Horse body language

[little_critter]

Hoping some body language experts can help.
What does it mean when a mare rests her head on your shoulder. Mine usually does this when I'm pulling her mane, I take is as her saying 'please don't do that'
This evening she did it in the field while we were having a soppy cuddle and a scratch.
I'd be interested to know what she is saying.

 

[Rosiejazzandpia]

Im also intrested. Both my mares do this frequently, also when having a cuddle and a fuss in the field

 

[texel]

Hi - here is an extract from Julie Goodnight explaining the behaviour you describe;

" As for the head resting behavior, there are two critical facts of horse behavior you must know and understand. First, space. The horse should NEVER be allowed to come into your space uninvited by you. If he does, he controls your space and is therefore dominant over you.

(I would add that there is a possiblilty of the horse making a sudden movemnt in response to a noise - remember they are flight animals).

Secondly, horses display dominance over their ‘playmates’ by reaching over the subordinate’s withers with their head and neck. That’s why when you are stroking your horse in praise, you should always take that opportunity to reach over his withers as a ploy of dominance (not with your head- that would be stupidly dangerous, but with your arm).

I would never allow my horse to put his head on me. Besides, it is dangerous to have your head that close to a horse’s head. Biting is the most dominant behavior of horses and biting is the end result in a series of progressive behaviors. The first in the series is lipping behavior, then comes nipping then comes biting.

All of these are progressive tests of dominance and so far you are failing this test. I would not allow any horse to ever put his lips on or near me. If I want to show some affection to my horse, which I do, once he has become totally and completely subordinate to me, I will rub him vigorously in his sweet spot (look for puckered lips) and/or rub down his face. While I will not let the horse reciprocate this affection, these moments can be very close and intimate with the horse. However, these grooming sessions are initiated entirely by me and ended by me (the dominant member in our herd of two)."

As with all interactions with horses you must initiate the action whatever it happens to be, not the horse. You know your horse and his temperament.

Being human we seek affection from our horses and we like to think they can show affection however during the many years I have studied and observed horses I have learnt to accept that their idea of 'affection' (for want of a better word) is no where near ours i.e. they do not cuddle etc. Their world is all about dominance and submission.

 

[little_critter]

Thanks Texel. She's a pretty independent mare. tonight was the first time in 2 years she has come over for a cuddle. Usually I can't prise her away from eating grass.
I suspected the resting on my shoulder while mane pulling was a dominance thing but she confused me tonight because it felt like she was accepting me and giving me her time instead of eating.

 

[mandwhy]

Not having a go at you here Texel but I find what I have seen of Julie Goodnight to be too simplistic and a bit obsessed about being dominant over the horse. In fact I am surprised she mentions petting them at all! I completely understand hierarchy plays a big part, but I wouldn't agree that a horse is doing this particular thing to be dominant every time.

My mare does this sometimes resting her head on my folded arms or shoulder, just as she sometimes does it on the wooden post she is tied to. Is she trying to dominate the post? Sometimes she is a bit fed up e.g. if I am oiling or plaiting her mane, other times I think she is just tired and resting her head, especially on a hot day when the flies have been bugging her. She does it to my boyfriend a lot if he stands with her while I am tacking her up, sighing a lot!

 

[Caol Ila]

The obsession with "dominance" is very human. Julie Goodnight's theories are not the only paradigm out there. Other equine ethologists have observed dominance behaviour with regards to control over resources, mainly amongst domestic herds, but suggest that there are more communitarian relationships amongst herds where resources are less finite (by finite, I mean getting through a gate, arguing over piles of hay, living in small, fenced off spaces, etc.). They also surmise that the hierarchy is fluid and situational and, at any rate, thinking solely in terms of dominance isn't that helpful for training.

In any case, I have let my mare rest her head on my shoulder for 14 years and no ill has come of it.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Hi - here is an extract from Julie Goodnight explaining the behaviour you describe;

" As for the head resting behavior, there are two critical facts of horse behavior you must know and understand. First, space. The horse should NEVER be allowed to come into your space uninvited by you. If he does, he controls your space and is therefore dominant over you.

(I would add that there is a possiblilty of the horse making a sudden movemnt in response to a noise - remember they are flight animals).

Secondly, horses display dominance over their ‘playmates’ by reaching over the subordinate’s withers with their head and neck. That’s why when you are stroking your horse in praise, you should always take that opportunity to reach over his withers as a ploy of dominance (not with your head- that would be stupidly dangerous, but with your arm).

I would never allow my horse to put his head on me. Besides, it is dangerous to have your head that close to a horse’s head. Biting is the most dominant behavior of horses and biting is the end result in a series of progressive behaviors. The first in the series is lipping behavior, then comes nipping then comes biting.

All of these are progressive tests of dominance and so far you are failing this test. I would not allow any horse to ever put his lips on or near me. If I want to show some affection to my horse, which I do, once he has become totally and completely subordinate to me, I will rub him vigorously in his sweet spot (look for puckered lips) and/or rub down his face. While I will not let the horse reciprocate this affection, these moments can be very close and intimate with the horse. However, these grooming sessions are initiated entirely by me and ended by me (the dominant member in our herd of two)."

As with all interactions with horses you must initiate the action whatever it happens to be, not the horse. You know your horse and his temperament.

Being human we seek affection from our horses and we like to think they can show affection however during the many years I have studied and observed horses I have learnt to accept that their idea of 'affection' (for want of a better word) is no where near ours i.e. they do not cuddle etc. Their world is all about dominance and submission.

Have to say,
"what a nutter"

Why any of these people have anything to do with horses in the first place is a mystery as they come across as being pathologically terrified of them.

Perhaps we should coin a new word/s
"horsephobic"
"horseaphobia"

omg, it's touching me.

 

[little_critter]

The other replies make more sense to me. I totally trust my mare not to take my ear off when she rests her head on my shoulder and it had a feeling of closeness rather than dominance last night.
I will cherish the moment, she's not a cuddly girl and usually focuses on grazing but we had a lovely 20 minutes scratching and fussing and her attention was on me, not the grass. I felt accepted.

 

[HBM1]

Sorry I don't hold with her view at all. Maybe in new relationships possibly, but I have had all my horses a very long time and two of them I have bred. There is no way mine do this as a dominance thing. I hug their chests and they close their heads down on me. It is never hard, always gentle. As for horses "not cuddling" maybe they dont know that term, but theycertainly know affection. My horses seek each other out and nuzzle each other with nothing but gentle affection on their faces.

 

[Rouletterose]

my horses often nuzzle into me very gently and politely and it's a sign of affection as far as I am concerned, I've had horses for 53 years and had all sorts and competed lots, my horses 'look' for me all the time but they certainly dont dominate me in any way shape or form.

OP take it that your horse LOVES YOU.

 

[hnmisty]

Wow. The Goodnight explanation seems a bit OTT to me

I really fail to see how a horse resting its head on your shoulder is any of the cr*p ranted off there.

The horse must never enter uninvited into your space? I love it when mine come up to me in the field, either to say hello or because they're curious about what I'm doing. I couldn't think of much worse than shoving them away because "I didn't invite them closer".

I've got to say, from that quote, I feel sorry for any horse whose owner/rider follows that woman's teachings!

 

[Fluffy bunny]

My horse does this when she is in a soppy mood and will actually doze off resting gently on my shoulder. I love it )

 

[oldie48]

Perhaps some folks find it's more acceptable to talk about clear boundaries than dominent/submissive behaviour but i think it's always important to try to ensure you are in a safe position when handling horses even when they are your "best friend" No, I wouldn't allow horse to rest on my shoulder, I'm not there to prop him up and he's teeth are too close to my face. Also, if something suddenly startled him, he could easily bash me in the face. Of course we all think nothing like this will happen but unfortunately, they do. If I want a cuddle which is recipricated, I stick to humans.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

horses display dominance over their ‘playmates’ by reaching over the subordinate’s withers with their head and neck.

My young gelding plays with the mares (when he can get them to join in ) and he is often seen resting his head on the chestnut mare's back. He is definitely bottom of the pack and she is at the top. The interesting thing is that he is more likely to do this if the grey is being grumpy towards him.

 

[Hippona]

Wow. Mentalist
I couldn't get near my horse when I got him. So for him to choose to come to me and sniffle my face and hair, and point his arse end at me for a scratch .....I take as a sign he's happy to be with me, not dominant over me...'

The other one wraps his head and neck around you when being groomed, he tucks his face in my armpit.....that doesn't seem like dominance to me

 

[texel]

Yes I did wonder how you folks would react to the Julie Goodnight quote

As I did say at the end of my reply:

As with all interactions with horses you must initiate the action whatever it happens to be, not the horse. You know your horse and his temperament.

Being human we seek affection from our horses and we like to think they can show affection however during the many years I have studied and observed horses I have learnt to accept that their idea of 'affection' (for want of a better word) is no where near ours i.e. they do not cuddle etc. Their world is all about dominance and submission and I add here subtlety.

Horses are very subtle in their interactions with each other and us, dominant behaviour does not necessarily mean gnashing of teeth and barging for example. It can be as subtle as making you move your feet.

It is also knowing that curiosity such as sniffing etc is not showing dominance.

My chap does rest his head on my shoulder and he does this after I walk up to him and start to massage his neck. As I said as long as you initiate the action. I am not talking about wildly waving your arms, sticks or whatever else.

However how you interpret your horse's actions is up to you at the end of the day and as I said you all know your horse and his/her temperament.

How lovely the sun is out and I can see blue sky ............. off to the field later for a cuddle !

 

[Hippona]

Why can't the horse initiate?

It's not a relationship surely if one party holds all the power all the time....

 

[GeorgeyGal]

I agree with what the others have said about knowing and trusting your horse, a bit different than letting an unknown horse wander over and plonk it's head on you. If you already have a trusting relationship I see no issue with this, anyway shouldn't we put trust in our horses or why should they trust us? We put our lives in their hoofs every day! I understand laying down the boundaries if they are not already established but I would take this for what it is, I'm sure most owners can sense what is acceptable and when it's not. I think we can get too bogged down with 'acting like a horse', of course we can use their 'language' as an advantage but they are not stupid they know we are not a horse.

 

[little_critter]

To put her actions in context. It didn't feel dominating. I invited her over and started the stroking/scratching. The rest of her body language was passive and relaxed.
I did make a point of resting my hand on her withers this morning but it didn't initiate any reaction from her.
Ref teeth close to faces, I guess letting her sniff my minty toothpaste breath is a big no-no then!
(Just to add while I trust her near my head I am always alert and conscious of her actions and attitude, I'm ready to push her
away if need be)
Also ref gently dominant behaviour, if she wants to move round the stable and I'm in her way, tough! She has to walk round me not through me.
I feel we have a give and take relationship. I have the final say but I don't seek to always reinforce my dominance and keep her under the thumb. There is give and take on both sides but there are clear rules and boundaries that she is not allowed to cross.
Maybe look at the 50/50 rule that Michael Peace uses.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Their world is all about dominance and submission and I add here subtlety.

That's far too simplistic.

Horses also have friends. Anyone who watches a herd of horses regularly will see that some horses like to spend their time with certain members of the herd and not others. This is independent to the 'pecking order' that comes into effect when waiting for their turn to drink at the water trough (for example).

 

[teabiscuit]

Oh dear, I feel sorry for Ms Goodnight's horses.

 

[texel]

indeed Faracat the 'pecking order' is a product of dominance and submission.

Horses have a simplistic way of life - on the other hand we humans are far too complicated !

Have a lovely day everyone - and tomorrow is a bank holiday yipeeee

 

[Rosiejazzandpia]

Agree with Faracat but cant quote. On the livery yard my shared horse is at all 18 horses are turned out together on over 30 acres. Its intresting to sit and watch them when you have time because there are friendship groups within the herd. There are 4 horses who are always together, and within that 2 of the ponies are best mates. Another group of 3 are always together and we have 2 cobs who like to cause trouble together. Horses are fiends with each other in ways other than the herd leader and the submissive horses

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I haven't googled Julie Goodnight, but it is possible that she has a background that involves dogs, and then transferred dog language into horse language? In dog language, it can definitely be a dominance signal if a dog puts their head on another dog's back, but on the other hand, then she doesn't know that much about dog language either, because just as there is nuances in human language, there is also nuances in dog language, one signal can sometimes mean different things, depending on what other signals it is combined with/in what situation it is used. E.g. if two dogs are sleeping in the same bed, and one of the dogs ends up with their head over the other dog's back, it doesn't have to have anything to do with dominance, it can be just about sleeping comfortably with something to rest their head at.

Besides, most dogs can learn that human signals doesn't have to mean the same as their equivalent in dog language, so why would horses only be able to read our body language in horse terms? I believe that horses can recognise that we're not horses, and that horse language can have nuances, just like human or dog language. My biggest problem with what Julie Goodnight have written is the lack of nuance, I believe that a horse can walk up to you in a dominant way, invading your personal space in a dominant way, but I'm sure that they can also walk up to you or invade your personal space without it having to do with them trying to dominant you.
For example, I've heard Tobbe Larsson ( http://www.tobbelarsson.com/omtobbe.php ) talk about that when his horses thinks something can be dangerous or scary, they almost want to come up in to his lap, because to them, he is safety, he will take care of them.

 

[WandaMare]

I must be very submissive then because my horse did it the day I went to try her The dealer let me ride her in the indoor school then take her for a hack. When I got back he met me and we chatted. Mare stood behind me then stepped forward and rested her head on my shoulder.......that was it for me, sold! She's never tried to dominate me or hurt me in any way, she's a gentle giant and if she wants to come to me and rest her head on me she'll always be very welcome !

 

[little_critter]

Just thought of something I was told ref human body language: you need to look at the whole picture, not just individual gestures.
For example crossed arms and legs is meant to be an example of blocking and being defensive. However if the whole picture is of a relaxed friendly person it may just be that they find crossed arms and legs more comfortable.
Just a thought...

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

Oh dear, I feel sorry for Ms Goodnight's horses.

Not half as sorry as I feel for the people and their horses who follow this guff.

The tone in that extract is bordering on the hysterical.
This bit in particular,

"I would never allow my horse to put his head on me. Besides, it is dangerous to have your head that close to a horse’s head. Biting is the most dominant behavior of horses and biting is the end result in a series of progressive behaviors. The first in the series is lipping behavior, then comes nipping then comes biting."

So when you're hanging upside down over a back foot poking around with a hoof pick, that's safer?

Ooops, I forgot, horses who want to bite your ear off to show their dominance (as they all do of course, don't trust the bu**ers) can't work out that kicking your head in would be far more effective.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

indeed Faracat the 'pecking order' is a product of dominance and submission.

Of course it is. My point was that it isn't the be all and end all.

 

[WelshD]

My pony likes to get his face bear mine which involves him resting his head on my chest or shoulder, I don't mind that, it's obviously something he has always done and he is so small it's darn handy when you need to do up combo rugs! I have to say though that if he started to nip or mouth me I think I would call that too risky for comfort

The wording in that article does indeed read like the standard stuff dog behaviourists say so I wonder if the writer has simply decided that's how all animals should be treated?

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The wording in that article does indeed read like the standard stuff dog behaviourists say so I wonder if the writer has simply decided that's how all animals should be treated?

Glad I'm not the only one thinking it sounded like something from the dog world. If she has basically just exchanged dogs to horses, she wouldn't be the first one to do something like that. As I recall, there was a study from the 1920's that was based on a flock of hens and their pecking order, that then somehow became the norm, and many people was convinced that that was how all flocks/herds/packs of animals worked, e.g. some dog books from 1980's, and perhaps even later, can include beliefs about how a pack of dogs or wolves function together, basically based on that study about how a flock of hens functioned. Or maybe that is what she has read about, and her beliefs about horse language is based on hens?