face/eyes.

Mouldy hay or ryegrass, and liver damage are the main culprits for PS to show up in horses.

Thank you so much for this!! This was so in depth and it’s given us something else to consider. Ever so grateful

 

[paisley]

Possible point to consider but if you consider the potential triggers - previous painful rainscald, with the necessary grooming/treatment so effectively a hand/arm reaching towards him. You mention putting a hand out to take off some hair but there’s room to consider that action associated with very uncomfortable experiences. I totally understand it’s a huge reaction but worth thinking about in terms of approaching him and handling.

 

[Cragrat]

HannahKate98 - I've only just read this thread, and just wanted to say that a pain memory reaction is a possibility.

I have a bright bay OTTB, and he is the sweetest, gentlest horse I have ever owned, by a country mile. He adores people, fuss, attention, cuddles.

But when he was injured, he nearly killed the vet and I. He fought through the IV sedation, and wouldn't allow more to be given. He didn't hold back AT ALL. He kicked fast, and with full force. He slammed us in to walls, reared full height and tried to come down on top of us. We had had him a good few years by this point, and it was a total shock. He is barely 16hh, but became 20hh, towering over us.

Luckily I had done a little basic clicker training with him, and a day later, when he had calmed down, I was able to slowly attend to his wound, It took a long time, and lots of short sessions, but he did eventually let me deal with all but the most sensitive area. It was a serious wound, but only torn skin. I have seen far deeper and/or more extensive wounds on other horses, which have caused barely a flinch. This lad is either over sensitive, a drama queen, or has some remembered pain fear. For various reasons we do suspect that he sustained some kind of major injury as a young racehorse.

You said yours cribs at times - mine windsucks at times. Coincidence?

Either way, I hope you can find a solution. Sadly, he isn't safe or happy as he is

 

[AengusOg]

6 y/o OTTB Gelding, I had him fresh off the track June 2023, he was let down before having a month of professional schooling while I was away in the States late October. On returning home his work was kept up with and he showed a preference for being turned out 24/7, access to shelter at all times. Unfortunately seemingly overnight early December he developed a severe case of rain rot, vet called the second I saw it and a treatment plan of; Bute, Hibi scrub washes, drying, grooming and antibiotics got it sorted however this is where the problem started. Understandably the washes were uncomfortable as was the grooming to help remove the old scabs etc. On occasion his rear legs would come up and it was a clear ‘OUCH THAT HURT’ reaction, so I’d proceed to stay where I was but not touch the area causing the pain anymore that day, pat him elsewhere and continue grooming unaffected areas - my thinking was if I move away and stop every time a leg is raised he’ll learn that’s a good way to get what he wants. But I made sure never to force him through painful sessions.



He’s since been groomed and ridden no real issues, a distaste for currying over his rump where the worst of the rain rot was but absolutely zero issues with his skin now.



He’s had 2 months of in at night out during the day with a companion and he’s been excellent, not pushy to handle, happy having rugs changed etc. he’s now turned out 24/7 while it’s dry, anyway this all seemed perfect, until….



3 days ago he was stood unrugged enjoying the sun, I smoothed him and noticed a wad of loose hair bunched at his flank (completely loose) I thought I’d do him a favour and take it off him, as I said it wasn’t attached not even by a single hair - HE DIDN’T JUST RAISE A LEG OR TWITCH HE FULLY AIMED AND LASHED OUT AT ME WITH TWO SWIFT SIDE SWIPES. He missed but the intention was clear. I hadn’t shocked him, he was aware of my presence. Not normal behaviour for him.



Yesterday. Yesterday was UNREAL. Same old routine, fed in the morning out in the paddock, companion keeps her distance, Quick Look over for cuts etc then I leave until the evening checks. Evenings are when he gets more fuss as time allows and he generally gets a good scratch/pat and small groom. Not yesterday. He approached with his usual eager walk, approached me and didn’t flinch as I smoothed his forehead, ran my hand along his neck and over his back, SUDDENLY THE BACK LEG CAME UP AND OUT TOWARD ME. Okay, I’ll go back to his head and he was happy with that with that THE BEAST WAS UNLEASHED - BACK LEG COMING FORWARD TOWARD ME, EARS FLAT TO HIS NECK, HE BIT AND WOULD NOT LET GO OF MY BACKSIDE (THANK GOD I TURNED AS HE WAS GOING FOR MY BONEY SHOULDER), WHILE HOLDING ONTO MY BACKSIDE AND BREAKING THE SKIN HE WAS STRIKING OUT REPEATEDLY WITH HIS FORELEGS. He backed off almost as quickly as he began. My husband watched it all play out and he said there were no warning signs other than the first rear leg. He was relaxed directly before, happy and wanting a fuss. I’ve been around horses all my life if ears go back I know to move, as I did with the rear leg warning.



What an earth do I do to work with this. His feed is minimal and all gut friendly for ulcer prone horses due to him being an ex racer that’s what all my OTTBs are on unless they require more. He’s a good doer so he’s simply having a handful and some linseed for coat/skin condition. His feed hasn’t changed. He’s on grass 24/7, if in he has 2x 12kg haynets at differing heights so he can mooch around for food and they never run out. He’s happy on the lunge, great under saddle, farrier 2 weeks ago, dental 5 weeks ago, zero signs of lameness or other health concerns even his skin what I managed to feel in those few seconds felt fine, just suddenly freaking out being touched.



HOW, HOW ON EARTH DO I WORK WITH THIS?! I have an almost 3 year old son who’s allowed nowhere near this horse now and likely won’t be again because he’ll never be able to be trusted around my child after yesterday’s outburst. Thankfully it’s my own yard so my family have been made aware not to enter his paddock/stall.



Someone please offer some advice, if this is residual tension/fear from the rain rot discomfort how do I go about letting him know the pain has gone, we aren’t there to cause pain, I’m never there to hurt/stress/upset him. Desperately need advice with this.

Unfortunately it's not possible to verbally explain to a horse that something they fear, through past experience, is not going to happen again, so it's a case of gradually teaching through a new regime of handling and training that there is no need to be afraid now.
As trust in the handler is built the horse is less inclined to be fearful, so his behaviour improves.

It's probable that the prior treatment for rainscald was extremely uncomfortable for him, so your horse looked for a way to protect himself.
If you missed the early signals, the horse had no choice but to up the anti, so he's now waving his leg around and biting to get rid of you.

So you're now at a stage where you'll have to use specific handling techniques to persuade your horse that he must allow your attentions without challenge, or you will demonstrate assertively that attacking you is absolutely not acceptable under any circumstances.

Firstly, I'd not tie the horse for any proceedings. I'd work him in-hand only. If you are grooming him you must have a competent person at his head, who can work him effectively to keep you safe and keep his weight correct on his limbs in order to keep them on the floor.

Any attempts by the horse to intimidate or hurt you must be dealt with by the handler immediately by, after making sure you are clear, moving the horse's feet by turning his head and disengaging his hindquarters on a tight circle.

The horse should be turned half a dozen times or so before being given the opportunity to halt, whereupon he should then be set up by the handler for you to resume what you were doing.

No verbal negativity or reprimand is necessary. Just assertive, calm action.

In terms of grooming the area over his croup, where the painful memories are strongest, I'd settle him by grooming the adjacent areas of his body where he is accepting of you to the point where he is relaxed and then I'd give one flick of the brush onto the edge of the troublesome area before immediately going back to the non-troublesome place to settle and start to build trust.
Your horse will have to be taught that there is no longer pain associated with light grooming over the areas which worry him, and gradually he will come to accept more incursion into that area.

As you're grooming, you should be moving the horse around, in partnership with the person at his head, so that he steps away from light hand pressure on his shoulder, or his neck, or anywhere where it is safe to touch him initially, and also back him up a step or two, then bring him forward a few steps, always continuing with the respectful, trust-building grooming as you go.

This moving of his feet will allow you to quietly and gradually gain control of your horse's mind, build trust, and his behaviour will improve.
Keep sessions short, giving your horse time to process during short breaks.

Try to progress to grooming him in-hand without the handler at his head, so that you learn to work him confidently yourself.

In a few days you'll be able to groom him safely, without resistance, and he'll have learned to accept it.

Obviously you'll have to exercise some degree of self-restraint if you feel yourself getting anxious or frustrated during the process.
Keep your breathing regular and this will keep your heart rate down which, in turn, will inhibit your adrenaline response.
Walk away if you can't control yourself.

Stay safe.

 

[Needtoretire]

I used clicker training to deal with a very aggressive mare who had become difficult due to ulcers. Sorted the ulcers but the aggression remained when rugging, grooming and tacking up. It was due to expected pain.

 

[Palindrome]

How is he doing OP?
There is the "glove on a stick" technique to try and desensitize a horse who is fearful of being touched.
But I think you are right to get a vet as it escalated quickly to a very aggressive behaviour which seems out of character.

 

[scats]

How is he doing OP?
There is the "glove on a stick" technique to try and desensitize a horse who is fearful of being touched.
But I think you are right to get a vet as it escalated quickly to a very aggressive behaviour which seems out of character.

I have just successfully used this technique with a semi-feral pony who would spin and kick if you went near her or would sniff you and than go ears back and attack you.
In less than 2 weeks she went from a seemingly aggressive pony to very sweet and friendly, which shows she was genuinely just terrified for her life and acting in defence.

Obviously completely different to your situation OP, but the glove on a stick is a great way of staying safe in these situations. I hope your horse is doing ok.

 

[Irish-Only]

As I think you know dogs get rehomed or pts due to behavioural problems. Why not help prevent that by offering advice about dog behaviour, especially when somebody has children in the house and the dogs have expressed aggressive behaviour around food?

ETA. Canine ladder of aggression, right at the top of the ladder after all the other warnings Growling, Snapping, Biting.

Advice can be useful when someone ask’s for it. You are literally like a dog with a bone, wow.
The post is about a behavioural problem with a horse and the poor op is getting some undeserved holier than thou stick.
This is as bad as some of the keyboard warriors you see on fb.
Really wish you luck op in getting to the bottom of the behaviour.

 

[skinnydipper]

Advice can be useful when someone ask’s for it. You are literally like a dog with a bone, wow.
The post is about a behavioural problem with a horse and the poor op is getting some undeserved holier than thou stick.
This is as bad as some of the keyboard warriors you see on fb.
Really wish you luck op in getting to the bottom of the behaviour.

and you are doing what?

Dragging something up that was dropped over a week ago.

Why would you want to do that? Rhetorical question.