Horse has EXTREME ‘herding’ problem?

[Peglo]

The dominance thing with horses is interesting. I get what stangs is saying. It's not a strict pecking order, but more amorphous and contextual. Mark Rashid has a lot to say about this stuff, which fits in with my observations. In a situation where resources like space, food, water are somewhat finite (most domestic set-ups), you will have horses who are more aggressive about guarding those resources than others. However, that might not be the same individual who the other horses follow when they move from one place to another. The most aggressive horse isn't necessarily the 'leader.' Nor are the relationships totally linear. Horse A can push horse B around, B can push C, but sometimes C can push A.

Yes I noticed this. TB is top dog but she also ‘follows’ old haffie. She can’t cope if she’s taken away, even with the other ponies there. Old peggy has to go first too. Peggy has always been happily independent and confident going out by herself. I’ve always wondered if that’s why everyone follows her.

 

[stangs]

That’s weird. Sitting and watching my stable herd of 7 mares and geldings I’d have said my hunter was definitely top horse. No one drank from the trough while she did, she went to the trough and they all followed. They queued behind her. She moved them away from me while I was poo picking. Surely that is dominance? I doubt herds are run as a democracy.

I’m pretty sure my horses haven’t read the research that disputes hierarchy
Finn is top dog . No one messes with him . He eats first / he drinks first / he comes in first . Because he chooses too . One look from him and the others stand well back and patiently wait their turn .

In your cases, you don't have a dominant or top horse - you have a horse who's more of a resource guarder than the others. Over time, they would have reinforced "stay away when I'm drinking" through threatening body language, kicking out, biting, etc. None of the other horses have the same urge so they don't fight it. Or if they do, they fight and whoever 'loses' now knows to wait, but may do the same to another horse.

Does that mean that that horse is the same horse others take confidence from, say if a tree falls in the paddock and they want to investigate? Or that that same horse is the one that guides the others when exploring unknown territory? No.

Humans have a bad habit of associating aggression with dominance in animals (setting a very dangerous precedent for humans 'being dominant' during training, but that's a separate conversation). The original research on there being dominance in horses was done by restricting the number of hay piles the horses had access to, and claiming that the one that eventually got access was 'the dominant one'. Research previously had to resort to such tactics since, without them, free-living horses didn't show enough 'dominance'!

Feral horses rarely fight within the band. They don't care about who's boss; they care about group cohesion. There may be one mare who's often followed if she choses to change the direction of the band's movement, but this position of being 'lead horse'/'guide' is fluid. Others may become that leader depending on the needs of the band. (So not always a democracy, but not a dictatorship either). Nor is there is linear scale of boss --> the lowest of the low; horses have multiple different relationships with others, based on many factors.

In other words, no horse is naturally 'dominant'.

'Dominance' (in the aggression sense) in domestic horses is the result of resource guarding, separation anxiety, general stress and pain, etc. We created it through poor management techniques, which then become learned behaviour that carries on through their lives, even if the management gets better. It's not natural.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Stangs is right, latest research shows that relationships between horses are not linear nor static, most of what we see is down to limited resources and repeatedly removing and then returning horses to the herd. I recommend Lucy Rees latest book for an accessible read.

 

[Xmasha]

In your cases, you don't have a dominant or top horse - you have a horse who's more of a resource guarder than the others. Over time, they would have reinforced "stay away when I'm drinking" through threatening body language, kicking out, biting, etc. None of the other horses have the same urge so they don't fight it. Or if they do, they fight and whoever 'loses' now knows to wait, but may do the same to another horse.

Does that mean that that horse is the same horse others take confidence from, say if a tree falls in the paddock and they want to investigate? Or that that same horse is the one that guides the others when exploring unknown territory? No.

Humans have a bad habit of associating aggression with dominance in animals (setting a very dangerous precedent for humans 'being dominant' during training, but that's a separate conversation). The original research on there being dominance in horses was done by restricting the number of hay piles the horses had access to, and claiming that the one that eventually got access was 'the dominant one'. Research previously had to resort to such tactics since, without them, free-living horses didn't show enough 'dominance'!

Feral horses rarely fight within the band. They don't care about who's boss; they care about group cohesion. There may be one mare who's often followed if she choses to change the direction of the band's movement, but this position of being 'lead horse'/'guide' is fluid. Others may become that leader depending on the needs of the band. (So not always a democracy, but not a dictatorship either). Nor is there is linear scale of boss --> the lowest of the low; horses have multiple different relationships with others, based on many factors.

In other words, no horse is naturally 'dominant'.

'Dominance' (in the aggression sense) in domestic horses is the result of resource guarding, separation anxiety, general stress and pain, etc. We created it through poor management techniques, which then become learned behaviour that carries on through their lives, even if the management gets better. It's not natural.

nope , we will have to agree to disagree on this one . Finn is absolutely the one who leads the others past scary obstacles when out and about . No fighting/kicking or bitting as they all accept the way their herd works.

Perhaps the word dominance should be replaced with the word respected . As there are no acts of agression . As that isn’t needed , doesn’t mean that there isn’t a leader though. A good leader will manage through respect as opposed to fear

 

[HashRouge]

OP I would definitely separate the horses. Surely it is better for your mare to be on her own (but with company over the fence) than to be constantly herded around the field. I certainly wouldn't be happy with this happening to my 29 year old - she has a nice field companion who she is always grazing quietly with. It cannot be good for an elderly horse to be herded constantly.

 

[Equidarby]

I’m just going to add something to my post (I’m the OP) as after having a discussion With a few people - in my case midges could be the issue. The herding is the worst at dawn and dusk and heightens in spring (don’t really notice it in winter to be honest) the mare that herds gets particularly annoyed at flies and midges.
I wonder whether she is doing it to stop the midges? With the added bonus of her face in my mares tail.

my old mare isn’t the brightest (she will wait at a gate to the wrong field for example!)
The younger mare is not malicious or aggressive to her when herding, just literally walking round and round.

i wonder if midges could be the problem?

 

[Equidarby]

I’m just going to add something to my post (I’m the OP) as after having a discussion With a few people - in my case midges could be the issue. The herding is the worst at dawn and dusk and heightens in spring (don’t really notice it in winter to be honest) the mare that herds gets particularly annoyed at flies and midges.
I wonder whether she is doing it to stop the midges? With the added bonus of her face in my mares tail.

my old mare isn’t the brightest (she will wait at a gate to the wrong field for example!)
The younger mare is not malicious or aggressive to her when herding, just literally walking round and round.

i wonder if midges could be the problem?

just too ad to this, they have been split up now, and watching the camera my old mare is still grazing and the young mare grazes then walks around repeatedly!

 

[Equidarby]

OP I would definitely separate the horses. Surely it is better for your mare to be on her own (but with company over the fence) than to be constantly herded around the field. I certainly wouldn't be happy with this happening to my 29 year old - she has a nice field companion who she is always grazing quietly with. It cannot be good for an elderly horse to be herded constantly.

yes they have now been separated

 

[Clodagh]

Interesting about no one in charge. I don’t actually have horses now so will probably not research further but will take your word for it. Thank you for in depth reply.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Interesting about no one in charge. I don’t actually have horses now so will probably not research further but will take your word for it. Thank you for in depth reply.
Surely though someone must make the decisions in the wild as regards moving to better grazing/ going to the river?
Mine were out together for 6 months with no comings or goings on a big acreage with a river and a trough, so as natural as could be.

i will happily send you the book I mentioned-it really is more fascinating than the idea of a linear hierarchy although the behaviour course I attended back in 2008 already taught that the dominance idea was out of date.

 

[Clodagh]

i will happily send you the book I mentioned-it really is more fascinating than the idea of a linear hierarchy although the behaviour course I attended back in 2008 already taught that the dominance idea was out of dare.

I’ve got a million books here awaiting reading. Smallest keeps trying to improve my mind! ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Stangs is right, latest research shows that relationships between horses are not linear nor static, most of what we see is down to limited resources and repeatedly removing and then returning horses to the herd. I recommend Lucy Rees latest book for an accessible read.

Ours were NOT guarding resources such as food/water. The younger one was 'guarding' her best friend. The older one just wasn't going to be told what to do by a whipper-snapper!

We used to have a 14.3 coloured cob, former broodmare who was very independent, happy to be on her own in the field/stable/hacking. She kept everybody else (all bigger than her) in line. She took the sheep that we had at the time under her wing and ensured that they were completely unmolested by any horse who might feel like chivvying them round.
Mind you, I once watched a sheep headbutt the young cob in a dispute over a blade of grass(?), long after the coloured cob's demise. The young cob just stood there shaking her head, possibly in amazement - I certainly was amazed!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

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