Horse opening mouth when ridden - what to do?

[NellRosk]

Rising 6 year old mare has a cavesson with a flash and a mexican grackle. In both she has a strop for the first 10 minutes of schooling, shakes her head in disgust and is quite hard and unyielding in the contact. Then she'll settle down and work nicely.

I took her noseband off a few months ago and she works beautifully without. Soft in the mouth and not as many strops. However she opens her mouth a lot. My old instructor said to put the flash on and persevere but tbh I hate the argument and think it is counterproductive. I don't want her to associate schooling with a fight.

So what to do? Should also add her teeth are regularly checked, she had all her wolf teeth removed when she was 2 so I don't think it's pain related. Also if it was pain surely she wouldn't settle down and work nicely? Would you leave her nosebandless and just let her get on with opening her mouth? Last year she used to get her tongue over the bit but hasn't done this for ages.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Maybe try changing your bit. Mouths change a lot as youngsters and what suited her before she may now find too thick or too thin or the wrong type for her now. I certainly wouldn't go back to strapping her mouth shut especially as she seems to strongly disagree with that tactic.

 

[NellRosk]

Maybe try changing your bit. Mouths change a lot as youngsters and what suited her before she may now find too thick or too thin or the wrong type for her now. I certainly wouldn't go back to strapping her mouth shut especially as she seems to strongly disagree with that tactic.

That was my thoughts exactly! She's a huge strong youngster, any fights we have she is sure to win She's just in a NS loose ring snaffle with a lozenge, nothing harsh. Any suggestions what else to try her in? I'm kind of reluctant to change her bit because she's going really nicely at the moment (sans noseband).

eta she mouths up really easily, I've never had such a foamy horse!

 

[milliepops]

I've got one a bit like this - she is much more settled in a drop noseband. Have you tried one of them instead? You don't have to do them up very tight to be effective, and it doesn't squash the cheeks into the teeth as can happen with a snug flash

 

[NellRosk]

I've got one a bit like this - she is much more settled in a drop noseband. Have you tried one of them instead? You don't have to do them up very tight to be effective, and it doesn't squash the cheeks into the teeth as can happen with a snug flash

I haven't tried a drop actually, completely forgot about them! Don't see them around as much, not sure why though? I'll deffos try one, thanks

 

[milliepops]

I think they fell out of fashion a while ago when everyone started putting crank flashes on all the bridles
They seem to be coming back now. There are always a few old cheap ones on ebay if you don't have one in the tackroom.

 

[oldie48]

I have the same issue with my horse and i now use a drop which has helped him to settle. i also found my old horse went best in a drop too. i understand that fairfax have been doing some work looking at the relevant pressures of different nose bands and found a drop put much less pressure on the horse's nose etc than a flash. I'd love to be able to ride my boy in just a plain cavesson (and do on a hack) but he opens his mouth and clacks away with his teeth. He's no longer a young horse and having seen videos of him before I bought him, it's something he's always done, his teeth, saddle fit etc etc are all fine.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Why does she need a noseband?
I would try long reining with a few mild bits of different thickenesses and configurations.
Look in the mouth.

 

[NellRosk]

I think they fell out of fashion a while ago when everyone started putting crank flashes on all the bridles
They seem to be coming back now. There are always a few old cheap ones on ebay if you don't have one in the tackroom.

Great I'll have a look now It will have to be in extra full so don't think my local tack shop will have one.

I have the same issue with my horse and i now use a drop which has helped him to settle. i also found my old horse went best in a drop too. i understand that fairfax have been doing some work looking at the relevant pressures of different nose bands and found a drop put much less pressure on the horse's nose etc than a flash. I'd love to be able to ride my boy in just a plain cavesson (and do on a hack) but he opens his mouth and clacks away with his teeth. He's no longer a young horse and having seen videos of him before I bought him, it's something he's always done, his teeth, saddle fit etc etc are all fine.

That's really useful to know, thanks. Going to try pick up a cheap one on eBay to try.

Why does she need a noseband?
I would try long reining with a few mild bits of different thicjkenssss

I never said she needed a noseband, my question was should I just leave her without a noseband to open her mouth? I don't know if it's something she'll grow out of, I don't want the problem to get worse. Thanks, do you have any suggestions of bits?

 

[pennyturner]

Worth trying sweet iron / copper, which encourages them to mouth and accept the bit - this was the key for my fussy hackney (although he still sticks his tongue out sometimes when he's bored!)

 

[NellRosk]

Worth trying sweet iron / copper, which encourages them to mouth and accept the bit - this was the key for my fussy hackney (although he still sticks his tongue out sometimes when he's bored!)

Her bit has a high copper content and she's really mouthy and foamy in it which indicates she's happy! Bit of a strange one really, I don't know why she's opening her mouth!

 

[milliepops]

it can just be a habit, sometimes there isn't anything more sinister to it. One of mine has never opened her mouth, the other will do it until she accepts the contact & starts to swing, and the drop helps us to get to that point more quickly. Then you can hear her teeth gently rattling together as she relaxes her jaw completely
If you think she's happy in her mouth then I wouldn't be too quick to chop & change bits. Sometimes you can educate them out of the habit and you'll be able to return to a cavesson.

 

[milo'n'molly]

I certainly wouldn't strap her mouth shut and start an argument, it's just not worth it. Some things to consider Have you thought about trying a straight bar bit? Less movement might suit her better?
What is your warm up like? Does she get to warm up long and low before you pick up a shorter contact? Does she really understand what the contact is? Has your instructor given you any other suggestions other than strap her mouth shut?

 

[NellRosk]

it can just be a habit, sometimes there isn't anything more sinister to it. One of mine has never opened her mouth, the other will do it until she accepts the contact & starts to swing, and the drop helps us to get to that point more quickly. Then you can hear her teeth gently rattling together as she relaxes her jaw completely
If you think she's happy in her mouth then I wouldn't be too quick to chop & change bits. Sometimes you can educate them out of the habit and you'll be able to return to a cavesson.

Thanks milliepops, that's reassuring and very informative!

I certainly wouldn't strap her mouth shut and start an argument, it's just not worth it. Some things to consider Have you thought about trying a straight bar bit? Less movement might suit her better?
What is your warm up like? Does she get to warm up long and low before you pick up a shorter contact? Does she really understand what the contact is? Has your instructor given you any other suggestions other than strap her mouth shut?

Exactly, then she'll start acting out in other ways. No haven't thought about a straight bar, I don't really have much experience with them! Yes she does have a good stretch before and I *think* she understands what the contact is because she really works through from behind into the contact and doesn't just have an outline. Also should have mentioned, I haven't had lessons since last year so no other suggestions from instructor. I'm going to get my butt into gear in a few weeks or so and book some lessons with someone. It's hard when you're the only one riding them and can't see how rubbish you are!

 

[oldie48]

Exactly the same experience with my boy, he's in a loose ring KK ultra, he came to me in an eggbutt which he liked because he could clamp his teeth on it so he looked stiller in his mouth but he was fixed and a bit heavy in the hand. In the KK he can't do this, so it's been a bit of a learning curve for him. Once he gives in his poll, and works through he becomes much quieter in the mouth. TBH though I don't think he'll ever be totally quiet but it's all a journey isn't it?

it can just be a habit, sometimes there isn't anything more sinister to it. One of mine has never opened her mouth, the other will do it until she accepts the contact & starts to swing, and the drop helps us to get to that point more quickly. Then you can hear her teeth gently rattling together as she relaxes her jaw completely

 

[smja]

I'd try a fixed ring bit - eggbutt or full cheek. Some horses prefer less bit movement, and this change made a world of difference with my mouth-opening horse. I'd leave the flash off too

 

[Wheels]

How much foam are we talking about here? Too much suggests she is not able to swallow which is not good.

In answer to your original q, I would just keep on with no noseband or just a cavesson, if she stops opening her mouth after 10 minutes then I wouldn't be too worried.

However I would be starting to make mental notes about exactly when this is happening, is my contact too light, too strong, am I circling or bending when this starts, is she on the forehand, does it continue after warm up or come back intermittently, does she chomp etc. in my opinion opening the mouth is usually a reaction to something else, too tight a contact or perhaps the horse is just very sensitive on the lips or bars of her mouth. You don't see many horses standing tacked up with their mouths open (although not impossible I realise) it is only when the contact is taken up that these things arise which suggests they are reacting to the pressure of the hand.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Well, I really can't suggest anything not knowing the horse, and they are so expensive, sorry, but I would try simplest and mildest under long rein and in a manege, using two reins allows you to see how she holds her mouth and if there is any saliva, I started all my ponies in a Neu Schule starter, which is loose ring, and has a lozenge so comfortable for the average mouth, but once a problem has emerged one has to try something different. My boy only accepted contact as long as he was not asked to work slightly "harder", I fixed this with a hanging baucher with lozenge.
But it sounds to me as though though your problem is more with finding a bit which is comfortable. I always prefer a soft bit rather than stainless steel. Sometimes a cherry roller can be a good bit for a strong horse. But it may the diameter which is the problem. Obviously teeth are an issue, are the gums inflamed at all, is the bit sitting comfortably and at the correct height, it should not be pinching or too loose.
I asked the bit expert on Nue Schule for advice which is how we came up with the starter. There are also bit banks who advise, and you can send them back.
The other thing is to think about cranio massage, it may be a physical problem I had my boy checked when he was sent away for schooling, he stiffened up along his back and was mighty pleased to get relief. The same lady did do cranio massage but apparently he did not need it, even though he had always seemed to me to be fairly inflexible along the neck.

 

[ihatework]

A horse with an open mouth isn't 100% happy or through to the contact.

She objects with her noseband shut for a reason. And is happier with no noseband because she can evade the bit pressure easier.

There is no easy solution, and those of us who are honest will say that we have all been there and done that! It's most likely either a schooling/riding problem or the but doesn't suit her.

I'd avoid a snug flash/grackle - use the mouth opening as a guide to when things are improving.

A good sympathetic trainer should help

 

[NellRosk]

Exactly the same experience with my boy, he's in a loose ring KK ultra, he came to me in an eggbutt which he liked because he could clamp his teeth on it so he looked stiller in his mouth but he was fixed and a bit heavy in the hand. In the KK he can't do this, so it's been a bit of a learning curve for him. Once he gives in his poll, and works through he becomes much quieter in the mouth. TBH though I don't think he'll ever be totally quiet but it's all a journey isn't it?

It is indeed! Yeah that's why I put her in the NS loose ring, broke her in a Fulmer and moved her out of it in case she leaned and got too heavy.

I'd try a fixed ring bit - eggbutt or full cheek. Some horses prefer less bit movement, and this change made a world of difference with my mouth-opening horse. I'd leave the flash off too

I will deffos try one, I think I have one lying about in my garage somewhere! Worried she'll lean on a fixed ring but it's worth a go

How much foam are we talking about here? Too much suggests she is not able to swallow which is not good.

In answer to your original q, I would just keep on with no noseband or just a cavesson, if she stops opening her mouth after 10 minutes then I wouldn't be too worried.

However I would be starting to make mental notes about exactly when this is happening, is my contact too light, too strong, am I circling or bending when this starts, is she on the forehand, does it continue after warm up or come back intermittently, does she chomp etc. in my opinion opening the mouth is usually a reaction to something else, too tight a contact or perhaps the horse is just very sensitive on the lips or bars of her mouth. You don't see many horses standing tacked up with their mouths open (although not impossible I realise) it is only when the contact is taken up that these things arise which suggests they are reacting to the pressure of the hand.

Hmm I would say just a normal amount but it seems loads to me because my gelding has never had any hint of foam around the mouth! She tends to open her mouth (from what I can see) when I am asking for contact for example on a circle. She is worse on one rein than the other. And sorry for not being clear, it's when she has a flash/ grackle on that she strops and opens her mouth for 10 mins before settling down. Without a noseband she will be opening her mouth for the whole schooling session.

 

[NellRosk]

Well, I really can't suggest anything not knowing the horse, and they are so expensive, sorry, but I would try simplest and mildest under long rein and in a manege, using two reins allows you to see how she holds her mouth and if there is any saliva, I started all my ponies in a Neu Schule starter, which is loose ring, and has a lozenge so comfortable for the average mouth, but once a problem has emerged one has to try something different. My boy only accepted contact as long as he was not asked to work slightly "harder", I fixed this with a hanging baucher with lozenge.
But it sounds to me as though though your problem is more with finding a bit which is comfortable. I always prefer a soft bit rather than stainless steel. Sometimes a cherry roller can be a good bit for a strong horse. But it may the diameter which is the problem. Obviously teeth are an issue, are the gums inflamed at all, is the bit sitting comfortably and at the correct height, it should not be pinching or too loose.
I asked the bit expert on Nue Schule for advice which is how we came up with the starter. There are also bit banks who advise, and you can send them back.
The other thing is to think about cranio massage, it may be a physical problem I had my boy checked when he was sent away for schooling, he stiffened up along his back and was mighty pleased to get relief. The same lady did do cranio massage but apparently he did not need it, even though he had always seemed to me to be fairly inflexible along the neck.

Thanks Bonkers! Very useful, think I will contact NS or the bit bank for some advice. Ooh what's cranio massage? I'll ask around see if anyone knows anyone who does it in my area, she's due a physio appt anyway!

 

[NellRosk]

A horse with an open mouth isn't 100% happy or through to the contact.

She objects with her noseband shut for a reason. And is happier with no noseband because she can evade the bit pressure easier.

There is no easy solution, and those of us who are honest will say that we have all been there and done that! It's most likely either a schooling/riding problem or the but doesn't suit her.

I'd avoid a snug flash/grackle - use the mouth opening as a guide to when things are improving.

A good sympathetic trainer should help

I'm not sure why she's objecting though Going to book some lessons soon anyway and in the mean time will get someone to film me riding so I can see if it's obviously something I'm doing.

 

[twiggy2]

my mare used to do this and she cannot wear a cavesson or browband as she head shakes with one on, she wore a drop and was fine in that then a friend bought me a micklem and she is much more even on the contact, less head shaking but still some, the nose part is really loose too but the mouth opening seems to have been solved but the change in bridle.

 

[NellRosk]

my mare used to do this and she cannot wear a cavesson or browband as she head shakes with one on, she wore a drop and was fine in that then a friend bought me a micklem and she is much more even on the contact, less head shaking but still some, the nose part is really loose too but the mouth opening seems to have been solved but the change in bridle.

I was actually thinking of hiring a Micklem to try her in but she has a massive head and I'm not confident about fitting them. Did you find yours okay to fit to your mare?

 

[twiggy2]

my mare has a massive and odd shaped head for her size, she is 15hh and is in a large cob size head collar on it's last holes or a full size on first holes. she is also very big under her jaw and across her brow-she had extra full brow bands but they were still snug, I tried 3 sizes of the micklem before settling on the small horse size. It was snug around her jawline at first but is now on the second hole there so has given a bit as it has worn in.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

My first thought was "change your instructor". I hate the idea of ignoring what your horse is trying to tell you and forcing it to submit instead.

I would check that the bit you are currently using isn't scratched or damaged in any way and then experiment with different bits loose ring/eggbut, single joint/link/mullen mouth/port and different materials to see which suits her best. I would also experiment with moving the bit up/down to see if that makes her more comfortable.

 

[CowCob]

Hire some different bits from the Bit bank have a couple of schooling sessions with them each see what she likes best. Borrow (or pick up second hand ones cheap) some different nosebands, have a play with them as well with different bit combos.

When I started the MooCob I put in a straight bar rubber loose ring, and boy we were not happy! It moved too much for her, had no play in it and it was way too thick for her tongue. Swapped to a eggbutt snaffle, nope still not it! Swapped to a thinish Happy Mouth Feeling Flexi full cheek, perfect! Doesn't wibble all over, loads of tongue room, can have a little mouth at it and most importantly, it wasn't made of metal! Turns out she was hissy fitting (first 5-10 minutes, mouth open, head all over the shop) over it being cold in her mouth. So now if she does have a metal bit it needs to be soaked in hot water for a few minutes before popping it in her mouth (just to take the chill off of it)
Now she's in a JP Korsteel eggbutt sweet iron french link and loving it, the curves in it work great for her, reasonable price for one as well.

 

[Tnavas]

Why does she need a noseband?
I would try long reining with a few mild bits of different thickenesses and configurations.
Look in the mouth.

Because she opens her mouth!!

OP - Have you had a chiropractor check her over? Often its because the poll is out, you could also try some stretching exercises with her before you get on - carrot stretches, either side and between legs.

A drop may work far better as the drop part is further around than when using a flash where the bottom strap lies across the sensitive nostrils. I've had a lot of success with head shakers by removing the bottom strap.

A drop though is supposed to be used with a bit with cheeks such as a Fulmer, Full cheek snaffle or Tom Thumb (spoon snaffle) aas these bits keep the back strap in the correct place - with a ring bit they have been known to lie across the bit ring, compressing the bit into the side of the mouth.

 

[Kat]

Try a bit that takes up less room in her mouth. NS lozenge bits are lovely but don't suit every horse. Mine goes better in a NS Demi Anky or a very slim french link with a drop noseband. She has a big tongue and a small mouth so struggles to close her mouth at the best of times.

 

[Auslander]

Do you think she is truly up to the contact? You say she is very light, but sometimes that is as much of an evasion as being strong in the hand. Alf is a very established horse, but he's very clever about evading a true contact, whilst feeling lovely because he is working in an advanced outline, and is very light. He ducks behind the contact, sticks his nose on his chest, opens his mouth and taps his teeth when he's not truly on the job, particularly when he is excited about doing something he considers to be fun! It's not related to my hands, because he does it just as much, if not more, when I'm hacking on a loose rein.

If I get after him a bit, get his nose out in front and work him up to a slightly stronger contact, he stops messing about with the tapping/mouth opening, and is far more focused. I ride him in a single jointed eggbutt with curved mouthpiece and a cavesson noseband - which seems to suit him better than anything with a wibbly wobbly mouthpiece.