horse communicators and reason out the window

Littlelegs said:
I'm too thick for the terry pratchett jokes, I can't even count, one...two...many...
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Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not even contemplate :p


*from this point onwards this evening I intend to communicate solely in Pratchett quotations*
 
My daughter is a TP fan and I read a couple of his books because she insisted. :rolleyes:

To her disappointment, although I found them quite amusing I wasn't keen enough to want to read any more. Not really my cup of tea.
 
FionaM12 said:
My daughter is a TP fan and I read a couple of his books because she insisted. :rolleyes:

To her disappointment, although I found them quite amusing I wasn't keen enough to want to read any more. Not really my cup of tea.
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Stories of imagination tend to upset those without one :cool:


(I don't really mean that but it seems the most appropriate quotation I can find :D )
 
Booboos said:
Wow god must really rate you to spend his time finding your lost items. Any chance you could ask for a cure for AIDS, or an end to world hunger, or peace on earth next time though?
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Ive spent the last 5 minutes reading this thread and you must be the most intolerant, rude person on it.
You rubbish anyone whos beliefs are different to yours, belittle and berate them you like to base your beliefs on science, others are more spiritual, show a little respect to others
 
Marydoll said:
Ive spent the last 5 minutes reading this thread and you must be the most intolerant, rude person on it.
You rubbish anyone whos beliefs are different to yours, belittle and berate them you like to base your beliefs on science, others are more spiritual, show a little respect to others
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If you chose to join a tread that specifically challenges a set of beliefs why do you find it rude when these beliefs are challenged by reason? Instead of being shocked at my 'rudeness' why not provide counter arguments that would make me change my mind?

As for the religion comments:
1. I didn't bring up religion. One poster asked for people's beliefs in the hopes of showing an inconsistency - I, amongst others, was happy to answer instead of wailing about how upset I was at the question. Again another poster brought up the issue of miracles and the power of prayer, not me. If you think a topic is beyond the bounds of reasonable discussion you should not bring it up in such a discussion.

2. I stand by my comment to horserider that you quoted. In a world presided over by a benevolent, omnipotent god it is both extremely arrogant to think that this being responds to your pleas and extremely immoral to use this opportunity to ask for tiny personal favours.

3. I am not intolerant as I have no problem with others having, expressing and living their lives in accordance with their views. I am also not intolerant as I welcome the opportunity to discuss these views.

4. I fail to see what is disrespectful in taking the time to think through and articulate arguments in a discussion.
 
My opinion is that we spend too much time trying to be accepting of opinions that really should be called out as baloney.
If someone said 'I think horses should be fed on pies' it would be called out as rubbish so why should there be given leeway to something just because it is said to be 'spiritual'. Prove what you say and I'll accept it otherwise it's free to challenge.
 
Gloi said:
My opinion is that we spend too much time trying to be accepting of opinions that really should be called out as baloney.
If someone said 'I think horses should be fed on pies' it would be called out as rubbish so why should there be given leeway to something just because it is said to be 'spiritual'. Prove what you say and I'll accept it otherwise it's free to challenge.
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I have some sympathy with the idea that spiritual beliefs should in principle be accorded some importance qua spiritual beliefs because they usually capture a person's values, how they ought to live their lives, what kind of person they ought to be, etc. However, this is not a free pass; I don't think you can get away with anything you like as long as you call it your spiritual/religious belief, nor do I think that if you put up the belief for rational scrutiny you can then be offended when it fails.
 
Booboos said:
If you chose to join a tread that specifically challenges a set of beliefs why do you find it rude when these beliefs are challenged by reason? Instead of being shocked at my 'rudeness' why not provide counter arguments that would make me change my mind?

As for the religion comments:
1. I didn't bring up religion. One poster asked for people's beliefs in the hopes of showing an inconsistency - I, amongst others, was happy to answer instead of wailing about how upset I was at the question. Again another poster brought up the issue of miracles and the power of prayer, not me. If you think a topic is beyond the bounds of reasonable discussion you should not bring it up in such a discussion.

2. I stand by my comment to horserider that you quoted. In a world presided over by a benevolent, omnipotent god it is both extremely arrogant to think that this being responds to your pleas and extremely immoral to use this opportunity to ask for tiny personal favours.

3. I am not intolerant as I have no problem with others having, expressing and living their lives in accordance with their views. I am also not intolerant as I welcome the opportunity to discuss these views.

4. I fail to see what is disrespectful in taking the time to think through and articulate arguments in a discussion.
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in your second paragraph yet again you belittle someones beliefs, its not enough for you to say you dont believe ( for the record neither do I ) but i have more respect for others than to rubbish their beliefs.
Again, if someone has an opinion that differs from yours, whether they are capable of articulating it to your standards, doesnt make it any less valid.
You come accross as extremely arrogent, rude and intolerant of others beliefs if they differ from yours quoting science at every oppertunity, as you are entitled to, but please do so without rubbishing what others believe based in spiritual not scientific beliefs.
 
Gloi said:
My opinion is that we spend too much time trying to be accepting of opinions that really should be called out as baloney.
If someone said 'I think horses should be fed on pies' it would be called out as rubbish so why should there be given leeway to something just because it is said to be 'spiritual'. Prove what you say and I'll accept it otherwise it's free to challenge.
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The sheer arrogence of this is astounding .....
 
Marydoll said:
in your second paragraph yet again you belittle someones beliefs, its not enough for you to say you dont believe ( for the record neither do I ) but i have more respect for others than to rubbish their beliefs.
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Why is religion the only the thing we're not allowed to take the piss out of when its the thing that makes the least sense to any rational person? :confused:

Booboos has been perfectly polite, you just don't like where she's coming from.
 
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100% with marydoll. Perhaps I'm just confident enough in my own decision to be an atheist that I don't need to re-affirm it by being rude about somebody else's choices.
 
I can, mr nick. Or at least one of the premises on which they're based. Technically horse rider said that she prays to the patron saint of lost things and he helps her find them - not god. Since a patron saint is unlikely (in ecclesiastical terms) to be responsible for other interventions, any success with finding things is not necessarily relevant to a god sitting back and allowing the innocent to die.
 
mm but i would have thought - and i may well be wrong here - that patronly saint duties would be an add on, a sort of enhanced service to the general business of watching over and protecting and doing god's work?
 
Mr Nick said:
mm but i would have thought - and i may well be wrong here - that patronly saint duties would be an add on, a sort of enhanced service to the general business of watching over and protecting and doing god's work?
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You might choose to assume that, but I'm sure horserider explains it differently.

Ultimately with religion, it's not a scientific debate because it's not something we can test or investigate empirically - it's just not of this world. And you can aways explain vague signals in different ways and with different significance. It's not like AC or other supernatural phenomena, which generally have some element which is testable in this world. Religion would still exist and people still believe even if science explained every miracle on earth - because the belief in a creator, greater power, overseer is quite intuitive to explain why we're here.
 
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I have noticed one thing. If you don't believe in Spritualistic phenomenon & prefer scientific reasoning it would appear, according to this thread, that you are arrogant & rude. I've been called it twice & now Booboos.

Can I say I have much respect for Ellemoo. She hasn't once got angry or insulted at any of my clumsy attempts to explain her experience. In fact not being accused of rudeness/arrogance/calling her a liar is quite refreshing. It is much easier to debate & respect someone's opinion when it isn't slung at you with insults ;)
 
Marydoll said:
in your second paragraph yet again you belittle someones beliefs, its not enough for you to say you dont believe ( for the record neither do I ) but i have more respect for others than to rubbish their beliefs.
Again, if someone has an opinion that differs from yours, whether they are capable of articulating it to your standards, doesnt make it any less valid.
You come accross as extremely arrogent, rude and intolerant of others beliefs if they differ from yours quoting science at every oppertunity, as you are entitled to, but please do so without rubbishing what others believe based in spiritual not scientific beliefs.
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My second paragraph does not rubbish the religious belief, quite the contrary it assumes they are right. Assuming there is a benevolent, omniscient god who sits in judgement of our behaviour, asking him to intervene for petty, self-centred concerns is both arrogant and immoral. So by the religious person's own standards what they are doing is wrong.

The rest of it, honestly, I am having trouble responding to but here's my best try:

I have no problems with people whose opinions differ from mine, that is my profession, I love a good debate. However, the debate has to be good with some decent arguments on both sides and without anyone throwing their toys out of their pram because it looks like they may be wrong.

My objection is one of vacuity not articulation, i.e. there are no good arguments behind the beliefs, rather than there are good arguments that the believer cannot articulate adequately. The believer's argument is very clear "I had a personal exepience which was extremely convincing and I refuse to accept that I may have been tricked", it's just not a very convincing argument for others.

As above I dind't rubbish the spiritual basis of the belief, I called attention to the hypocricy of its internal inconsistency; by its own standards that is a pretty poor belief to have.
 
Personally I don't see why a mere 'belief' should be off limits? A difference of belief is not arrogance. Why can't someone make an opposing comment?

If I said I 'believed' Jeremy Clarkson is very witty and a snappy dresser(I don't BTW) and someone else said oh no! I 'believe' he's a complete arse with infantile schoolboy humour and dresses like a 1970's geography teacher.

If you tried to tell the basic Christian story to the four billion non-Christians, do you think they'd accept it without comment? You'd have an easier time convincing them of the existence of Father Christmas or elves.
There's several thousand, likely more, who believe strapping yourself with explosives is a valid expression devoutness. Would anyone say it's arrogant to comment on these beliefs?

The same goes for so called Psychics, AC's, raiki practitioners, Homeopathy etc.

I agree with BooBoos 100% but she's a far better wordsmith than I am.


I do have fairies at the bottom of my garden as it happens............you don't agree??? How arrogant of you.
 
I'm sitting here listening to the pouring rain, and catching up with this thread. To be honest, the conclusion I'm coming to is that no wonder there are always wars going on in the world, when you would hope that like minded people could get on with each other, express opinions without getting nasty, but no, they can't, not even on this forum...
 
glamourpuss said:
I have noticed one thing. If you don't believe in Spritualistic phenomenon & prefer scientific reasoning it would appear, according to this thread, that you are arrogant & rude. I've been called it twice & now Booboos.

Can I say I have much respect for Ellemoo. She hasn't once got angry or insulted at any of my clumsy attempts to explain her experience. In fact not being accused of rudeness/arrogance/calling her a liar is quite refreshing. It is much easier to debate & respect someone's opinion when it isn't slung at you with insults ;)
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Aww thanks :p I have complete respect for others views on this. By the way, i watched the video you linked for me earlier in the thread- very interesting stuff! I can totally see how the ideas of cold/hot reading can be used to effect- but i can honestly say that im certain this wasnt the case with my reading.
But as ive said, if that lady did somehow manage to do research on through use of internet etc me prior to seeing me and from only knowing an abbreviation of my first name- then i think she deserved that 30 quid :p

Ive just remembered (i was that blown away by the following experience that i forgot it even happened haha) I had an AC out to see my mare once when she had totally gone off the rails :o I cant remember this ladys name or anything unfortunately as it was so long ago, but i remember her saying "oooh im sensing a lot of tension, she doesnt like that trailer" :eek: etc etc and then showing me some strange riding tecniques with imagining a gold string going from my heart to the horses heart :rolleyes: It actually had the desired effect, but i guess that was because i was so focused on the amazing gold string thing that i relaxed and forgot all the other usual things i was expecting the cow bag to do to me haha... ah well i was only 16 :o:p
She also reccomended me a fantastic feed programme to start her on, which ive seen the name pop up on here a few times recently actually, she was probably just a rep for the feed company and saw me coming :o
 
glamourpuss said:
I have noticed one thing. If you don't believe in Spritualistic phenomenon & prefer scientific reasoning it would appear, according to this thread, that you are arrogant & rude. I've been called it twice & now Booboos.

Can I say I have much respect for Ellemoo. She hasn't once got angry or insulted at any of my clumsy attempts to explain her experience. In fact not being accused of rudeness/arrogance/calling her a liar is quite refreshing. It is much easier to debate & respect someone's opinion when it isn't slung at you with insults ;)
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That is not what im saying,to you or the others who base your beliefs on science and its foundations.
it is the intolerance of others beliefs that is arrogent and rude, you are entitled to your beliefs and can have them without belittling others, what they believe in is as valid as yours, and Booboos dressing up your intolerance with your " im having trouble responding attitude" let me try and explain it to the intelectually inferior " your superior attitude still doesnt make mine or their beliefs less valid than yours.
 
JFTD said:
Technically horse rider said that she prays to the patron saint of lost things and he helps her find them - not god. Since a patron saint is unlikely (in ecclesiastical terms) to be responsible for other interventions, any success with finding things is not necessarily relevant to a god sitting back and allowing the innocent to die.
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This is right. One of the traditions of the Catholic Church is that saints are patrons of different things, so a horse rider might petition St Anne for intercession in time of tragedy -or success.

Booboos said:
My second paragraph does not rubbish the religious belief, quite the contrary it assumes they are right. Assuming there is a benevolent, omniscient god who sits in judgement of our behaviour, asking him to intervene for petty, self-centred concerns is both arrogant and immoral. So by the religious person's own standards what they are doing is wrong.
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Yes, it would be if that was the only time prayer was offered.
However, as God is omnipotent, he can multi task and we are taught that he sees these small requests as a vital part of faith. Each person and the minutiae of every small life is important.

I'm not offended by anyone's views, but thank you to those that posted about respect, it is appreciated. :)
 
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