horse communicators and reason out the window

glamourpuss said:
Marydoll there are things that can be measured with respect to love. Physical reactions within our body when we see the person we love & hormone excretion. This isn't just physical attraction either studies have been done on Parents & children as well. MRI scans have shown that certain areas of the brain respond differently when we see pictures of our love ones.
So there are aspects of love that can be measured.
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Yes there are aspects of it that can be measured i agree, but that is in the main the physical attraction. Love can be be proven to exist, but it cant be quantified and for most of us we dont insist our loved ones, or people we love submit to a battery of tests before we form relationships, we take it on trust and faith :)
 
Marydoll said:
Yes there are aspects of it that can be measured i agree, but that is in the main the physical attraction. Love can be be proven to exist, but it cant be quantified and for most of us we dont insist our loved ones, or people we love submit to a battery of tests before we form relationships, we take it on trust and faith :)
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Do you mean my "strength of your love" assault course is putting off my potential mates? Is that where I've been going wrong? :eek:
 
That is true it is mostly taken on trust on faith but the point is it has shown by experiments & research to exist.....& so we go full circle the point there is nothing to prove that people can communicate with animals or have psychic ability.
 
glamourpuss said:
That is true it is mostly taken on trust on faith but the point is it has shown by experiments & research to exist.....& so we go full circle the point there is nothing to prove that people can communicate with animals or have psychic ability.
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Yes we do seem to have got side tracked, but personally i have no issue with people who want to pay people to "talk to their animals" and believe in what these people tell them
 
glamourpuss said:
Here are 2 readings. One from one of the top Psychics in the US & one from one of the top pysychics in the UK.
All I ask is you watch them & really ask yourself what information the reader is giving & what is actually being given by the girl being read.
http://youtu.be/dh2IlmaCOVQ
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I'm afraid you are missing the point. Perhaps you are reading only that which you which to see? As I have said before, I completely agree that many 'mediums' etc are charlatans but not all are IMO.

The two conversations which you guessed at were not only erroneous but also completely irrelevant. The 2 'readings' posted about were not done in the presence of the person the reading was for. One was done with a photograph of a horse and reported by email, with no on-going interaction with the horse-owner. The other was given over the phone and again, the recipient reports that there was no interaction. Therefore there can have been no 'reading', cold or otherwise of either recipient.
 
Marydoll said:
Yes we do seem to have got side tracked, but personally i have no issue with people who want to pay people to "talk to their animals" and believe in what these people tell them
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What a fascinating, and at times, hilarious thread!

I honestly believe that, say I've lost my nerve riding (actually, I have) and a communicator comes to have a word with my horse, and tells me my horse has said that if I stand on my head, spin round, click my heels three times and say "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more" everything will be fine, that'll be twenty five quid please, so I try it and lo and behold, I'm cantering towards a 4ft jump screaming "Yee-haar", does it really matter if it was so much bull***** if it did the trick? The mind is a very powerful thing!

I'm not sure it's fair to say they're all charlatans either - it's a safe bet that many communicators, good or bad, actually themselves BELIEVE what they're saying is true, which does not make them frauds or tricksters.

I'd say 75% are genuine, believing they do have a gift, 20% a rip-off artists, and 5% have a similar gift/talent as Derren Brown - the ability to read the owner. My definition of a confidence trickster is someone who charges a shed load of hard-earned to impart what they know is total rubbish.

As far as stolen horses disclosing their whereabouts to the authorities, I'm an avid reader of true crime, and have lost count of the number of psychics and clairvoyants who have taken their visions and claims to the police, were rapidly shown the door having left a statement, only to be vindicated when the crimes have eventually been solved.

Serephin said:
I prefer to have an open mind.

It is sheer arrogance, or perhaps fear, to imagine you understand everything on heaven and earth, a condition that the human race constantly suffers for.
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Agree with this - generally I'm quite a down to earth person who needs proof of everything but we simply have to accept there is such a lot we don't know about the human psyche.
 
I guess it's like religion - you either believe or you don't.....imo there is so much we don't understand or know about ..yet...!!! So perhaps it is best not to decry or denigrate other peoples opinions but have an open mind and say 'anything is possible'....and accept that we are all different - not worse/ignorant/better - just different....
 
Marydoll said:
Excuse me, dont tell me what i mean to say, i do mean valid, and youve not answered my question, how do you measure love ? How do we prove it exists, it does of that we are sure, but it cant be quantified, or pidgeon holed, its based on trust and belief. You continually try to talk down to people who hold beliefs that are based on the spiritual .
We could argue the point back and forth but i cant see us agreeing therefore i will agree to disagree with you
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I am not telling you what you mean to say, I am telling you what the words mean and that what you say is not compatible with what the words mean.

For example, take you comment to Gloi when he/she said "Anything that has no rhyme or reason to it is automatically invalid" and you replied "In your opinion" - this reply can only be a joke (perhaps you did intend it as a joke, in which case the following is boring for you, just skip to love below).

Gloi's comment is a tautology, an argument which is definitionally true and therefore cannot be denied without inconsistency, like "All batchelors are unmarried men". Provided you understand the terms and are not applying them sarcastically, this sentence is true, always true and true for everyone regardless of anybody's opinion on the matter because 'batchelor' means 'unmarried man'.

An invalid argument is an argument whose conclusion does not follow from the premises, a non-sensical argument, an argument with no rhyme or reason. Hence Gloi's sentence is always and necessarily true, not true in anyone's opinion.
 
'Im getting the name............John. Do we have a John in the audience?'



'Your mother, she were quite young when she died, am I right?'

'94'

'Ah...but.....but she were young at heart weren't she? Young in herself?'

'Oh yes, that was mum alright. (He's good, this fella!)'

:D
 
On the proof of love we need to clarify the question:

1. Do we mean do we have personal proof that love exists? Well, setting aside possibilities of gross self-deceit I can know on a first personal level that I feel love, to the same extent that I can know that I feel pain, fear, excitment, etc. Since these are our own experiences and the conclusion is how we feel, introspection is sufficient proof.

An interlude here to point out that the type of proof one looks for has to be relevant to the entreprise one is trying to prove. If I am trying to prove that not all swans are white, all I need is a black swan, but a black swan is not also proof of anything else I need to prove, suitable proof will vary in each case. So in the case of the possibility of ME feeling love all I need is the first personal experience of love.

2. Can we prove that others love us? Well here we are immediately stuck we the other minds problem, i.e. we can't prove that other minds exist as we don't have first personal experience of being them (exactly like the movie The Matrix). Putting such global doubts aside we have evidence about a person's character from their actions, i.e. a loving person will behave lovingly in situations that require the expression of love, e.g. she will be loyal, supportive and understanding of the loved on. This is not conclusive proof, as someone may be faking all these motives, but it is as much proof as the subject matter allows.

3. We can have disproof of love though, as some actions are incompatible with the profession of love, e.g. a man who regularly beats up his wife black and blue cannot consistently claim to love her as this is not the behaviour of a loving person.

When it comes to psychics the evidence we need for proving the case is fairly straight-forward, i.e. we pop a psychic and a horse in very well controlled laboratory conditions with no (other) means of communication and eliminating the possibility of conspirators, show the horse random objects and the psychic tells us what they are - easy-peasy and proves mind reading. Sadly no psychic has ever passed this test and most refuse to sit it.
 
Alyth said:
I guess it's like religion - you either believe or you don't.....imo there is so much we don't understand or know about ..yet...!!! So perhaps it is best not to decry or denigrate other peoples opinions but have an open mind and say 'anything is possible'....and accept that we are all different - not worse/ignorant/better - just different....
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Most religions expect people to accept the existence of god on faith and faith is exactly the lack of reason and proof (hence the expression 'leap of faith', you mentally jump into faith rather than reason your way to it). While some religions allow for miracles, none (to my knowldge) make miracles or other displays of divine power necessary as proof of god's existence.

Why should we rely on faith to prove a human faculty like mind reading? If someone says that they can see or hear we can test this by going to the optometrist and the ENT specialist, we don't accept it on faith. If someone says that they can read minds well they can prove it. Interestingly no psychic shows up any activity in fMRI scans while they are reading minds.

If anything is possible then other people being wrong is possible! But that in itself is not huge cause for concern, we are all wrong, all the time. It would be weird to try to deny this. The problem is the refusal to accept that one is wrong when all the evidence points in that direction.

None of this means that we are not all worthy of equal respect as inherently valuable human beings. We can still matter (morally speaking) even though we hold beliefs that are wrong from time to time.
 
There is no explaining many of the psychic events that occur. There are people who have a gift of being able to 'read' events that they know nothing about both past and present. I se that there could be people who can do the same with animals but I have yet to meet one!

I have always been a bit 'fey' knowing things that I have no experience of. It is not as it I have dreamed it but more that I have heard it or read it. An example of this was many years ago when I was on a tube in London. I was sitting next to a smart man who was reading The Times.
For no reason at all I turned and out m hand on his arm and said "Excuse me sir, are you travelling to America?"
He looked at me and replied "Yes, I am going home for Christmas."
I then said to him, "Please change your flight, do not travel on 103."
he looked at me as if I was nuts. I had no clue as to what I was saying or why.
He asked me, "Why do you say that?"
"I do not know, it is as if I read it in your paper but please do not go on 103."
I had no valid reason for coming out with such thing, it was something that without thinking I blurted out.

I thought it strange for a couple of days and then forgot it. About three weeks later there was the Lockerbie disaster - flight 103.

Absolutely no explanation of why I 'knew' or said what I did. It was not the first time it had happened, nor the last.

I am a great believer with horses of 'thinking' in pictures as to what I want a horse to do and generally it works.

I have had many psychic experiences with horses in that I have suddenly been woken from a deep sleep knowing that something is wrong and gone to investigate to be proven correct. Found a horse cast or sick.
One night I was awoken by pebbles being thrown against my bedroom window. On looking out there was an elderly man, dressed in a brown farmers coat pointing towards the barn. I went to see to find a horse had rolled, got under the feed trough in the loose barn, and lifted the trough off the catches and was well and truly trapped. The man just vanished. He appeared another time on a filthy night, he was pointing down across the field. I went to investigate and he just kept ahead of me. WHen he started down across the field I turned and got the ATV. I had no horses out but, having been 'told' by him before I was going to follow.
My collie was also following this man.
Across one field and into the next he stopped and pointed to the woods. I drove across to look and found a neighbours heifer upside down in the ditch, in danger of drowning. When I looked back the man had gone.
These things, and many others, make me believe that there are clairvoyants but generally there are more charlatans than there are genuine.
The person who turns up and says that a horse doesn't like a certain colour or is missing a friend is more than likely saying what an owner wants to hear. Reading people is not difficult. Body language gives much away.
I have only met one animal communicator - she was a top American and had been on TV and read pets for many stars. She was good in that she read people very well but, not the animals. What she said about one horse was 100% incorrect and when I told her this she was very quick to say "Well, this was in a previous life."
She had been brought over to read a horse in race training. She said he wanted all sorts of things to make him better. It was all carried out but never worked.
I, not an animal communicator, knew what the horse needed. He needed a change in his routine. He came to me, was hunted for a season, freshened up, went to a different trainer and won several races afterwards.

It seems to me that the people who use these communicators have problems with their animals, they do not know how to solve the problem(s) so resort to paying in desperation and hearing what they want to hear.
A good reader will hit on some truths, the owner will give clues by their reaction even on the phone. They will take what they want to hear and forget the rest.
 
Wow Foxhunter49 what an interesting post & nice to see another person who, despite personal experience which you can't explain, you seem able to see reason & evidence behind so say animal communication & psychics.

Pearlasinger how the readings are done is irrelevant whether it be by phone or email the premise is the same except there isn't the instant feedback from the person being read. The written ones just rely more heavily on Barnum statements & our confirmation bias & heavily on confirmation of incomplete evidence (cherry picking)
I'll admit again my attempts to recreate the 'conversations' were clumsy BUT there is no denying this is how these conversations & readings go hence the 2 you tube examples - the UK one is hilarious.

I recently went on a self defence course. The teacher talked about intuition & people trusting their intuition. He however didn't tell us this intuition was something magical he just said it was us picking up on the tiny, almost impossible to see clues being given to us constantly, usually not even registering consciously.
 
Would we agree that some people are more "in tune" with instinct/ gut feeling and so may appear to have psychic abilities then? Im sure many of us have had experiences where we feel the urgent random need to do or check on something and find that someone or something needs our help, or we manage to avoid a disaster etc......is our subconcious picking up on something? Is it psychic ability....or is it in fact the same thing?
 
Hippona I do agree with you, the gut feeling is the ability to pick up on the tiny clues being given.

I mentioned earlier that I don't even think that these readers are being intentional fraudsters. I honestly think that for the majority their ability to pick up on the tiny clues or use phraseology which supports cherry picking is so innate to them that it feels like they are reading minds/communicating with animals or spirits.
 
Regandal said:
Wasn't there something in the news a short while ago about science discovering a "God" thingy? Can't remember the exact details, but it might have had something to do with energy. Best pseudo-science I came across was "Angels & Demons" by the guy who wrote the Davinci Code. Fabulous.
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LOL!
There is no god involved in the Higgs boson.
The nickname for the Higgs boson is attributed to Leon Lederman, who wrote a book 'The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?'. Lederman had originally intended to refer to it as the "goddamn particle" due to the difficulty in detecting it but the name got changed by the publisher and has been picked up by the mass media.
confession - I like reading books on quantum physics but I still hardly understand it.
 
So....if some people are more instinctive and intuitive than others.....does it follow that certain sensitive people are actually able to "see" that which is not visible to others? Several posters have mentioned sightings of spirits...or of people/ animals that were not "really" there or not seen by others. This is where the subject of proof/evidence becomes frustrating isnt it....because people do sense or see things which cannot be quantified or reproduced .....nevertheless they are real experiences.......
 
Hippona said:
So....if some people are more instinctive and intuitive than others.....does it follow that certain sensitive people are actually able to "see" that which is not visible to others? Several posters have mentioned sightings of spirits...or of people/ animals that were not "really" there or not seen by others. This is where the subject of proof/evidence becomes frustrating isnt it....because people do sense or see things which cannot be quantified or reproduced .....nevertheless they are real experiences.......
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Reading body language, being quick on the uptake, noticing details that escape others, being more aware of emotional changes in others, etc. are definitely abilities some people have more than others. You can even see people at the other end of the scale, e.g. people on the autistic spectrum often have difficulties in seeing the subtle communication clues that make social interaction possible.

Being aware of psychological phenomenal like confirmation bias, memory reconstruction, peer group influence, etc. also makes us less likely to be affected by these biases (plenty of studies out there on all of that, if anyone is interested PM me for some examples).

However all this can be both quantified and reproduced under laboratory conditions and does not warrant the inference that there are ghosts, fairies, magical powers or mind reading.
 
glamourpuss said:
All I ask is you watch them & really ask yourself what information the reader is giving & what is actually being given by the girl being read.
http://youtu.be/dh2IlmaCOVQ
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I only just got round to seeing a few minutes of this, then had to stop it. This is nothing short of abuse of that young woman. If she were my daughter and that psychic had done that to her you would have to stop me from physical violence.
 
Again.....we are back to the point that people DO see things that others do not/cannot.
Even if we do not draw inference from gut feeling/instinct and the existence of spirits......and seperate the two.....do you say to people who HAVE seen inexplicable phenomena that they have not? Surely its subjective, and you cannot say with certainty that someone must not have seen something on the basis that you cannot? Or would you put it down to trick of the light etc?
 
YorksG said:
My understanding is that the earth is an ovid, with flattened 'points' at the poles, therefore it is not 'round' like a football, which was the belief after the earth was proven not to be flat.
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Technically speaking, the earth is approximately geoid (which means earth-shaped) - only approximately, because it has bumps and grooves on its surface, which the geoid doesn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if the earth was as 'round' as a typical football - the difference between the shape of the earth and a perfect sphere is about 1 part in 300. I don't think someone far enough away from the earth to see the whole thing would be able to tell the difference between it and a sphere.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
There is no explaining many of the psychic events that occur. There are people who have a gift of being able to 'read' events that they know nothing about both past and present. I se that there could be people who can do the same with animals but I have yet to meet one!

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It seems to me that the people who use these communicators have problems with their animals, they do not know how to solve the problem(s) so resort to paying in desperation and hearing what they want to hear.
A good reader will hit on some truths, the owner will give clues by their reaction even on the phone. They will take what they want to hear and forget the rest.
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Just to be clear, no money changed hands, YorksG merely answered a request from a student for help. We were extremely sceptical and knew a great deal about the horse's history - we have seen her breeders at many shows over the years, even before we bought her, so were fairly sure that we were unlikely to believe any 'wooliness' in reading. There were no problems with the horse, she was and still is a healthy, happy well-mannered horse. The things the AC told us were merely interesting, in that they were true, particular to that horse and factual.
 
Hippona said:
So....if some people are more instinctive and intuitive than others.....does it follow that certain sensitive people are actually able to "see" that which is not visible to others? Several posters have mentioned sightings of spirits...or of people/ animals that were not "really" there or not seen by others. This is where the subject of proof/evidence becomes frustrating isnt it....because people do sense or see things which cannot be quantified or reproduced .....nevertheless they are real experiences.......
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I believe that this is so.
ESP is often looked down on and when a child, and children are far more perceptive than most adults, comes out with something like 'Granddad was sat on the end of my bed reading a story,' when Granddad had been dead for a couple of years, it is passed over.

The first 'experience' I remember was when I was about 8 years, I was very ill with a bad migraine. The man who collected insurance money had called and he always teased me. He had, as usual, had a coffee with Mum and as he was leaving he said to Mum "See you next week."
Mum came into m room to see if there was anything I wanted and I told her that she wouldn't see him again because he was going to be run over by a bicycle and die.
Mum naturally told me that I shouldn't say such things, it wasn't very nice.

A few days later the man was walking up a hill near his home, he suffered a massive heart attack and fell into the road in the path of a cyclist who couldn't avoid him
OK it was a heart attack that killed him but a cyclist was involved!
When you see things like this, even as a child you do not go around stating the fact. Adults will tell you it is not nice and so you learn to just keep them to yourself.
I often wonder if I had worked at it and had some training whether I would have been able to communicate with the other side!
 
Hippona said:
Again.....we are back to the point that people DO see things that others do not/cannot.
Even if we do not draw inference from gut feeling/instinct and the existence of spirits......and seperate the two.....do you say to people who HAVE seen inexplicable phenomena that they have not? Surely its subjective, and you cannot say with certainty that someone must not have seen something on the basis that you cannot? Or would you put it down to trick of the light etc?
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It depends on the circumstances and I am no doctor but for example if someone was experiencing visual hallucinations I would be concerned about problems with their brain, e.g. tumous, neurological problems, e.g. seizures, disturbances of the visual cortex, problems with the brain's chemistry, e.g. metabolic disorders, sleep disorders, migraines, problems with vision, psychoses, etc.

Some of these problems may be ongoing and undiagnosed, e.g. seizures can go undiagnosed and may be accompanied by visual hallucinations.

In fact some hallucinations are very spefically linked to physiological disorders so that by mentioning the hallucination we know what the physical problem is. For example, sleep paralysis disorder (which is a fairly common problem, even if you do a search on HHO you will find threads on it atlhough it is not always recognised by its official name) is associated with specific hallucinations: either a man in the room, or a creature at different historical times interpreted as a demon or an alien. Given that this disorder also causes feelings of extreme panic, pressure on the chest and feelings of being in great danger, all while being almost completely paralyzed you can kind of see why people's imaginations runswild.

Here is a short study attributing alien abduction experiences to sleep paralysis:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/ejufoas00.html

Now add to all this our tendency to misinterpret coincidence for causation, confirmation bias and restructuring of memories and you have a complete explanation.
 
Yes....all that is true ...as is what comes next.
OH's cousin (K) is clairvoyant. Sees dead people. Its not something she makes known for reasons clearly demonstrated on this thread. Shes not ill, no brain tumours....its a family trait. My daughter used to see spirits when she was younger.....too you to lie, make associations etc etc. K told me the reason our son was having disturbed sleep was that he was being visited by an old lady ....that he couldnt see her, and that my daughter then aged 3 could and had seen her. 2 weeks prior to that, daughter had asked me who the grey lady was who was following us on the lane....there was nobody there, I asked daughter where she had gone and daughter said she had floated into the sky...
I asked K where daughter had seen this old lady.....K was able to describe exactly where we were when it happened, somewhere she has never been. K then said the old lady was telling her she was my gran, and she was seeing a picture of my gran standing on my landing, slamming the bathroom door.
None of the doors on the upstairs of my house drift shut, they all have to be physically moved because they were hung before the carpets. You can have every window open and none of them move.....except that evening when we were going upstairs and the bathroom door slammed shut...
We spent ages trying to make it do it again.....in 12 years of living at this house in all kinds of situations its never done it before or since.We jumped around on the landing....opened windows, wafted other doors.....nothing. It HAS to be physically moved.
So whilst I agree with what youve written Booboos.....I still cannot discount my own experiences....I still am certain theres things that cannot be explained away
 
Booboos said:
When it comes to psychics the evidence we need for proving the case is fairly straight-forward, i.e. we pop a psychic and a horse in very well controlled laboratory conditions with no (other) means of communication and eliminating the possibility of conspirators, show the horse random objects and the psychic tells us what they are - easy-peasy and proves mind reading. Sadly no psychic has ever passed this test and most refuse to sit it.
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Unfortunately, when I tried to test this out - they picked a heterophobic gelding who held a grudge against me for preferring mares so he conveyed the wrong images to get back at me!
 
The problem with science is that it wants to prove everything and when it cannot it will pooh pooh the whole idea. Then a few years later something will be proven when old folk law had said it all along.

I have met many excellent clairvoyants - the most outstanding was Jess.
My little sister returned an empty Coke bottle to a cafe where I was working. Jess was at the counter.
My sis placed the bottle and was walking out when Jess called her back. "Little girl, come here I have something to tell you."
My sister was then spoken to for a few minutes. Later she told me that the woman had told her she was going to be in a competition, and that she and her partner would win but, to not be in a hurry as there was going to be a second part to the competition and neither she nor her partner would look so smart but they would still win and rtake home a great big cup.

Months later at a show my sis was riding in a riding class, she was not on her usual pony but on a bigger one. She won. As her next class was jumping she took her jacket off, unplaited the pony. Next thing there was an announcement that 1st and 2nds in classes 1, 2 & 3 were to ride off for a cup just presented.
Sis was the youngest by far. She was upset as her jacket was trodden on, the pony not plaited but she won a very hideous cup about 2 feet tall.
Only as she came out the ring did she recall what she had been told.
Jess had 'read' it all in the empty Coke bottle and, believe me that woman could read a glass of water very accurately.
 
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