HORSE electric collar!!

Fany Du Champ said:
I really hope they are a fake. If not then that is too cruel for words.
FDC
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...and probably illegal in the UK. No, not fake.

Hopefully, they will also be illegal for use on dogs here in the UK. Illegal in Wales, soon to become illegal in Scotland, and hopefully England and Ireland will follow suit.

A lot of Americans train using these devices.

As Ebay bans the inclusion of a whole variety of dodgy items, maybe we should campaign for these to be banned too?
 
I have no comment on these regarding horses, but re dogs, I have tried one on my wrist a few weeks ago. Felt like lemonade being spilled on my arm. I don't have two layers of hair on my wrist either.

The reason people hate these collars is misuse - slap a collar on - bad dog -ZAP! When that is not how they should be used. If this was the only way they were used, then yeah, ban them.

They should be used like the way you would grab someone - a little old lady or a child - by the sleeve before they step into the path of a lorry.
So - dog is not paying attention, zoning out with a view chase something or other, about to run out in front of a car - apply collar - dog switches attention to handler because it has been distracted by a sensation and looks for guidance - once you have attention recall, praise, reward.

For the record, I have never used one and don't intend to but if it is the difference between a pop on the neck when all else has failed and a dog shot for sheep worrying then I know what I would rather have.

I am sorry but not ALL dogs respond to a bag of treats and a pat on the head.
There are some dogs you cannot shout at and there are some dogs who's drive to chase is stronger than any sort of 'bond' you can build with them.

I don't think they should be sold willy nilly to the public, only used through properly trained trainers. Timing is key.

If they are banned, I reckon we will see a lot more dead dogs.
 
CaveCanem said:
I have no comment on these regarding horses, but re dogs, I have tried one on my wrist a few weeks ago. Felt like lemonade being spilled on my arm. I don't have two layers of hair on my wrist either.

The reason people hate these collars is misuse - slap a collar on - bad dog -ZAP! When that is not how they should be used. If this was the only way they were used, then yeah, ban them.

They should be used like the way you would grab someone - a little old lady or a child - by the sleeve before they step into the path of a lorry.
So - dog is not paying attention, zoning out with a view chase something or other, about to run out in front of a car - apply collar - dog switches attention to handler because it has been distracted by a sensation and looks for guidance - once you have attention recall, praise, reward.

For the record, I have never used one and don't intend to but if it is the difference between a pop on the neck when all else has failed and a dog shot for sheep worrying then I know what I would rather have.

I am sorry but not ALL dogs respond to a bag of treats and a pat on the head.
There are some dogs you cannot shout at and there are some dogs who's drive to chase is stronger than any sort of 'bond' you can build with them.

I don't think they should be sold willy nilly to the public, only used through properly trained trainers. Timing is key.

If they are banned, I reckon we will see a lot more dead dogs.
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I agree and I have used one as nothing else worked, only need to use it very rarely as dog soon switches it's attention back to you.
 
I think it has it's place. It's looks quite legit.
Personally I don't have use for one, but if I had a cribber that was out of hand and all other resources had been stressed. Then it's more than likely I would source out something like this.

Horses have way tougher that humans, people need to remember they feel pain on the same scale we do from things like cattle prods, whips etc;
Because they aren't designed for us.
 
What KAo said. I use electric fencing without a second thought too, does that make me cruel? If I had a horse wearing it's teeth down and IF it couldn't be managed another way I would consider all alternatives. But I appreciate some owners may use devices such as this with less thought.
 
They are not cruel!

I have one on my dog as she is an insescent barker and drives everyone around us insane. When she is wearing the collar she doesn't bark. It zapped her a few times and she knows when she is wearing it she musn't bark. Take it off and she will bark - though it does take a few days for her to test it out.

How many of you use electric fencing? This is no different - you set up the fence - horse leans on it and gets zapped - doesn't lean on it again.
 
Evelyn said:
They are not cruel!

I have one on my dog as she is an insescent barker and drives everyone around us insane. When she is wearing the collar she doesn't bark. It zapped her a few times and she knows when she is wearing it she musn't bark. Take it off and she will bark - though it does take a few days for her to test it out.

How many of you use electric fencing? This is no different - you set up the fence - horse leans on it and gets zapped - doesn't lean on it again.
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urm.....maybe try putting round your neck and everytime you speak you get zapped??! How can you say its not cruel, giving something an electric shock...fencing is different, a horse can move away from it, a dog cannot move away from a collar. How about training your dog to not bark rather than whacking that device on it? as above posters have put, in extreme situations, they have their uses but not for barkin imo. Im doing a degree in canine behaviour and if you studied it you would see why not to use it. The long term effect they have on these dogs is horrible.
 
CaveCanem said:
I have no comment on these regarding horses, but re dogs, I have tried one on my wrist a few weeks ago. Felt like lemonade being spilled on my arm. I don't have two layers of hair on my wrist either.

The reason people hate these collars is misuse - slap a collar on - bad dog -ZAP! When that is not how they should be used. If this was the only way they were used, then yeah, ban them.

They should be used like the way you would grab someone - a little old lady or a child - by the sleeve before they step into the path of a lorry.
So - dog is not paying attention, zoning out with a view chase something or other, about to run out in front of a car - apply collar - dog switches attention to handler because it has been distracted by a sensation and looks for guidance - once you have attention recall, praise, reward.

For the record, I have never used one and don't intend to but if it is the difference between a pop on the neck when all else has failed and a dog shot for sheep worrying then I know what I would rather have.

I am sorry but not ALL dogs respond to a bag of treats and a pat on the head.
There are some dogs you cannot shout at and there are some dogs who's drive to chase is stronger than any sort of 'bond' you can build with them.

I don't think they should be sold willy nilly to the public, only used through properly trained trainers. Timing is key.

If they are banned, I reckon we will see a lot more dead dogs.
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I agree with what you are saying, it's just the morons out there that use this as a first point of call instead of the very last resort. I had read an article about a guy in England that used them to make dogs 'sheep safe' and the same with horses it depends on what it is being used for, think they should only be sold by professionals i.e. vets who can make sure that every other avenue has been tried. I know my dog trainer bought one just to see how easy it would be to obtain one, again I would trust her to know when it was the only method left to explore but is dog walking/training a regulated business, some have the qualifications and experience to back them up, some have read a couple of dog behaviour books and think that's it.
Like all things in the wrong hands very dangerous and cruel, but then again so are whips spurs and metal bits again in the wrong hands.
 
CaveCanem said:
I have no comment on these regarding horses, but re dogs, I have tried one on my wrist a few weeks ago. Felt like lemonade being spilled on my arm. I don't have two layers of hair on my wrist either.

The reason people hate these collars is misuse - slap a collar on - bad dog -ZAP! When that is not how they should be used. If this was the only way they were used, then yeah, ban them.

They should be used like the way you would grab someone - a little old lady or a child - by the sleeve before they step into the path of a lorry.
So - dog is not paying attention, zoning out with a view chase something or other, about to run out in front of a car - apply collar - dog switches attention to handler because it has been distracted by a sensation and looks for guidance - once you have attention recall, praise, reward.

For the record, I have never used one and don't intend to but if it is the difference between a pop on the neck when all else has failed and a dog shot for sheep worrying then I know what I would rather have.

I am sorry but not ALL dogs respond to a bag of treats and a pat on the head.
There are some dogs you cannot shout at and there are some dogs who's drive to chase is stronger than any sort of 'bond' you can build with them.

I don't think they should be sold willy nilly to the public, only used through properly trained trainers. Timing is key.

If they are banned, I reckon we will see a lot more dead dogs.
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Do you usually comment on things outside your experience??:D

Well, I have used at least four different models and was probably the first person to import one into Scotland several decades ago. I don't use them now and believe they cannot be banned quick enough. I found it is easier and more effective to use alternative humane methods which have more reliable results. If you train using trauma, it will usually come back on you in some unpredictable form, sometimes years later. That is a scientifically proven fact.

Assuming their use was popularised, as in the USA, you will find a lot of hard dogs (similar to the ones you describe) being bred from so these training methods become the norm. Yes, I am going to be very contraversial and say it would be better for these hard uncontrollable/untrainable dogs if they were culled. I can see no advantage in breeding dogs -- or horses -- with bad temperament. If that is the only way crib biters and wind suckers can be cured, I'd say put them to sleep and breed something better.
 
Naryafluffy said:
I agree with what you are saying, it's just the morons out there that use this as a first point of call instead of the very last resort.
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I don't think a £150+ is ever the first port of call for morons - they tend to beat their dogs instead. In fact I have seen "respected trainers" pick a labrador up by its ears because it moved. Frankly far more cruel than one of these.

I don't see this as any different to electric fencing, if shocks are cruel then why use them extensively for fencing?

I have used an electric collar - to stop my dog nipping down our footpath straight onto the road. I was terrified of her getting run over, so I'd rather give her one shock (which lasts around 6 months, but is wearing off!), than have to scrape her off the road. I was trying to make her think the footpath bites so won't go near it. For what its worth I tried it on my arm at max strength and adjusted it by my own pain level so I knew what effect it would have.

Now maybe I should train her better, but if a cat hot foots it up the path there isn't much I can do to stop her as she goes selectively deaf.

If someone out there that thinks these devices are cruel would like to tell me how to get a terrier to stop chasing things that run away I'd love to hear your pearls of wisdom
 
pixiebee said:
urm.....maybe try putting round your neck and everytime you speak you get zapped??! How can you say its not cruel, giving something an electric shock...fencing is different, a horse can move away from it, a dog cannot move away from a collar. How about training your dog to not bark rather than whacking that device on it? as above posters have put, in extreme situations, they have their uses but not for barkin imo. Im doing a degree in canine behaviour and if you studied it you would see why not to use it. The long term effect they have on these dogs is horrible.
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If you are doing a degree in canine behaviour then take a trip to NZ and see what you can do with this dog!

She can avoid getting zapped by not barking and believe me we have worked exceedingly hard to stop the barking - this has been the last resort and the only thing that has stopped her.

She is a happy extrovert Cocker Spaniel but she is cat obsessive and as my neighbours have several cats who delight in sitting in the dogs view thumbing their noses at the dog what else can you expect - she quivers with excitement at the sight of a cat. I have a cat - she leaves him alone most of the time so long as he doesn't move. She knows she is not allowed to bark, she knows she is not allowed to chase the cat - she just cannot help herself.
 
Naryafluffy said:
I agree with what you are saying, it's just the morons out there that use this as a first point of call instead of the very last resort.
Click to expand...

I don't think a £150+ is ever the first port of call for morons - they tend to beat their dogs instead. In fact I have seen "respected trainers" pick a labrador up by its ears because it moved. Frankly far more cruel than one of these.

I don't see this as any different to electric fencing, if shocks are cruel then why use them extensively for fencing?

I have used an electric collar - to stop my dog nipping down our footpath straight onto the road. I was terrified of her getting run over, so I'd rather give her one shock (which lasts around 6 months, but is wearing off!), than have to scrape her off the road. I was trying to make her think the footpath bites so won't go near it. For what its worth I tried it on my arm at max strength and adjusted it by my own pain level so I knew what effect it would have.

Now maybe I should train her better, but if a cat hot foots it up the path there isn't much I can do to stop her as she goes selectively deaf.

If someone out there that thinks these devices are cruel would like to tell me how to get a terrier to stop chasing things that run away I'd love to hear your pearls of wisdom
 
Kao said:
I think it has it's place. It's looks quite legit.
Personally I don't have use for one, but if I had a cribber that was out of hand and all other resources had been stressed. Then it's more than likely I would source out something like this.
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Why would you want to suppress cribbing behaviour by punishing it when whatever is causing the desire to do it is still there? If the horse is wearing its teeth down through cribbing, it should be possible to arrange for something soft for it to crib on. If even that was not possible, I would simply let it crib.
 
I seem to recall that according the American Humane Society (they are the ones that monitor films, I think?) the horse that played Shadowfax in LOTR was trained using one of these things.
 
Evelyn said:
How many of you use electric fencing? This is no different - you set up the fence - horse leans on it and gets zapped - doesn't lean on it again.
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The horse shocks himself on the fence consistently and with perfect timing, whereas the human decides when and under what circumstances to give the shock via the collar. A horse is (or should be) always able to escape from the shock of the fence, whereas he may not be able to 'escape' from the collar shock. An electric fence is not open to abuse (unless the horse is deliberately chased on to it), whereas the collar is easily abused - even when abuse is not intended, through incompetence of the operator. (Anyone who doesn't believe people can be so incompetent in delivery of punishment should watch the video of the horse being loaded 'using' the cattle prod.)

So, yes, I would say the two situations are very different!
 
Spudlet said:
I seem to recall that according the American Humane Society (they are the ones that monitor films, I think?) the horse that played Shadowfax in LOTR was trained using one of these things.
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I vaguely recall the story but can't remember if the shock collar was being used 1) on a mild, 'non-painful' setting to give the horse a cue remotely, i.e. tell it when to perform some action, rather than 2) training the action by delivering punishers, or 3) simply causing the horse to start running by startling it with an unpleasant 'nip'.

The first is barely acceptable, imo, though a remote vibration might be less unpleasant than an electric shock, however mild, and just as effective as a cue/signal. The second is a crazy, inefficient way to create or shape a behaviour because a punisher can only tell a horse what not to do (i.e. what it is currently doing is wrong) and not what it should do. I'd be surprised and dismayed if the AHS allowed shocks to be used this way. The third is a bit dodgy, but not really much different from giving a horse a sharp enough slap or whack to get it to run away.
 
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Dry Rot said:
Do you usually comment on things outside your experience??:D

Well, I have used at least four different models and was probably the first person to import one into Scotland several decades ago. I don't use them now and believe they cannot be banned quick enough. I found it is easier and more effective to use alternative humane methods which have more reliable results. If you train using trauma, it will usually come back on you in some unpredictable form, sometimes years later. That is a scientifically proven fact.

Assuming their use was popularised, as in the USA, you will find a lot of hard dogs (similar to the ones you describe) being bred from so these training methods become the norm. Yes, I am going to be very contraversial and say it would be better for these hard uncontrollable/untrainable dogs if they were culled. I can see no advantage in breeding dogs -- or horses -- with bad temperament. If that is the only way crib biters and wind suckers can be cured, I'd say put them to sleep and breed something better.
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Good for you. Which models did you use?
What, trying one on myself is not experience? A tiny little fizzle. Maybe you turned them up to nine and gave them big jolts as a *correction* but as I say, that's not how they are properly used.
If I need one one day, I will use one.
I am no fluffy bunny but I don't believe in putting to sleep a dog which has a high prey drive but is handler sensitive. I don't call that bad temperament or uncontrollable. I do believe out and out aggressive or painfully shy dogs should be culled or removed from breeding programmes.
I do NOT believe they should be used on any dog for any problem.

Where's the science? Proven facts, not anedotal, emotive tosh like the recent report where e-collar users are more likely to be child abusers :rolleyes: I like to educate myself in these things which are so outside my experience.

Agree though, a lot of the bark collars are crap.
 
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Cribbing is a stress reaction or can be caused by ulcers, to give a horse an electric shock when exhibiting these "bad habits" is mental cruelty. If it did stop the cribbing surely the horse would simply find another way to release its stress?
 
CaveCanem said:
I have no comment on these regarding horses, but re dogs, I have tried one on my wrist a few weeks ago. Felt like lemonade being spilled on my arm. I don't have two layers of hair on my wrist either.

The reason people hate these collars is misuse - slap a collar on - bad dog -ZAP! When that is not how they should be used. If this was the only way they were used, then yeah, ban them.
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I agree with you 100% and would be more if you could have more than 100%. Anyway if it wasn't for an electric collar, my lab would probably have only lived to 3 years old. She's now going to be 15 in September. Anyway despite 5-6ft perimeter fencing on the property, she used to trot up to it and over she went. There was nothing we could do to keep her in other than erecting an 8ft fence or chaining her up. We purchased and had fitted an electric boundary where the dog wears the collar and with a week of training knows exactly how it works. The most brilliant thing designed for the escaping dog owner. I really hope these haven't also been banned in Wales as I for one, would certainly still be using it. I also think the electric reprimand training collars in the right hands have a place. I do not think everyone or anyone should be able to buy one but I would have no qualms with one being in the hands of a professional.
 
that collar is sick...

in regards to use on dogs, i never would, but we've been talking to our dog trainer about using a collar that squirts your dog with water as our pup has hit the adolescent stage and is conveniently deaf to recall. Recently he would not come back and stood waiting for a woman and her dog to come through our horses fields. He wouldn't have done anything but the woman stared him down (stupid thing to do to any dog!) and he's a rottweiler so we don't want him getting a bad name for himself.
so we are looking into it so when we call him and he ignores us he'll get a squirt and come back.
 
fburton said:
Why would you want to suppress cribbing behaviour by punishing it when whatever is causing the desire to do it is still there? If the horse is wearing its teeth down through cribbing, it should be possible to arrange for something soft for it to crib on. If even that was not possible, I would simply let it crib.
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100% Agree with this. The horse is cribbing for a reason. Be it ulcers, stress, anxiety... And cribs to cope. I think taking a horses coping mechanism away is cruel.
Yes it is annoying and *may* bring on colic, I would let it crib for it's sanity.
I have known many bad cribbers and the only thing physically that you could see were the over developed muscles on the neck. Not one single colic.
And I never saw one other horse who copied either, despite being in full view of a cribber for many years...
 
fburton said:
The horse shocks himself on the fence consistently and with perfect timing, whereas the human decides when and under what circumstances to give the shock via the collar. A horse is (or should be) always able to escape from the shock of the fence, whereas he may not be able to 'escape' from the collar shock. An electric fence is not open to abuse (unless the horse is deliberately chased on to it), whereas the collar is easily abused - even when abuse is not intended, through incompetence of the operator. (Anyone who doesn't believe people can be so incompetent in delivery of punishment should watch the video of the horse being loaded 'using' the cattle prod.)

So, yes, I would say the two situations are very different!
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This collar isn't remote controlled, it zaps the horse when the muscle tense to suck in wind, the dog collar with the remote control would be open to abuse, however I do know that you can get invisible electric fencing where the dog wears the collar and if it steps over the boundary it is automatically zapped, however then you hear the stories of people not turning off the collar and putting the dog in the car and taking it over the boundary


Jen_Cots said:
I don't think a £150+ is ever the first port of call for morons - they tend to beat their dogs instead. In fact I have seen "respected trainers" pick a labrador up by its ears because it moved. Frankly far more cruel than one of these.

I don't see this as any different to electric fencing, if shocks are cruel then why use them extensively for fencing?

I have used an electric collar - to stop my dog nipping down our footpath straight onto the road. I was terrified of her getting run over, so I'd rather give her one shock (which lasts around 6 months, but is wearing off!), than have to scrape her off the road. I was trying to make her think the footpath bites so won't go near it. For what its worth I tried it on my arm at max strength and adjusted it by my own pain level so I knew what effect it would have.

Now maybe I should train her better, but if a cat hot foots it up the path there isn't much I can do to stop her as she goes selectively deaf.

If someone out there that thinks these devices are cruel would like to tell me how to get a terrier to stop chasing things that run away I'd love to hear your pearls of wisdom
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The horse collar costs £150, the dog collars are around £20, with the invisible electric fencing ones being a bit more expensive.
Agree with you that you are unlikely to train the terrier type not to chase cats etc and if your garden goes onto a busy road.
As I said in my original post, responsible dog owners would use it responsibly if and when it was required, it's the irresponsible dogs owners that given them bad names.
This post was originally about the Horse Collar for crib biting/wind sucking, we had one that wind sucked and we tried the miracle collar to no effect, did nail a towel over the door and that actually cut down on it as he didn't like the sensation, and we're now on rubber, don't have the issues that this ebay item is talking about where the teeth have been worn to the gums.
 
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