Horse passed vetting but has arthritis

[Joelkan]

He has never tied up so doubtful he has PSSM. He is an Andalusian.

 

[tallyho!]

He has never tied up so doubtful he has PSSM. He is an Andalusian.

So is mine. It is not unheard of in the Andalusian. When mine first started showing signs I too thought it was all manner of mechanical problems. It was a year before she finally tied up and was diagnosed. It wasn’t even hard work, just trot.

 

[ycbm]

He has never tied up so doubtful he has PSSM. He is an Andalusian.

Most horses with PSSM never noticeably tie up.

 

[Joelkan]

Hi, how do they diagnose PSSM. Is it a blood test?

 

[ycbm]

Hi, how do they diagnose PSSM. Is it a blood test?

DNA test for type 1 and muscle biopsy for type 2. There is a type 2 DNA test available in the US, I think.

 

[tallyho!]

DNA test for type 1 and muscle biopsy for type 2. There is a type 2 DNA test available in the US, I think.

Yes by EQUISEQ. Your vet needs to come and put blood on a blood card.

 

[ycbm]

But you should also know that some vets, mine included, believe that type 2 is more than one disease, so negative on both DNA tests will not mean that a horse does not have PSSM and only a biopsy will rule it out.

Until recently I had two with type two and they reacted very differently to a shortage of vitamin E last year.

If your horse has hock changes to account for her issues, then I wouldn't be bothering to get a diagnosis on PSSM. You can simply try the diet and see if it makes any difference.

 

[tallyho!]

But you should also know that some vets, mine included, believe that type 2 is more than one disease, so negative on both DNA tests will not mean that a horse does not have PSSM and only a biopsy will rule it out.

Until recently I had two with type two and they reacted very differently to a shortage of vitamin E last year.

If your horse has hock changes to account for her issues, then I wouldn't be bothering to get a diagnosis on PSSM. You can simply try the diet and see if it makes any difference.

I would 2nd ycbm's post here.

I'm not saying that it isn't arthritis, but the symptoms are very similar and it looks like the horse has hock issues/back issues/stiff and not very wiling to go forward. I spent loads on different saddles, joint supps etc.

The difference in mine is pretty staggering- I cant believe I didn't suspect it earlier.

 

[Frumpoon]

Has the arthritis been confirmed by X-ray?

 

[ester]

Has the arthritis been confirmed by X-ray?

yes see post #30

 

[Frumpoon]

Soz, being idle...if arthritis is confirmed why are we looking at pssm?

 

[ihatework]

Soz, being idle...if arthritis is confirmed why are we looking at pssm?

Because everything has PSSM now dontcha know

 

[Hack4fun]

The key question is not how long ago the vetting was but whether there is any evidence that the vet was negligent at the vetting. There is the video from that time. Has an expert seen it? You will need an expert who is willing to say that the horse was not sound and the vet should have seen it. Nobody on this forum has seen the evidence and so nobody, including me, is in a position to pronounce on the outcome of the vetting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Tiddlypom I hope your mare is pain free and sound so you can enjoy riding her. As you said the vetting is only how an animal presents on the day and I didn’t see him being vetted in the day so I now have to try and get my boy comfortable and hopefully sound again.

Thanks.

She has responded very well to hock injections. Her off hind hock has already nearly fused so it was quite tricky for the vet to find a space to insert the needle, and she is still a little stiff on it. The arthritis in her near hind is not as advanced although she presented as lamer on it pre hock jabs, it has since improved a lot. Under vet's orders, we are about to embark on a long fittening program of steady hacking, in walk at first, to build up correct musculature.

The PSSM may well be a red herring, but it can cause simliar symptoms to hock arthritis, and as I know only too well, a horse can have both conditions. She improved dramatically after I introduced a high level of vitamin E and oil to her diet, she had been so nowty and grumpy before then that I was at the point of gifting her back to her breeder. I now have the lovely kind horse that I thought I'd bought, albeit a slightly creaky one .

 

[ycbm]

Because everything has PSSM now dontcha know

I've seen you mock like this this before, and I can only say that if you ever own one, you will stop mocking. Untreated, it's a miserable disease for a horse to live with undiagnosed.

Surely better if a thousand horses are tried with some harmless diet changes than one more 'lazy' horse is booted and beaten to move when it's in pain, no?

 

[SEL]

I've seen you mock like this this before, and I can only say that if you ever own one, you will stop mocking. Untreated, it's a miserable disease for a horse to live with undiagnosed.

Surely better if a thousand horses are tried with some harmless diet changes than one more 'lazy' horse is booted and beaten to move when it's in pain, no?

Thank you for saying what I was thinking. I own 2 with type 1 PSSM and it's hard work, expensive and soul destroying at times. Both have arthritis alongside their muscular problems (severe hock arthritis x-rayed at 6), so the two conditions are linked.

 

[ihatework]

I've seen you mock like this this before, and I can only say that if you ever own one, you will stop mocking. Untreated, it's a miserable disease for a horse to live with undiagnosed.

Surely better if a thousand horses are tried with some harmless diet changes than one more 'lazy' horse is booted and beaten to move when it's in pain, no?

How do you know I haven’t dealt with one?

OP, unless you have a very healthy bank balance and an ability to isolate and interpret multiple treatments and effects then my advice would be to follow your Vets advice and treat the arthritis first. If down the line you are still running into problems and can exclude the hocks as a cause then there is a whole list of other things to consider, muscle conditions included.

 

[ycbm]

How do you know I haven’t dealt with one?

I can't imagine why anyone who has dealt with one would mock other people trying to help people who might have one, and you've done it on several threads lately.

To be honest, if you have dealt with one, then shame on you for your lack of support about a disease which too many vets are still too unaware of, to the detriment of horses who live in full time low grade pain.

 

[tallyho!]

I can't imagine why anyone who has dealt with one would mock other people trying to help people who might have one, and you've done it on several threads lately.

To be honest, if you have dealt with one, then shame on you for your lack of support about a disease which too many vets are still too unaware of, to the detriment of horses who live in full time low grade pain.

hear hear.

IHW... if you had dealt with PSSM then I doubt very much you would be saying treat the arthritis. A healthy bank balance is not needed to deal with PSSM, and a properly managed horse is more than capable of returning to full work - whereas with arthritis, the prognosis is much poorer over time.

My mare was also "diagnosed" with arthritic changes and lo and behold, that was not the case although untreated PSSM may indeed lead to arthritis due to the way that horse would carry itself. The research is filtering through... thankfully I eventually found a vet who know a thing or two about it... shame I waited until my horse couldn't move and was sweating from head to toe to call one in for a 2nd opinion.

 

[ihatework]

I can't imagine why anyone who has dealt with one would mock other people trying to help people who might have one, and you've done it on several threads lately.

To be honest, if you have dealt with one, then shame on you for your lack of support about a disease which too many vets are still too unaware of, to the detriment of horses who live in full time low grade pain.

The OP came on asking about comeback on a Vet for a horse with diagnosed arthritis.
Without prompting it suddenly has PSSM because of course the Vets are always wrong. Hell, why don’t we just give it ulcers, kissing spine, psd, cushings and a liver tumour while we are at it!

I’m the first to look at a variety of issues but unasked for diagnosis by Internet is unhelpful at best. Work through things systematically (starting with the most obvious cause - in this case arthritis).

 

[ycbm]

The OP came on asking about comeback on a Vet for a horse with diagnosed arthritis.
Without prompting it suddenly has PSSM because of course the Vets are always wrong. Hell, why don’t we just give it ulcers, kissing spine, psd, cushings and a liver tumour while we are at it!

I’m the first to look at a variety of issues but unasked for diagnosis by Internet is unhelpful at best. Work through things systematically (starting with the most obvious cause - in this case arthritis).

I still don't get the necessity of the mockery, sorry.

The OP was questioning why a lame horse shuffling its back legs passed a five stage vetting, only to be diagnosed with hock arthritis nine months later. Posters were pointing out that the shuffling at the time, which can apparently be seen with an eagle eye on video, could have been caused by something quite different, and that PSSM would be a possible candidate at that time. It didn't come from nowhere.

Like it or not, and you clearly don't, many vets are woefully unaware of muscle myopathy. And the diet is harmless. And I'm glad that on this forum we never now see anyone advised how to escalate the booting and whipping of a 'lazy' horse without it being mentioned.

 

[OldFogie]

...... have a very healthy bank balance

What, and be an Owner? Great time of my life but I wouldn't wanna write down what horses and private schools cost me - or ballet lessons ( not for me before any comedienes spot that one!)

... and an ability to isolate and interpret multiple treatments and effects ....

Well, I've just researched PSSM on Wrongipedia and feel I'm an expert so ask away.

.... my advice would be to follow your Vets advice .....

And mine. It's a fat lot of good employing experts and then not following their advice.

 

[milliepops]

I still don't get the necessity of the mockery, sorry.

The OP was questioning why a lame horse shuffling its back legs passed a five stage vetting, only to be diagnosed with hock arthritis nine months later. Posters were pointing out that the shuffling at the time, which can apparently be seen with an eagle eye on video, could have been caused by something quite different, and that PSSM would be a possible candidate at that time. It didn't come from nowhere.

whether or not the horse has PSSM I think that I tend to agree with IHW that it gets suggested for just about everything a horse can be "off" with at the moment... it definitely feels like the new kissing spines on here. I'm also all for awareness and suggestions for other things to consider but I agree that the OP came with a question about arthritis, which has been confirmed on xRay, and would be a candidate for treatment which might help. IMO the OP should explore this first without delay, and then maybe look at other things if the horse does not improve.

Also, we all read things through the filter of our own experiences - the bit I've bolded is your interpretation of the OP stating the horse kicked the surface up with his hindlegs... none of us have seen the video I'm assuming, so it might not have been shuffling at all :wink3: I've seen horses flick surface up because of their action, or the type of surface etc. It's possibly a complete red herring.

 

[tallyho!]

It's a fat lot of good employing experts and then not following their advice.

I think the world has come to the consensus on more than one occasion, that experts are experts because they get it so wrong.

Off to butter my toast. With a pinch of salt of course. (Margarine is so 1992)

 

[ycbm]

whether or not the horse has PSSM I think that I tend to agree with IHW that it gets suggested for just about everything a horse can be "off" with at the moment... it definitely feels like the new kissing spines on here. I'm also all for awareness and suggestions for other things to consider but I agree that the OP came with a question about arthritis, which has been confirmed on xRay, and would be a candidate for treatment which might help. IMO the OP should explore this first without delay, and then maybe look at other things if the horse does not improve.

Also, we all read things through the filter of our own experiences - the bit I've bolded is your interpretation of the OP stating the horse kicked the surface up with his hindlegs... none of us have seen the video I'm assuming, so it might not have been shuffling at all :wink3: I've seen horses flick surface up because of their action, or the type of surface etc. It's possibly a complete red herring.

So you want a semantic argument about the interpretation of one word?

You will notice that I was not one the people who suggested PSSM and I don't disagree with focusing on the hock arthritis.

I was, however, concerned about the mockery of people who were trying to help.

Kissing spines hasn't gone away and has indeed proved to be very common. Ditto ulcers. PSSM is just joining them. I could cry for the horses who are still working in pain with those problems because their experts either don't know about them or don't know enough to suggest the horse is checked for them.


I saw someone who lost a horse at five to ulcers, which had been problematic since starting backing at three , offer advice the other day to someone NOT to have their horse scoped. I'd rather a thousand horses which don't have it were checked for PSSM, scoped for ulcers and x rayed for kissing spines, than see that kind of advice!

And I can't be doing with mockery from people who have been lucky enough never to deal with one or more of these problems, sorry.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I plead guilty to mentioning PSSM in my first post on this thread. It was relevant to the OP as one of three major conditions which were found within a year of my horse sailing through a 5 stage vetting by a top practice.

I'm sorry that some folk think that PSSM is the new fashionable disease to have. I and my horse thank those posters who have flagged up PSSM on various threads as without that prompt, my horse would be much unhappier and less sound than she is now.

OP, I wish you well with your horse.

 

[milliepops]

So you want a semantic argument about the interpretation of one word?

jeez I don't want an argument at all :rolleyes3:
I'm just saying it's a lot to extrapolate from the few -different- words in the OP that's all. I didn't read mockery in IHW's post anyway, I don't think there's a need to start jumping up and down accusing people of poking fun at horses in pain, it was just a lighthearted response... no need to get personal?

 

[LaurenBay]

OP, I don't think you have a come back. Sorry.

I can sympathize though, I have had to retire my 13YO mare due to advanced hock arthritis.

 

[SEL]

OP - presumably the horse didn't show any signs of lameness within a week or so of being vetted? That would imply bute or similar wearing off. If you can access the article below then it makes for interesting reading. Even if you had x-rays done as part of the vetting, arthritis doesn't always equal lameness. Generally I would say that if the problem arose within 6 months of the vetting then you might have an argument against the vets, but I know someone currently is dispute over a £20k horse who went lame in that period and is getting nowhere. Sometimes I think the vetting process is just so the insurers can lengthen their list of excluded items.

Personally I think IHW is being obnoxious about PSSM, but then that's probably because its a subject close to my heart. I've just re-read the whole thread and PSSM only came up because Tiddlypom mentioned it in conjunction with their horse's treatment. You've said you don't think your horse fits the profile, but if you want a more in depth look then I've just posted a link to Dr Valberg's presentation on the subject on the other PSSM thread that is running. It makes for an educational hour even if your horse turns out to have 'just' arthritis - in which case there are a number of other threads which have a lot of helpful info in them.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/e-ve...-to-look-for-in-the-eventer/1597712643611191/

 

[stormox]

It was a year ago! For crying out loud, of course you don't have a case of anything against the vet, legal or just blame! As for your instructor saying it looked lame on the video....well....hindsight a wonderful thing. And may I ask, with your experience, did he look lame to you that day? Kicking up school surface is nothing. There is no blame, he has arthritis after a year, no vet carries a crystal ball.

Exactly this!!