Horse licking/chewing after lunge session

Birker2020

Birker2020

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At the last yard I was at they had a very small indoor school which was about 20m in diameter. It was great for doing ground work in and I did quite a lot with my horse at one time. I did join up work and he picked it up very quickly. When he went to a Monty Roberts demo as a demo horse for a loading problem, Monty was amazed how quickly he joined up with his man in the roundpen and asked if I had done this type of work with him before. He's always acted the same way, ear on the handler, slowing down of pace, licking and chewing before joining up.

The last time few times I lunged him and made him halt in order to change the rein I noticed he was licking and chewing. I always keep my sessions brief, 20 mins max or 30 mins if trot poles are involved and always work on a really long rein to avoid the problems of tight circles with very little canter work involved. The horse moves freely, swings through his back, his tail is long and relaxed and he is allowed to stretch (I don't use any gadgets just a dually and lunge line)

I took this licking and chewing at the time to mean many things, submission, relaxation, understanding of what was required of him, affection, trust, etc and assumed it was just an extension of join up. However I recently read that it can also mean that the horse has visbily relaxed because he has had the 'pressure' taken off him and this is referred to in a human context as 'stress management'.

Does anyone else agree with this theory? Does anyone elses horse do this on the lunge?
 
Long before MR "invented" join up I was breaking a fair amount and knew that when they started to lick, chew, drop their frame and visibly relax on the lunge that was when they were ready for the next stage of the process, MR has really only put into words what old school people would know from experience, yes mine do still do it when I lunge if they are working properly and I still use the signs when working with youngsters on the lunge.
 
Yes, I think "stress management" is probably the main reason for licking and chewing. But I would consider it in context. "Stress" isn't necessarily an awful thing to be avoided. E.g. my gelding finds it mildly stressful if he can't immediately figure out during ground work what it is I want of him. He tries to please, but doesn't immediately get it right. I think that's frustrating/stressful to him. Once he gets it, he relaxes and licks/chews sometimes. I do think this relaxation/stress management moment does often go together with a learning experience - aha, the trailer isn't going to eat me after all, that tarpaulin there isn't that dangerous - and often with a release of pressure. But that release can also be the horse letting go, physically or mentally, not just the human taking off some sort of outside pressure.

I'd always consider licking/chewing in the bigger context. I don't think it always guarantees a positive thing/learning success. You could, for example, interrupt a very stressful session where the horse isn't getting it at all and walk away for a moment, given the horse a breather. He might lick and chew, because the pressure is off. But that doesn't mean he has learned. On the other hand, if the horse manages to relax and rest closer to some scary object than previously, then I'd say the fact that he manages to mentally let go close to the object means there's progress and learning happening.
 
supsup said:
Yes, I think "stress management" is probably the main reason for licking and chewing. But I would consider it in context. "Stress" isn't necessarily an awful thing to be avoided. E.g. my gelding finds it mildly stressful if he can't immediately figure out during ground work what it is I want of him. He tries to please, but doesn't immediately get it right. I think that's frustrating/stressful to him. Once he gets it, he relaxes and licks/chews sometimes. I do think this relaxation/stress management moment does often go together with a learning experience - aha, the trailer isn't going to eat me after all, that tarpaulin there isn't that dangerous - and often with a release of pressure. But that release can also be the horse letting go, physically or mentally, not just the human taking off some sort of outside pressure.

I'd always consider licking/chewing in the bigger context. I don't think it always guarantees a positive thing/learning success. You could, for example, interrupt a very stressful session where the horse isn't getting it at all and walk away for a moment, given the horse a breather. He might lick and chew, because the pressure is off. But that doesn't mean he has learned. On the other hand, if the horse manages to relax and rest closer to some scary object than previously, then I'd say the fact that he manages to mentally let go close to the object means there's progress and learning happening.
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I don't know about the NH side but from observing my cob, I think this is an excellent post :)
With her, it's the letting go element that interests me, because when she is stressed or worried by a question she almost holds her breath and gets all tight lipped. It's a sign that she's relaxed herself enough to be able to think, if I can see her lick and chew. but you're dead right about context.
 
Interested to hear this. I've always been quite confused about doing lunging with a horse that's done join up - in fact I asked both MR and KM about this but did not really have a response. When you do join the licking and chewing is often ones of the cues to taking the pressure off, so if you do join up and then on another occasion lunge the same horse - but this time when it makes the same movements you just ignore them because you're lunging and your purpose is different - surely that is confusing for the horse??

I'm not particularly a join up fan, but personally I wouldn't do both for this reason. I'm really interested to hear what others think.
 
Hetsmum said:
Licking and chewing is a submissive behaviour
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Do you have a reference for this? Somewhere on the EBTA website perhaps?

applecart14 said:
... However I recently read that it can also mean that the horse has visbily relaxed because he has had the 'pressure' taken off him and this is referred to in a human context as 'stress management'.

Does anyone else agree with this theory?
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Back in 1996/7, I suggested an explanation based on saliva flow in a dry mouth occurring when autonomic influences swing back from sympathetic ("adrenalin"/stressed) to parasympathetic (relaxed). Since then I have seen countless examples of "licking and chewing" that are consistent with pressure coming off and the saliva-flow theory, and some where the horse got a fright from something and started licking and chewing shortly after.
 
fburton said:
Do you have a reference for this? Somewhere on the EBTA website perhaps?


Back in 1996/7, I suggested an explanation based on saliva flow in a dry mouth occurring when autonomic influences swing back from sympathetic ("adrenalin"/stressed) to parasympathetic (relaxed). Since then I have seen countless examples of "licking and chewing" that are consistent with pressure coming off and the saliva-flow theory, and some where the horse got a fright from something and started licking and chewing shortly after.
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I was also taught it was purely a physiological response to stress. Another misappropriated response from the NH crowd!
 
pennyturner said:
Yes - young horses greet older ones with licking and chewing... even if they're best mates and delighted to see each other - it's horsey good manners.
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I think fburton will be able to give some good explanations of this but just in case he/she doesn't see it - the mouthing/lip smacking that you often see in foals or youngsters is completely different to the destressing licking and chewing movement of a horse like we see in join-up.
 
my horse does it but i wonder if its because he's anticipating a treat!

he only gets treated when he's good, and usually when I lunge he will get a mint or a fibre plus nugget when i switch reins!
 
Morgan123 said:
I think fburton will be able to give some good explanations of this but just in case he/she doesn't see it - the mouthing/lip smacking that you often see in foals or youngsters is completely different to the destressing licking and chewing movement of a horse like we see in join-up.
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Well, yes, the mouth clapping you often see in foals when they get close to an adult that isn't their dam (pictured here, for example: http://thinklikeahorse.org/images/foal clacking.JPG) is quite different. It is commonly interpreted as a submissive or appeasing gesture - "Don't hurt me, I'm only little".

The "licking and chewing" seen in Join Up or after a horse is stressed is quite different in appearance and involves actual licking and chewing movements of the mouth, not just opening and closing.
 
Kezzabell2 said:
my horse does it but i wonder if its because he's anticipating a treat!

he only gets treated when he's good, and usually when I lunge he will get a mint or a fibre plus nugget when i switch reins!
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Horses do sometimes lick their lips when anticipating food - maybe related to saliva flow too.
 
I think as with most behaviours, context and a 'whole body picture' are everything.

My green mare doesn't lick and chew on lunge but we videoed her being presented with a problem both yesterday and today and saw several lick/ chews in response.

We had trec obstacles out in the indoor school. This girl has never seen poles, tarp, grids, etc. She did great! Straight through grids and walkways, straight over the tarp (led a worried 19 year old pony over, in fact!) but stopped at the bridge. No silliness, she just wasn't sure how to negotiate it.

I encouraged her towards me (coaxing, no force). She'd eventually lick/ chew, then make a forwards movement of her own volition. We didn't make it over the bridge (getting her over wasn't my priority) but today she got a hoof up and each of her self driven movements has been preceded by a lick and chew.

It felt like lick /chew was uncertainty and processing in this context. She showed no other stress signs but it was a challenging session for her where rather than push her over, she was being asked to problem solve.

She was quite literally chewing it over. From the outside, it looked like an internal conversation of sorts.
 
Interesting post. Wondering if there are probably individual reasons differing per horse. Lunging my friends youngster the other week i thought it was like i was the herd and doing the, you've been naughty young horse so we'll push you out until you say sorry kinda thing. When she lowered and licked chewed i swear she was saying, ok ok um sorry, love me and let me in. Bless her, she is an insecure individual though.
 
Java said:
. Wondering if there are probably individual reasons differing per horse.
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Don't know. I have never really noticed it before, I am sure I would. The only thing that I can think is that I started using a different lunge whip as my broke, and it was a bit longer so tended to drive him forwards more. The one day it cracked rather loud and he took off into space so maybe he was a little worried about that.

He's not the type of horse you need to shout at or reprimand very much and I have never been the shouty type, preferring to reward good behaviour with a treat at the end, i.e. 'stand still while I plait you and I will give you a treat afterwards'. He is a good old stick, quite polite and willing and kind. Normally, as with most of my horses, they have practically collapsed out of fright if they get a shout, my old fella Billy would shake if you shouted at him!
 
Ooops sorry, think may have given the wrong impression. Would never shout etc and was not telling her off (agree praise the good is the right way). I was more thinking of the psychology for them of being effectivly driven around the outside. Always thought that must confuse them a bit especially when they're being nothing but good.
 
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