horse died at riding club hunter trial

burness_21 said:
I know of someone who lost a horse that they had purchased as a fit and ready to go eventer who she had vetted and passed with flying colours. Three weeks later she had a heart attack while jumping into the water on their first xc together. This was not picked up in the vet report.
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Vettings do not pick up everything, no. A heart condition can develop at any time. However, I would rather be aware of anything that a vetting might highlight if I wanted to put my horse into hard work. To me, it is just a sensible thing to do. It's not hard or ridiculously expensive. Just one five star vetting (no more expensive than a good rug, and a one off), and then vet does quick check over at vaccination time. It took the vet ten seconds to detect the heart problem of the mare I mentioned above.
 
EstherYoung said:
Blitznbobs - absolutely. Two entirely different things. A serious kind of murmur can cause heart failure, but a heart murmur is not what killed the two poor horses referred to in this thread.

Wagtail wrote:


The 'grading' for heart murmurs is purely on their loudness, not their seriousness. The seriousness depends on which valves are leaking into which chamber and is a separate issue. If the vet's a decent vet, they can give you a reasonable degree of certainty as to whereabouts in the cycle the murmur is occurring, but the only way to tell for sure is to get them on a treadmill and ecg/ultrasound them.

Horses hearts are notoriously untidy in their operation, they're not little tight operations like people, they're large gallopin' pumps. As the horse gets fitter and the heart muscle increases in size, they get even more untidy, particularly at rest. You quite often find very fit horses with murmurs, or that drop beats left right and centre, because heart is so large and so fit that it doesn't have enough to do when the horse isn't gallopin'. TBs particularly are prone to them, as genetically they have very big hearts, to the point where actually you'd probably struggle to find a TB who doesn't drop beats and/or display a murmur when fit.

The fact that the mare's murmur has decreased when she lost fitness indicates that maybe it wasn't the serious type, and that it was a fitness related one instead. If it had been the serious 'drop dead at any moment' type, believe me the vet would not have passed her fit for riding club activities (which after all still require the mare to be fit enough to canter and jump safely).

The other reason the murmur could have decreased is if the original murmur was caused by a virus - sick horses often display murmurs too.
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Thank you. She's not my horse, and I admit I would still be a bit nervous doing anything with her if she were mine. But I was there when the original vet vetted her and told me there was little doubt that if she had continued racing she would have collapsed. He said he could hear the murmer equally badly in all four chambers. Anyway, a trip to Rossdales and she was cleared for riding cub level work but deemed unsuitable for anything more strenuous than that.

What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.
 
Wagtail said:
What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.
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You have been told repeatedly that levels of fitness affect the operation of the heart muscle, so it responds differently when fit, therefore it is of little relevance testing a horse before it commences a fitness regime.
Good God, I pity your poor liveries who must have vets bills bigger than my mortgage
 
So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
 
Wagtail said:
So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
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Head, desk...............................:o
 
Wagtail said:
So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
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OK I will make this simple especially for you!

I have kept horses for 30 yrs, Emerald is the second horse I have had die of something other than old age, my first horse had grass sickness, he was 4. A vetting wouldn't have picked anything up to indicate that would happen. Emerald was 10 and fully fit having been in hard work for 4 years (and 2 years prior to that racing), what could be gained from doing anything other than listening to their heart that would suggest a valve rupture or haemorrhage was going to happen? I don't know what my horse died of, as once they are dead there is very little point in carrying out a post mortem.
So in 30 yrs I have owned 12 or so horses and only 2 have died or been ill/injured, one of my friends has owned horses for 15 years and has had 8 horses I think, of which each and every one has been deemed unrideable due to various conditions, she has all of hers insured and obviously vetted, so can you only say based on my (I grant you not the most representative sample) experience, that the vetting and insurance is pointless.
 
Wagtail said:
So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
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Wagtail! I will send you a JCB to increase the size of the hole you are digging yourself into! Maybe once you can no longer see over the top you will think before you type.

Pre purchase vet checks if the horse is expensive is a sensible thing to do, though it is no guarantee that the horse will survive the trip home from the seller.

Vetting required by the Insurance company is to safeguard their money - not yours. They don't want to insure a horse with an underlying problem.

In 45yrs of working/owning/teaching with horses etc I've only ever had three horses vetted.

An experienced horseperson will judge the condition of the horse by looking at it, weight, muscle tone, atitude, will feel how it is working, (is it stiff on one side,taking a slightly shorter step with one hind leg, unhappy being saddled or bridled these may be symptoms of soreness) they may check respiration and heart rate with a stethescope before and after fast work - The faster the recovery the fitter the horse. The less the heart beats per minute the fitter the horse.

If a horse has been unwell - eg strangles or flu then I might consider a vet check before starting work again - more likely though I will give the horse a spell out in the paddock for a few weeks and then take several weeks to quietly bring him up to fitness level.

Bringing the horse up to fitness is more risky than the actual performance as the unfit horse is more likely to risk injury.

I really suggest that you sign up for some evening classes in general horsemangement especially related to getting horses fit for competition. Step outside your comfort zone and learn more, experience more.
 
Wagtail said:
Thank you. She's not my horse, and I admit I would still be a bit nervous doing anything with her if she were mine. But I was there when the original vet vetted her and told me there was little doubt that if she had continued racing she would have collapsed. He said he could hear the murmer equally badly in all four chambers. Anyway, a trip to Rossdales and she was cleared for riding cub level work but deemed unsuitable for anything more strenuous than that.

What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.
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But that's not what a 5 stage vetting is designed for. The vetting is a pre-purchase exam. It's the same procedure for little ponies and draught horses and eventers with the vet deciding from a limited amount of information what level of work a horse is potentially capable of. Even so, a vetting can only tell you that a horse was fit for any particular purpose on THAT day. If the vetting were sufficient, then the mare you describe would not have required an additional trip to Rossdales. If you REALLY wanted to test a horse's ability to stand up to hard work surely you'd NOT have a vetting but a full finess work up; x-rays, tendon scanning, scoping (on a treadmill, obviously, as meaningless on a horse at rest), etc, etc, etc.
 
Ditto Evelyn - I think the longer you have / work with horses the more you see vettings as being worthless - They are literally what the vet can see on that day and you can flexion lame a horse if you try hard enough

I think we've only ever had a few vetted (although this may be because we buy cheap horses!!)

With regards to heart conditions - you are totally reliant on the ears of your vet and without a second opinion usually! To a certain extent ignorance is bliss.

Life is short and it is inevitable that you will loose a horse of something sooner or later as livestock means deadstock.

Again I think I'd rather have a heart attack horse than one that slowly degenerates and forces you to make a decision.

Condolences to those who have lost horses this way, but I am pleased they left this world doing something they loved.
 
Baggybreeches said:
OK I will make this simple especially for you!

I have kept horses for 30 yrs, Emerald is the second horse I have had die of something other than old age, my first horse had grass sickness, he was 4. A vetting wouldn't have picked anything up to indicate that would happen. Emerald was 10 and fully fit having been in hard work for 4 years (and 2 years prior to that racing), what could be gained from doing anything other than listening to their heart that would suggest a valve rupture or haemorrhage was going to happen? I don't know what my horse died of, as once they are dead there is very little point in carrying out a post mortem.
So in 30 yrs I have owned 12 or so horses and only 2 have died or been ill/injured, one of my friends has owned horses for 15 years and has had 8 horses I think, of which each and every one has been deemed unrideable due to various conditions, she has all of hers insured and obviously vetted, so can you only say based on my (I grant you not the most representative sample) experience, that the vetting and insurance is pointless.
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That is fair enough. I respect your experience as I have kept horses for forty years now and have come to the opposite opinion. You make decisions based on your experiences, and as yours are different from mine, you will have a different view point. I suppose I was just shocked that anyone would P2P without conducting a full health check of their horse as it would be unthinkable for me. But I do understand where you are coming from based on your own experience and judgements. I could be hacking out or doing a dressage test tomorrow and my own horse could have a heart attack. I don't get cheap horses vetted until they are at a level where I want to do harder work with them. But if I buy an expensive horse, I have them vetted for insurance purposes and because I usually buy them for competition. I have done very well from having horses insured and am by far the better off financially for it. The one horse I didn't insure (because he was dumped on me by a non paying livery and therefore was not mine) I ended up paying £4k for a colic operation for him and he still died! But he was a lovely boy and I wouldn't change that decision even though I had to take out a loan to pay for it. He deserved every chance.
 
Wagtail said:
That was two years ago. She was given the all clear by the vet to compete at riding club level. Her heart murmur has been down graded this year. The vet is a Newmarket vet who okayed her. :)
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I would be looking for another opinion tbh if you used that practice, one of the top diagnostic vets there bought his OH a horse, spent a fortune on it and even took it to the vets for an extra tough vetting, scans, you name it, horse dropped down dead in the field a few years later due to a heart problem!
 
lochpearl said:
I would be looking for another opinion tbh if you used that practice, one of the top diagnostic vets there bought his OH a horse, spent a fortune on it and even took it to the vets for an extra tough vetting, scans, you name it, horse dropped down dead in the field a few years later due to a heart problem!
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As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.
 
Wagtail said:
As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.
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I said the horse went to the clinic for extensive testing, this was not just listening to the heart, the whole body was scanned and xrayed. Hence my comment that if these wonderful vets there can miss it in their own horse then they could also have missed it in yours.
 
Wagtail said:
TI don't get cheap horses vetted until they are at a level where I want to do harder work with them. But if I buy an expensive horse, I have them vetted for insurance purposes and because I usually buy them for competition.
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So it's about money then? You don't care if a cheap horse drops down dead until you've invested some time and energy into them?

Seriously, you're obviously dizzy with all these about turns and back-peddling, initially it was supposedly to do with the welfare aspect..........:rolleyes:
 
lochpearl said:
I said the horse went to the clinic for extensive testing, this was not just listening to the heart, the whole body was scanned and xrayed. Hence my comment that if these wonderful vets there can miss it in their own horse then they could also have missed it in yours.
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Very true. I have plenty experience of vets getting it wrong, believe me. I have been through many vets before getting one that I trust, though he too will not be infallible. But I am not going to put a horse into hard work without getting it checked out first. I think it is a financial price worth paying personally. But not everyone agrees, I know that too. It's entirely up to them.
 
Wagtail said:
As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.
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So in fact 5 stage vetting wouldn't pick up on many heart problems and are basically useless when assessing a horse's ability to cope with hard work.
 
Blimey Wagtail, I feel sorry for your bank balance!

TBH, if you have had horses for 40+ years and still can't gauge if your horse is fit enough/sound enough to stand up to the competition you intend to enter, then you have been doing something seriously wrong! It must be all the about turns you keep doing :rolleyes:
 
PapaFrita said:
So in fact 5 stage vetting wouldn't pick up on many heart problems and are basically useless when assessing a horse's ability to cope with hard work.
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Where did the word 'many' come from? I said that it would not pick up 'all' heart conditions. But it does measure a horses ability to recover from exercise as well as simply listening to the heart at rest, which is an important health check. If you and others don't want to spend the money, that is entirely up to you. I think it is a sensible precaution. It is not only designed to pick up on heart conditions.
 
Wagtail said:
Where did the word 'many' come from? I said that it would not pick up 'all' heart conditions. But it does measure a horses ability to recover from exercise as well as simply listening to the heart at rest, which is an important health check. If you and others don't want to spend the money, that is entirely up to you. I think it is a sensible precaution. It is not only designed to pick up on heart conditions.
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I wouldn't spend it on a vetting which is not designed to assess a horse's ability to cope with heavy work except at THAT particular point in time. And if I were just getting a horse's heart checked, a full vetting wouldn't be necessary.
Personally (and I mentioned this earlier) if I had doubts, I'd get scans, x-rays, scopes etc, and even those are open to interpretation and far from definitive. I don't think there's a vet in the world that would give you a guarantee that any particular horse will remain free from any illness or injury for any length of time, so it's all a bit arbitrary, isn't it?
 
PapaFrita said:
I wouldn't spend it on a vetting which is not designed to assess a horse's ability to cope with heavy work except at THAT particular point in time. And if I were just getting a horse's heart checked, a full vetting wouldn't be necessary.
Personally (and I mentioned this earlier) if I had doubts, I'd get scans, x-rays, scopes etc, and even those are open to interpretation and far from definitive. I don't think there's a vet in the world that would give you a guarantee that any particular horse will remain free from any illness or injury for any length of time, so it's all a bit arbitrary, isn't it?
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No, not really. If the mare I mentioned earlier were mine and I wanted her for eventing, then the vets findings would stop me from doing that activity with her. She appeared incrediby fit and had been on my yard a month when we got her vetted for my client to purchase. There is no way I would have had any idea she was unsuitable for hard work had she not been vetted. Two years on, she still has her heart murmur (checked at her last vaccination), and so I still would not event her. But she looks as fit as a fiddle and feels lovely to ride. Her owner negotiated a much reduced purchase price for her and is very happy. But she is so thankful that she knows the mare has a potential problem and can therefor manage it accordingly. Of course, there are no guarantees that the mare will not just keel over, but at least the owner knows she is riding her within the boundaries recommended by the vets.
 
Wagtail said:
No, not really. If the mare I mentioned earlier were mine and I wanted her for eventing, then the vets findings would stop me from doing that activity with her. She appeared incrediby fit and had been on my yard a month when we got her vetted for my client to purchase. There is no way I would have had any idea she was unsuitable for hard work had she not been vetted. Two years on, she still has her heart murmur (checked at her last vaccination), and so I still would not event her. But she looks as fit as a fiddle and feels lovely to ride. Her owner negotiated a much reduced purchase price for her and is very happy. But she is so thankful that she knows the mare has a potential problem and can therefor manage it accordingly. Of course, there are no guarantees that the mare will not just keel over, but at least the owner knows she is riding her within the boundaries recommended by the vets.
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So, if you'd had a horse for a while, you'd still get it vetted before starting harder work, in preference to a vet just checking the heart or a full fitness work up (as described in a previous post)?
 
PapaFrita said:
So, if you'd had a horse for a while, you'd still get it vetted before starting harder work, in preference to a vet just checking the heart or a full fitness work up (as described in a previous post)?
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I would ask (as I have in the past) for a full basic health check of the horse. This would include some of the things that are carried out during a 5 * vetting such as checking the heart and lungs before and after strenuous exercise and when it has been rested for 20 - 30 minutes. I would also have flexion tests done and anything the vet suspects warrants further investigation. This has only happened twice though as most of my horses have been vetted on purchase. Both horses I had checked out passed as sound so cost me around £150 - £200 each. I thought it was money well spent for my peace of mind and the welfare of the horse. Others here obviously do not agree and that is their call. :)
 
fburton said:
TBH, I'm surprised to hear that. Did the vet say what he/she was looking for in the radiographs?
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The vet was spending a lot of money on the horse and just wanted to cover everything, the horse had a whole day of every test they could possibly do just so they were sure that it was sound and well.
 
Wagtail said:
I would ask (as I have in the past) for a full basic health check of the horse. This would include some of the things that are carried out during a 5 * vetting such as checking the heart and lungs before and after strenuous exercise and when it has been rested for 20 - 30 minutes. I would also have flexion tests done and anything the vet suspects warrants further investigation. This has only happened twice though as most of my horses have been vetted on purchase. Both horses I had checked out passed as sound so cost me around £150 - £200 each. I thought it was money well spent for my peace of mind and the welfare of the horse. Others here obviously do not agree and that is their call. :)
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One final question. Soo, if vettings/health checks are unreliable (you've said yourself things can be missed/problems develop at any time), both the owner of the horse that died at the HT and Baggybreeches COULD have had the horses checked and the checks could still have missed something crucial OR the problem could've not been one that would be picked up on the usual scans. So in fact there is nothing 'obvious' about either death and you were unfair to leap to conclusions.
 
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