Horse gets artificial leg!! WTF was they thinking?

SusieT said:
This horse lay down for days on end. It had to be supported in a sling. There is no adequate pain relief for a wound on a stump that has to have a prosthetic leg back on it. Every couple of months (at the most) it had more severe problems.
Regarding 'we have to keep pushing'. No, actually we don't. We have a responsibility to say that enough is enough. A horse doesn't understand it can't gallop anymore, can't jump without damaging its leg. A human prosthetic wearer does. A human prosthetic wearer takes it off at night, so thats a good rest. You cannot draw parallels.
There are studies on these horses-the maximum survival was 3 years. Most lived 9months of pain and suffering. How is that acceptable?

Horses don't cry out in pain, doesn't mean they arent in it.
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Says it all for me.
 
amandap said:
Is it hypocrisy though? One could be to give a decent quality of life V death and the other is experimenting with no possible benefit for the animal involved.
One could go very wrong but the other is a non starter as far as the animal is concerned.
Then there is the question of 'the greater good' or medical advance as opposed to a 'cosmetic' safety/advance.
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I am talking about testing medicine for humans on animals, not cosmetics.
The animal lives in comfortable surroundings, gets fed and watered, just not allowed to live naturally and undergoing a lot of medical procedures. A bit like the horse.
I don't see much benefit for the horses involved fitted with prosthetic limbs either and the vast majority seem to be PTS anyway. Again, I do not see any benefit, just a life prolonged in an unnatural and potentially very painful way.
 
CaveCanem said:
I am talking about testing medicine for humans on animals, not cosmetics.
The animal lives in comfortable surroundings, gets fed and watered, just not allowed to live naturally and undergoing a lot of medical procedures. A bit like the horse.
I don't see much benefit for the horses involved fitted with prosthetic limbs either and the vast majority seem to be PTS anyway. Again, I do not see any benefit, just a life prolonged in an unnatural and potentially very painful way.
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Even that is a very difficult question.

Surely that same applies to cats and dogs. I'm not disagreeing with you btw just using your posts as a sounding board. :)
I have mixed feelings on all these issues.

ps. I used the word cosmetic not meaning cosmetics specifically but cosmetic applications ie. the look of something as opposed to the function.
 
Cats don't live naturally?!!! :p

My dogs live mostly outside and eat raw meat and bones if they can tolerate it and are total stinkers :p but I am probably seen as a cruel evil person, if they have any medical issues which severely affect their mobility and ability to run, jump and get around the all the things they live to do, we PTS.
They are large, weighbearing dogs and they do not understand why they cannot do the things they used to do - they just feel pain and confusion.
 
My Riding insructor is an incredible lady. She's an amputee from below the knee. She rides better most people I know and looking at her you'd never know. She is however often in immense pain with it and has several times been told she'll never walk, let alone ride again. The strain it's placing her good leg under is huge, and the joints on that are now deteriorating. As well as back pain due to her over compensating for the leg. She likely won't have the use of it in another five years as it will have to be amputated higher up. She often uses cructches to relieve the weight bearing and teaches sat on a chair.

Horse's put up with a lot of pain, without ever letting on. They're flight animals after all, and predators would pick up on any weakness and pick out that horse as weak and an easy catch. I understand that science has to move forward, but I'd like to think not in this way. As someboody else said, horse's live in the present, they don't think about tomorrow or how their current actions and experiences will shape next week.

I'm a firm believer in quality not quantity of life. In my eyes this horse will be in pain. Even if it's not showing it. And the amount of strain being put on the diagnol fore leg and other hind leg will be immense. The horse can't sit down or remove the leg for a while either. Prothestic Limbs chafe and cause pain that way too. It cannot be removed to give the limb a rest, as a human would.

I would never put my horses through such a procedure. To me it seems incredibly selfish of the humans involved to prolong the suffering. That horse cannot live a normal "Horse" life. It can't be turned out with friends to buck and play in the field for fear of injury.

I feel that just because we may have the ability to cure, it doesn't mean we should at all cost. The horse doesn't understand, that it maybe leading the way in equine prothestics. It just understands that it's in pain and that it can't live normally.
 
I wonder if GinaGeo's instructors experience is representative of amputees? How do para olympians cope?

The only person I've known with a false leg was an old lady and she had no pain from it apart from occasional rubs of the stump if she didn't pad enough..
 
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amandap said:
I wonder if GinaGeo's instructors experience is representative of amputees?
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That completely depends on the nature of the original injury, the age and general health of the person and many other factors.

The thing is, humans can say how they feel and learn to cope if they have problems, like GG's instructor. They can use their understanding of the situation and communication skills to seek the right help and adapt their lives accordingly.

A horse simply can't do those things, so surely the situation's not comparable?
 
FionaM12 said:
That completely depends on the nature of the original injury, the age and general health of the person and many other factors.

The thing is, humans can say how they feel and learn to cope if they have problems, like GG's instructor. They can use their understanding of the situation and communication skills to seek the right help and adapt their lives accordingly.

A horse simply can't do those things, so surely the situation's not comparable?
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I do agree to a large extent and will add that horses don't have a choice either. That applies to everything we do to them. However, what have we got to go by in anything medical where pain is involved? We can only observe as best we can and guess going on human experience.
 
CaveCanem said:
So do all these people in favour of experimenting for the good of science and treatment agree with testing medication on ickle fluffy bunnies? And poor cutesie monkeys?
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I certainly do yes. And lovely beagles too for that matter.

However, this wasn't done in the name of science. I doubt anything useful has been learnt from it at all. All that was achieved was to make a poor horse miserable for a prolonged period. Genuine animal experimentation has to receive ethics committee approval and this most certainly would not have done so. This was just some people playing God/failing to be able to let go/whatever else. Totally unacceptable IMHO and I hope the vet, at the very least, is thoroughly ashamed of the calls they made!

I am fine with animal testing but I do expect the people conducting it to at least plan to learn something useful! Data is what data is but these things should at least be planned to try and ensure something good comes of it. Going off half cock in a panic doesn't help anyone and is never scientific.
 
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Hmm, I don't agree with this situation. However, you need to look at the bigger picture than just a horse with a prosthetic leg. This horse did suffer, and that is not right, but now, have lessons been learnt? I think so. I also agree with the point made about the vet who was at the forefront of this, she shouldn't have been, it doesn't matter hugely now, as the outcome would have been similar. Perhaps the horse may have lived longer/had less complications, but it still would eventually, most likely die from complications to do with the leg. You need to look at how new prosthetics are, the people who came up with the idea barely know what they are doing, let alone anyone else. It needs far more advancement before it can possibly work, but you don't get to that stage without what is going on now.

Ethical responsibility is prevalent within science because of the research that has been done, that is perhaps not so 'humane' or 'right'. You cannot advance, in any way, without research, which has and will always have ethical questions. It is human nature to 'make better', and that applies not only to science, but to ethics as well.

Prosthetic development on large animals is going to be a slow one, if it ever really surfaces at all. However, if you told someone 100 years ago that you could put wheels on a dog and let it live, they would have laughed in your face, or if you could give a man metal legs and he could run faster than any man with normal legs, the list goes on. I don't however think it should be given up on, or written off.
 
The Nazi's did awful experiments on human children in the name of science-some of it was qutie useful. Was that ethical?
 
I have only read the first few posts. IMHO totally wrong. Equines are flight animals. SOME dogs adapt really well, they are not flight animnals.

Some horses might appear to cope, but mentally, I doubt it!

Humans find difficulty in adapting and they have complete understanding of what is going on!
 
jesstickle said:
I certainly do yes. And lovely beagles too for that matter.

However, this wasn't done in the name of science. I doubt anything useful has been learnt from it at all. All that was achieved was to make a poor horse miserable for a prolonged period. Genuine animal experimentation has to receive ethics committee approval and this most certainly would not have done so. This was just some people playing God/failing to be able to let go/whatever else. Totally unacceptable IMHO and I hope the vet, at the very least, is thoroughly ashamed of the calls they made!

I am fine with animal testing but I do expect the people conducting it to at least plan to learn something useful! Data is what data is but these things should at least be planned to try and ensure something good comes of it. Going off half cock in a panic doesn't help anyone and is never scientific.
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**applauds**
 
vickyb said:
I don't think it's right at all, but, wasn't there a valuable race stallion many years ago that broke a leg, (A hind one as far as I can recall) and they fitted it with a prosthetic limb and it carried on its stallion duties? Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine call remember its name?
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I think the horse you might be thinking of was Helios by Hyperion who was sold from the UK to Australia & smashed a pastern at Flemington. I quote from The Horseman's Year of 1954:
"....after months of treatment he recovered sufficiently to enable a special steel bar to be fitted to the wall of the injured hoof. Contractions of the ligaments have caused the hoof to be drawn upwards, & the steel bar, taking place of the sole of the hoof, makes contact with the ground.
In spite of his disability Helios performs his natural functions with ease.....& although he has to be kept below normal stallion condition, the injury worries him little".
There is a gut wrenching photograph which I will post if someone will tell me how.
This was presumably done in the1940s as Helios was foaled in 1937, his last foals are registered in 1958 so he must have managed for at least twelve years. He didn't lose the leg, but it seems a drastic & for the horse an initially painful solution. He was a great stallion in Australia, but at the time of the surgery they would hardly have known that.
 
DragonSlayer said:
We won't ever stop the progress of science and technology. We won't ever stop humans feeling they can make a difference. After all, do we not do the best by our animals? The majority of us anyway....with over 6 billion people on this planet (probably many more now TBH...) there will be someone who thinks that can do the best by their animals better than us. Not everyone agrees with 'The Bullet' everytime but to someone, they are doing the best by their beloved animal.

We are going to have to deal with it I'm afraid. At some point, someone WILL create a false limb for a horse which will do the job like a proper leg.
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Totally agree with this. Prior to humans being fitted with prosthetic limbs, I'm sure it was thought impossible. I'm also certain that there were several failed attempts before a sucessful one was done. After a success there can only be progress. I don't believe the horse in this situation was a failure. I believe it was a success - if only for a short time. Things will have been learned and obviously improvements need to be made.
It's not something I would put a horse of mine through under any circumstances - but there are owners out there that would and if that is their choice, then their decision should be accepted, even if it does sit uncomfortably with the majority.
Veterinary science cannot progress without experimentation. Millions of animals are used in UK laboratories every day for human medicinal progress, never mind veterinary progress. Just because the story behind this horse's artificial limb was made public it doesn't mean similar things aren't going on behind closed doors to make medicine better for humans.
 
There is a gut wrenching photograph which I will post if someone will tell me how.
This was presumably done in the1940s as Helios was foaled in 1937, his last foals are registered in 1958 so he must have managed for at least twelve years. He didn't lose the leg, but it seems a drastic & for the horse an initially painful solution.
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Helios.jpg


Is this the photo?

This links to the 'how to post a photo' instructions. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=426986
 
I have spent the last 18 months looking after amputee patients (most of them young and fit) and I can categorically say I would never ever even consider putting one of mine through this.

It takes months and sometimes years for a stump to be modeled and fit enough to bear even the weight of a human, I cannot imagine the pressure of a horses weight on it.

No horse of mine will hobble round for any length of time like that in order for me to keep it alive.

Humans are different - you can explain to a human that they need to rest, they need to stay in a chair, that things will get better and there's a reason for doing this. You can't to a horse. I cannot imagine how a horse with a prosthetic leg would even be able to stand up properly. And yes phantom pains are horrendous!

Utterly utterly wrong and I am all for medicine advancing through trying new things!!
 
minigal said:
I have spent the last 18 months looking after amputee patients (most of them young and fit) and I can categorically say I would never ever even consider putting one of mine through this.

It takes months and sometimes years for a stump to be modeled and fit enough to bear even the weight of a human, I cannot imagine the pressure of a horses weight on it.

No horse of mine will hobble round for any length of time like that in order for me to keep it alive.

Humans are different - you can explain to a human that they need to rest, they need to stay in a chair, that things will get better and there's a reason for doing this. You can't to a horse. I cannot imagine how a horse with a prosthetic leg would even be able to stand up properly. And yes phantom pains are horrendous!

Utterly utterly wrong and I am all for medicine advancing through trying new things!!
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Here here this is what I was trying to say earlier....Phantom pains are horrific in humans when a limb is lost, we are human and we have CHOICE.The animals have no choice and we make the decision in their best interest. I would not put my horses through this. An owner who cannot make that final decision of PTS and I would not allow any of mine to be experimented on.
I dont think this was in the horses best interest. PTS would be the best option.
 
rhino said:
Also makes you wonder how many other horses could have been saved/helped with the money - although am guessing the overload of publicity would have brought in plenty of donations :cool:
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This was my thought too, although I think it did say that some of the treatment/prosthesis was donated by the practitioner.

The other video of the horse missing a foreleg was just horrible and I couldn't watch very much.

Was this the same sanctuary that kept a horse alive whose hoof had come off?
 
Having lost my leg, I agree with the people that have said how hard it is and we can understand what has happened to us and have to try and cope with life. The pains are horrid not sure if an animal would get the same but I would not wish them on anything. Quality of life is what counts and there are days that I feel my quality of life is not that good as things are now so hard for me to carry out a day to day life,so for a horse it would be even harder, I have the choice of when mine gets so painfull I can take it off and rest but the horse does not have the same choice.
 
ebonyallen said:
Having lost my leg, I agree with the people that have said how hard it is and we can understand what has happened to us and have to try and cope with life. The pains are horrid not sure if an animal would get the same but I would not wish them on anything. Quality of life is what counts and there are days that I feel my quality of life is not that good as things are now so hard for me to carry out a day to day life,so for a horse it would be even harder, I have the choice of when mine gets so painfull I can take it off and rest but the horse does not have the same choice.
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I was wondering when someone who had physically/ emotionally been through this would come on. But I sometimes dont think other non amputee people realise how brutal and the long hard slog humans go through to get to any stage of sitting/standing/walking etc and even considering an artificial limb/stump management and there are so many issues to get it right...so absolutely agree we have choice a big old heavy beasty with 4 sticky legs does not. Wouldnt understand a general anaesthetic etc etc panic/stress etc etc (which humans would understand and consent to)I find it very cruel to subject a big beautiful beast to this kind of surgery. The vet should have said NO. This has to be extreme surgery for it to have posted anyway. Perhaps someone could ask would your vet perform this for your horse if required? I hope not.
 
I haven't read all the responses but thought I would add at uni I did an assignment on equine amputees. The research was harrowing and IMO I do not think that morally it is right at all. The effects on the remaining limb are massive and most amputees tend to end up having some sort of catastrophic breakdown in the supporting limb. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be.
 
without making a judgement over whether it is right or wrong to have done the procedure in this case ( I have mixed feeling personally) I wonder if making comparisons to human equivelant is maybe not directly relevant :confused:.

someone said we cant explain the anaesthesia / duration of pain / restrictions .......... well if we took that line we would not put our horses through colic surgery and would not put them through prolonged box rest when they have painful tendon tears or any fractures... or try to repair almost any injury / illness,

we have applauded on here people who have nursed horses through horrific wounds taking months and months to heal and probably causing pain. How can we decide that some wounds / injuries can be treated and others not and where is the line in the sand drawn :confused:


in that above circumstances when we carry on then we provide analgesia ........ as we do with arthritic horses who may be reluctant to trot / canter or get extra stiff if they do so . How much discomfort equates pts ..... variable depending on the horse and the perceptions of the human ;).




a horse has four legs and can stand for considerable periods on three of them .... humans only have two and most of us struggle to take one off the floor for more than a few seconds.;) We are upright and balance is more fragile than the leg at each corner horse. Maybe there is proportionately less pressure on the prosthesis than with a human :confused:

the human leg is much bulkier with more muscle and soft tissue (along with mutitude of nerve endings) than a horses lower leg so maybe we cannot make assumptions about the level of pain because of what humans experience,

human experiences of amputation and prosthetics vary hugely ... some people might never adapt whereas some amputees become supreme athletes.
 
Just watch the video of the horse with only one front leg. It is quite frankly cruel to not PTS when a life becomes endless suffering with no improvement possible.
 
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