Horse not quite as described

[Abacus]

I have a sweet horse on trial for a week. He was unseen. He was described as a connie (exact word used) and the agent said that he was nervous to have his bridle put on and taken off. No other details of any issues. He isn't cheap. He has arrived with a replacement passport with no breeding so can't prove he is actually a full connemara (which is what I expected). He is also more generally nervous than I expected - admittedly we are on day 2 in a new place but I would say that he is more than normally nervous, and is tricky to catch. He's nice to ride except for that he isn't totally straightforward to jump, which also wasn't stated.

My question is: does the lac of registered breeding affect resale value (and by how much, percentage wise?) and also regarding the other glitches - would you have expected them to be disclosed or is that something you just see for yourself in a trial? I'm torn as he's a sweet chap and has some lovely traits but also is not the perfect horse I had hoped for at the price. I'm trying to work out my approach to the agent - I can just send him back, or buy him, but if the latter should I be asking for a reduced price. Any opinions or similar stories welcome! Thx

 

[The Xmas Furry]

If he was described as a Connemara, did you not check the passport for pedigree prior to agreeing to trial him?

Tbh, if he is over 14.2 and a gelding, any breeding isn't necessarily needed except for personal interest as you cannot do pure bred showing classes anyway.

However, if the advert stated pure bred or registered connemara and you dont have the appropriate pedigree passport, then that's breaking trade descriptions act.

If he is 14.2 and under and is on a generic passport then he is worth a heck of a lot less, as registered pedigree ponies command a good price.
Registered overheight ponies also are very sought after and price reflects this on resale.

A replacement passport from the ECPS will be exactly that, a complete replacement including all detailed breeding, tho previous vaccination records would be missing.

 

[irishdraft]

I would think no registered breeding/ replacement passport is not really acceptable if you were led to believe he was a registered Connie and could affect resale. However this probably wouldn't matter to alot if people if the horse did the job. I've just bought a new horse described as straightforward but since being home is she the spookiest creature ever. I did go & try her and she wasn't anything like she is with me now, so new homes,as we know unsettle most horses. Unfortunately there isn't such a thing imo as a perfect horse straight off unless your very lucky . If there's enough good bits hopefully you can work through the issues so he becomes the perfect horse.

 

[stangs]

Ditto what the others said about breeding. As for the other stuff, unless he’s seriously dangerous to jump, and you were led to believe a novice could jump him, I don’t think you’ll be able to ask for a reduced price. They’re always a bit unsure in a new place, and being tricky to catch could just be because of the new location.

 

[milliepops]

if resale or competition is important to you then I would not accept him based on the breeding issue, provided you had clarified he was a pure bred with recorded breeding prior to the horse arriving.

the behavioural bits i would be less concerned by, that's a bit what you get when buying unseen and can probably be improved a lot.

 

[GreyDot]

As above re. the passport (although I'd have assumed they would have scanned a copy for you to look at before buying/travelling so that you knew the paperwork was all in order).
Re. the behaviour, you are only on day 2 so just give him a chance to settle.

 

[Abacus]

Thanks all. On the behaviour I totally understand that he is new and needs to settle. He doesn't do anything horrible on the ground and clearly tries to behave mostly. I'm pretty sure he'd settle and he's mostly a sweetheart and quite cuddly. But he did buck and fly off pretty fast after a fence (tiny, from trot) which wasn't really expected. On the breeding I went on trust (stupid) that 'connie' meant with breeding registered. Sure it's all about him doing the job but as he is 15.1 and for my fast-growing son (now 5'7) I would expect to sell him sometime.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Out of interest, who is the passport issuing agency?

 

[Abacus]

Out of interest, who is the passport issuing agency?

Irish Horse Register - no breeding recorded

 

[HopOnTrot]

tbh unless an advert expressly states registered I assume that the seller is most likely guessing, one of mine has a generic passport with a breed listed and tbh she may or may not be that breed.

Take the question back to basics: "Should I buy this horse?"
If you enjoy riding it, can see it has potential to do what you like, it's within budget and sound then you should buy it. Does the jumping put you off?

Does it have a traceable name? Could you go back to the breed and see if they can trace it, is it microchipped?

 

[MuddyMonster]

[QUOTE="Abacus, post: 14927089, member] On the breeding I went on trust (stupid) that 'connie' meant with breeding registered. Sure it's all about him doing the job but as he is 15.1 and for my fast-growing son (now 5'7) I would expect to sell him sometime.[/QUOTE]


Personally, I'd expect connie (or any other breed) to mean connie type, connie part bred or a best guess he's a connie unless it specifically stated registered connemara and included breeding lines.

 

[stormox]

Unless advert had said "registered connemara" and named the parents I certainly wouldn't have expected breeding to be registered.
And as a gelding it wont matter anyway, especially as he's 15.1 so can"t be shown in breed classes.
As regards the jumping - at least give him a week to settle in his new environment.

 

[Wishfilly]

I disagree, if the horse is advertised as a certain breed- and "connie" very much means connemara, I'd expect a full passport with a pedigree. And it will affect resale value. I would have asked to see a photo of the passport before the sale, but legally there's no duty on OP to do this.

If a horse is unregistered, I'd expect the advert to say Connie X or Connie type, or make it otherwise clear the horse is not registered.

However, I very much doubt the seller will agree to a reduced price, so I think your options are to send him back or buy him. I wouldn't expect jumping or necessarily catching to be perfect on day 2!

 

[Muddy unicorn]

I think that dealers sending horses off on a week’s trial are banking on you feeling sorry for the horse and not wanting to disrupt its life any more - plus not wanting to be out of pocket for transport both ways.
I personally think that a week’s trial is a bit pointless - no horse is going to adapt to a new home in such a short time so you’re not really in a better position than you would be if you’d gone and tried the horse at the dealer’s yard. Is the dealer based in Cambridgeshire by any chance?

 

[Abacus]

Personally I like the week trial and have done it successfully before - you do get to try more with the horse than with a viewing at the dealer's yard. It's also easier to get an instructor involved (mine is coming tomorrow) and while I don't expect him to be totally settled within a week you can get a sense for general attitude. They might not have been at the dealer for long anyway.

I'm totally unbothered about breed classes at his height (I don't show anyway) but registered breeding is part of general value. Whether or not this swys an argument with the dealer remains to be seen...

 

[SusieT]

This doesn't sound like the horse for you.

 

[Red-1]

As he is over height, the breeding wouldn't bother me at all. I have recently turned down serious money for my IDX and he is possibly half connie but possibly half something else. He is worth his money as he is a nice type and temperament, people didn't have more than a passing interest in his breeding.

If you don't like him, send him back. If you think he is worth less than you thought, offer less, but don't be surprised if they turn you down.

 

[nutjob]

One of the reasons that dealers get a replacement passport is so that you cannot contact previous owners to find out about previous behaviour or veterinary history. If you are buying via an agent, do you know who actually owns the horse? You are in a more complex legal situation with this agent thing if there is later a problem with the horse especially if the owner is in Ireland. In the first instance I would see if the agent will put you in touch with the current / prior owner to see if the behaviour you are seeing is normal or is due to needing to settle in and will improve and also if the horse has prior veterinary issues. When I was looking I saw loads over from Ireland on copy passports with hind leg / back end issues and I'd want to rule this out given the bucking etc after a tiny jump. Have you checked to see if the agent is mentioned on dodgy dealers fb page?

 

[GreyDot]

The horse will have to have been microchipped before being sold, and that includes being sold from the previous owners to the dealer. Have you had a look at the database to see if you can see who it was registered to previously?

 

[honetpot]

Personally I like the week trial and have done it successfully before - you do get to try more with the horse than with a viewing at the dealer's yard. It's also easier to get an instructor involved (mine is coming tomorrow) and while I don't expect him to be totally settled within a week you can get a sense for general attitude. They might not have been at the dealer for long anyway.

I'm totally unbothered about breed classes at his height (I don't show anyway) but registered breeding is part of general value. Whether or not this swys an argument with the dealer remains to be seen...

I have a Connemara part bred, on a BCPS passport, Connemara's are big business in Ireland and if its one of the parents are registered it's not a lot of money to get them chipped and passported. The passport is always useful because some lines are better for jumping. I would get scanned, because the chip could give you a lead but to be honest,if its older and on a generic new passport I would smell a rat.
I have a now twenty three-year-old pony, he has his original passport, and you can track where he has been just from the stamps for his yearly vaccination, and he has moved approximately every two years, so if someone was selling him the story would have to tally with his passport. Up till two years ago you could have sold him as fourteen, and his mouth at a quick glance does not look his age. I know his age is correct because I originally bought him from the breeder at three.
You also from their registered name find sales ads, and competition results. Unless you really like the pony I would send it back, even a Cx can be sharp and quirky.

 

[nagblagger]

Have you had it vetted in the weeks trial?
if i liked it and thought i could deal with the issues i would definitely buy but at a lower price as 'not described' .

 

[J&S]

You have not said how much he cost (and i can understand why not) but if he was the right sort of money, and you can iron out the wrinkles, then with the extra experience you will give him, surely he will hold his price.... or improve it?

 

[Gloi]

Have you had the vet scan the horse to check if his chip matches the passport or if he has more than one chip?

 

[criso]

How old is the horse?

I would give more leeway to a youngster than an older horse or schoolmaster.

Also the replacement passport would bother me less in a youngster that's just come out of a field, with an older horse, the history is more important.

A little buck and rushing after a jump is not unusual for a baby unsure or getting unbalanced however it could also be discomfort.

I've always been shown the passport when I gone to try a horse and if buying unseen, I would ask about details of breeding. I'm not an expert but will always ask around about bloodlines and temperament.

 

[Leandy]

I'm a bit confused that you didn't ask for information and details about the horse and its history etc before contemplating taking it on unseen?? Yes if a pony was described as connemara then I would expect it to be registered as such, but then I would also have checked the passport or had a further conversation about the breeding if that actually mattered to me because I would have been interested to know the bloodlines. Of course it will be somewhat unsettled at present, what did you expect? It may or may not be behaving as it did previously, and as to how it was described, you don't seem to have had much description? I'd have been specifically asking for a whole lot more as well as videos etc to see how it was going before I would ever have dreamt of taking it on unseen. So it isn't clear whether it is as described or not as you don't really say what information you already have. As to having had a buck etc over a fence, any horse can do this. It may or may not be to do with the horse. It may or may not be to do with it being unsettled, or having a new rider. How competent is your rider? Anyway, I would decide anything on day 2. Leave it until at least day 5 and then see how you feel. It seems very common for horses from Ireland to be somewhat greener than was expected. The question is whether that really matters to you if it is otherwise the right quality animal.

 

[The Bouncing Bog Trotter]

He could be a Connemara that is positive to HWSD and so his passport has been 'lost' and so he is now non-pedigree passport. What are his feet like?

 

[Wishfilly]

He could be a Connemara that is positive to HWSD and so his passport has been 'lost' and so he is now non-pedigree passport. What are his feet like?

Actually this is potentially quite a serious concern. If he's young, I believe he might not show any signs of HWSD yet.

 

[Abacus]

Thanks for all these thoughts. I saw a lot of videos of him, including jumping a sizeable course, with no issues. His flatwork is similar to the videos but less so the jumping - being unsettled and a different rider might account for this and I'm certainly prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is 8, so not a baby but still young enough to be green in some ways. He is 5 figures, so I would expect him to be quite well established. It's totally correct that I should have asked to see the breeding page on thepassport and I didn't '

 

[Wishfilly]

Thanks for all these thoughts. I saw a lot of videos of him, including jumping a sizeable course, with no issues. His flatwork is similar to the videos but less so the jumping - being unsettled and a different rider might account for this and I'm certainly prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is 8, so not a baby but still young enough to be green in some ways. He is 5 figures, so I would expect him to be quite well established. It's totally correct that I should have asked to see the breeding page on thepassport and I didn't '

For 5 figures, personally I would expect recorded breeding, or a decent competition record.

I think you should speak to the seller sooner, rather than later about the lack of recorded breeding and what you were expecting. I do think it's really unlikely they will agree to a substantial price drop, but if you don't ask, you'll never know.

 

[Abacus]

Pressed send too soon. I didn't see that page. His passport has been with him since Jan 2018 and has vax history etc.

I am riding him myself - he is intended, not immediately, for my son who is 12 but competent and tall. I think I am a reasonable although amateur rider - have evented to a decent level - he isn't being ridden by an utter novice. I do intend to get a friend who rides my horses (advanced event rider) to have a sit and see what she thinks, and I have a lesson booked tomorrow to get a second opinion. And of course I will give him a full trial up to 6 days - I don't expect perfection on day 1 but am more trying to judge if he is overpriced for what he is, taking into account the nervousness, jumping and passport situation.