Horse still bucking WWYD?

The saga continues.....

Shortly after posting this thread, the decision was made to go down the vet route. Initial vet visit involved watching horse on lunge then hind limb flexion tests. Vets opinion was horse not tracking-up behind and unsound.

Full lameness work-up and bone scan later......numerous Vets scratching their heads not finding anything specifically wrong with horse. Vets decision is a Bute Trial.

Anyone else been in similar predicament?

Thanks everyone!
 
Just to make sure we know what we mean, the horse has had a gamma ray scintigraph?

Has it had back x rays? Kissing spine pain can be caused by clashing nerves that won't necessarily show as inflammation on a scintigraph.

Under the circumstances, I would not expect a Bute trial to do anything, it at least it would be cheap!
 
I had a horse that behaved exactly like this. we did find the problem. he had an unusually wide spine bone and considerable remembered pain from saddles. broken in Ireland and had a career bucking all and sundry off in England. Sold to me as unbroken but was aware there would be problems when he jumped three feet in the air when I put my hands in the saddle area when I bought him. he was very nervous but kind enough so decided to take a chance. two very experienced friends helped me reback him but the problem remained until I found the problem which was two fold. needed a high but back head and a very wide channel in the saddle plus sufficient padding to ensure the saddle did not ever touch the spine, plus a sheepskin ( with sheepskin on) half pad and a sheepskin numnah. massaged his back to release tension before girthing up very slowly, he would cramp the supporting muscles before your eyes if you did not. he did not have any physical problems as was thoroughly checked. to start with had to spend time backing in the stable before every ride, and yes he was terrified of a mounting block etc. However as long as you were always very careful he was the safest hack ever and jumoed really well but still had problems in the school if there were no jumps in it. memories I assume as he never did it in the ring only if you decided to do flat work, I assume that's as far as they ever got before. so, in short as long as he was not doing what they did before he was fine and I did have to make sure no-one ever stood next to a jump ( presumably had been chased over them. lovely horse just wish I had got him first as he would have been broken at his speed.
 
carolineb said:
I also agree on this - horses don't behave this way unless they are in pain and it sounds like the poor horse is in a lot of pain.
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I have to agree with the others suggesting the pain factor - this sounds so much like my girl 2 years ago. All the anxiety/fidgeting etc and then explosions, and i mean, real explosions under saddle. Didn't know she was capable of making the shapes she made (and she is such a kind natured horse who loves working). Long story short, x rays revealed and confirmed our suspicions - kissing spines but, after surgery she is doing extremely well and never a repeat of those explosions
 
My now 6 year old mare did this about 14/15 months ago. Id had her about 4 months - sane, sensible (if green in school) but genuine. I came off her in a hacking accident (spooked by ramblers) and broke my leg weeks before i moved her home from livery. When i started riding again (ridden by a mate whilst i was off) - second or third time, she lost it, took off down our drive, broncing, i came off and she took herself through our neighbours hedge (5 foot drop over stock fencing). Next time i got on (in school) she tensed the minute i got and rodeod me about the place - no doubt about intention. I was frankly terrified of her. We went down the scan route (especially as she wasnt 100% sound at the back after her broncing fits) - they found nothing (other than mild hot spots which i was told were v normal). I got a new saddler (saddle had been checked and adjusted only 2/3 months before) and as a result bought a new saddle and have not looked back. Im ashamed that i caused her the pain i must have done to make her do that but it shows you can never check the basics too much. We are now on saddle 3 as 6 months post new saddle she started to play up to mount, so got saddler again and issue resolved immediately. Whilst she has no identifiable physical issues, i am now live to how sensitive she is in her back and work with it. She's also a growing/changing shape all the time so be careful yours hasnt just had a growth spurt or weight spurt and saddle no longer right.
 
cptrayes said:
Just to make sure we know what we mean, the horse has had a gamma ray scintigraph?

Has it had back x rays? Kissing spine pain can be caused by clashing nerves that won't necessarily show as inflammation on a scintigraph.

Under the circumstances, I would not expect a Bute trial to do anything, it at least it would be cheap!
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The report states a Nuclear Scintigraphy was performed. No spinal x-rays done. Bute trial next Vet prescribed form of action.

Personally, I believe this horse has spinal issues.

Over £2k spent on VF presently.

Vets did not choose to investigate the spine further, they focused on the RH where they could later find no lameness!
 
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It is now known that a Bute trial will not help with back pain. This horse surely needs back x rays? The vets have spent over a thousand quid of insurance money, I hope, on a scintigraph, why did they not do two hundred quids worth of x rays? If I was the owner I would now insist on them.
 
£200 won't X-ray a whole back but I do think that's what the owner needs to .
It of course could be a serious soft tissue issue but you would expect him to show some sign of it .
I am not a fan of thermal imaging but perhaps that's worth a shot it does not cost a fortune .
 
Goldenstar said:
£200 won't X-ray a whole back but I do think that's what the owner needs to .
It of course could be a serious soft tissue issue but you would expect him to show some sign of it .
I am not a fan of thermal imaging but perhaps that's worth a shot it does not cost a fortune .
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My mares back X-rays cost around the five hundred or a little less mark, had it done at the yard in her stable and could see straight away the KS.

Would push for the back X-ray, danilon never did my mare any good when she was on it for the trial before the X-ray.
 
Illusion100 said:
Horse purchased and the moment a rider sat on back, would buck until rider dumped.

Horse sent to Trainer and was sent back recently deemed suitable for Novice riders and without any issues.

Trainer came to give lesson 3 days after horse home and horse, as soon as rider/owner got on, bucked until rider was dumped on ground for no apparent reason. (Horse was ridden day after coming home by owner and did not buck)

A more experienced rider got on horse, moment asked to walk on horse spun 180 and legged it up arena.

Trainer said can't believe horse bucked first rider off, but they have the other rider to ride horse for them, left yard and cashed the cheques paid by client.

Horse owner has fractured vertebrae and very distressed.

Advice please!
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Have you had a physio to check the horses back???

Believe me if there is inflammation or pain related in the back the end result is the horse bucks till the rider comes off

I have only now after 9 months off riding and 5 months with a broken humerus then had surgery to fix it been given the all clear.

all down to inflammation in his back and injury (all down to a livery's stupidity). It was not horses fault when physio checked his back he reacted to 10lbs of finger pressure so a rider would have been excruciating.


I would get vet
check back
check saddle
 
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My lad had X-rays of his spine, hocks and knees, a full lameness work up, was scoped etc for £600 2 yrs ago! He was a bolter!
The bone scan showed a fractured pelvis despite the fact he was 100% sound in all other tests.

As yours has had the bone scan I'd be insisting on spinal X-rays.
I also know one very very good trainer Who will come out to you and assess the horse. She was instrumental in getting my lad through the remembers pain
 
Agree with above. Back X-rays are a must do. If current vet won't find another.

As you mention he got tense with the bridle on I would also maybe inclined to have poll and neck checked too. Worked with a horse very similar to the one you describe and as soon as you picked up the reins he bucked reared etc. turned out he was tight or had a broken poll (can't remember was a while ago).

Hope you get an answer soon poor soul.
 
cptrayes said:
It is now known that a Bute trial will not help with back pain. This horse surely needs back x rays? The vets have spent over a thousand quid of insurance money, I hope, on a scintigraph, why did they not do two hundred quids worth of x rays? If I was the owner I would now insist on them.
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Do you have any good links re: bute trial ineffective for back pain? I would like to show these to owner as they may sway their opinion to push for spinal x-rays!
 
Hi all, thanks for recent replies. Sorry to hear of the injuries of your horses and yourselves. :(

Horse has had physio before and during time it was at Trainers yard. Physio was very happy with horses back during it's re:backing.

It has also had saddler out, has a well fitting saddle according to Saddler, physio and Vet. It was also ridden in this saddle whilst being re:backed.

When I briefly rode the horse, I got nothing from it's righthand side, nothing, nada, zero. Extremely unwilling to flex to the right and very resistant to right aids in walk, I didn't even bother trotting it just wasn't right. Co-incidently on the lunge this horse is resistant to flex to the inside on right rein from approx. withers to head, maybe even from a bit further down the spine.

I agree with you guys, spinal x-rays seem to be the best port of call and I'm worried about the bute trial anyway, if it doesn't work some poor person (probably me!) might well get violently dumped in the dirt just to 'see if it works'!

It's not my horse and I can't force x-rays but I can now say many people would recommend this. Thanks for all the help!
 
Illusion100 said:
Do you have any good links re: bute trial ineffective for back pain? I would like to show these to owner as they may sway their opinion to push for spinal x-rays!
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No, sorry, I was told it by the owner of agnew equine, a hugely experienced vet, and others on the forum have been told the same by other vets. If you check the Mail for Thursday, though, you'll find an article that says they have just done a huge trial which shows that paracetamol doesn't work on back pain in humans!
 
cptrayes said:
No, sorry, I was told it by the owner of agnew equine, a hugely experienced vet, and others on the forum have been told the same by other vets. If you check the Mail for Thursday, though, you'll find an article that says they have just done a huge trial which shows that paracetamol doesn't work on back pain in humans!
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Im have been telling my doctors that for ages!


Maybe show them this thread? Might be reading what others have suggested might help them decide.

Also if back X-rays come back clear scoping would be my next port of call as I think I remember seeing on here a few others with ulcers said their horses didn't do well to the right.
 
I had a 6 year old, bought as 4 year old, bucked me off on many occasions, spent thousands and thousands on horse being professionally schooled.

Horse never bucked pro's off only me. Had all the physical checks done, vets , thermo imagining, made to measure saddles

You name it I done it.

After numerous nasty hospital trips and operations for me thanks to said horse I finally after 2 years cut my loses and got rid of the horse.

Wish I'd done it at the start instead of wasting so much money, I could of bought the horse 4 times over for what I spent on schooling

You live you learn... Won't make that mistake again

Some people and horsey just don't gel.
 
Have you had the dentist recently? I had issues with mine where he was edgy about being mounted, fine in walk but awful in trot and throwing head up, became lame and very stiff. Physio found nothing, saddle fitter checked and reflocked saddle with no improvement.

Eventually worked out it was wolf teeth which might explain reluctance to be bridled. (Had dismissed teeth as dentist had been recently but apparently filing off sharp edges had enabled the bit to touch the wobbly wolf teeth). So with us, the dentist came, removed sharp edges and this unmasked a wolf teeth problem that. Might be worth checking?
 
surreygirl17 said:
Have you had the dentist recently? I had issues with mine where he was edgy about being mounted, fine in walk but awful in trot and throwing head up, became lame and very stiff. Physio found nothing, saddle fitter checked and reflocked saddle with no improvement.

Eventually worked out it was wolf teeth which might explain reluctance to be bridled. (Had dismissed teeth as dentist had been recently but apparently filing off sharp edges had enabled the bit to touch the wobbly wolf teeth). So with us, the dentist came, removed sharp edges and this unmasked a wolf teeth problem that. Might be worth checking?
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Thanks, I'll check about the teeth but think he was checked by dentist in March.
 
More info guys!

Procedure: Nuclear scintigraphy examination

Summary/findings: following locations:

1. Moderate and focal IRU associated with the RH pastern.

2. Moderate and focal IRU associated with the RH fetlock.

3. Mild and focal IRU associated with the distal hock joint of the RH and this extends distally on the DP view on the RH.

4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.

Horse referred back to initial treating practice, even though the referral was to include a full lameness work-up as explained when owner took horse to referring vets, but anyway. Initial practice then performed a lameness work-up after the bone scan was performed but without the referral vets full report. Lunged on soft surface only, nerve blocks and a lameness locator. Results inconclusive, however initial vets now leaning towards a LH lameness but performed no further investigation, opting for a ridden Bute Trial.

Initial vet believes the spine is secondary and did not warrant investigation as it would NOT cause bucking, as this is behavioural, in their professional opinion. (Why bother with a Bute Trial then, or am I missing something?!).

Owners insurance company obviously will not pay out for behavioural issues, they feel insecure about requesting spinal x-rays from another practice in case they show nothing and they have to foot the majority of the vets bills.

Crystal Ball time everyone.....WWYD????

Thanks!!
 
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How long has the owner had the horse? Did she get it from a dealer or private seller? Was it vetted on purchase? I think current owner may have some claim on the seller, or original vet.
 
stormox said:
How long has the owner had the horse? Did she get it from a dealer or private seller? Was it vetted on purchase? I think current owner may have some claim on the seller, or original vet.
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Owned since last Sept. Bought from Dealers who have since upped and moved from area shortly after selling horse. Yes, vetted and blood sampled, however I can't remember if 2 or 5 stage vetting and now too late to sample bloods.

Please, stormox, if you don't mind, would really appreciate any info or idea suggestions you have as owner is very upset about everything.
 
In your original post you seem to be blaming the trainer that was hired, but it seems like the trouble started before you hired the trainer, so I don't think you can blame them. If it was a 5 stage vetting, bloods should have been taken, I believe they are kept for 6 months but may still be in storage? But I think you should have tried to sort the problem out with the dealer, rather than hire a trainer. How soon after purchase did the problem start? If they were proper dealers surely someone knows where they went? And you would definitely have a claim as the horse wasn't 'fit for purpose' at time of purchase.
 
Illusion100 said:
Owned since last Sept. Bought from Dealers who have since upped and moved from area shortly after selling horse. Yes, vetted and blood sampled, however I can't remember if 2 or 5 stage vetting and now too late to sample bloods.

Please, stormox, if you don't mind, would really appreciate any info or idea suggestions you have as owner is very upset about everything.
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I hadn't realised it had been so long, the stay at the trainers was several months no wonder he was happy!!!

As is so often the case everything is done too late or in response to whatever the horse does next, it would have made sense to do the bloods as soon as it showed the initial behaviour.
I don't think you are likely to have any comeback on the vet, it is still not showing to be unsound as such, any behavioural issues could have been well hidden by the sellers, much as the trainer has managed, any comeback on the dealers will probably prove expensive it all should have been started early on, it may be worth trying Trading Standards but the dealer is likely to turn round and say it was fine when it was vetted, what has been going on in the past 10 months, it could have been injured traveling.

As for what the owner actually does next, the referral vets have not help much just found possible sites of slight concern but then failed to do any further diagnostics, the first vets think the back is not a problem and find an issue on the near hind, the scan found something on off hind, so very murky and unhelpful.
I think the owner needs to consider how far she wants to take this, if the insurance will not pay out, nothing physical is found that can be treated, she must have spent ££££sss on an unrideable horse that she cannot feel much for having barely dealt with it, I am not one to say this lightly but I would consider cutting my loses and having it pts or just turning it away for a year and see what it looks like when it comes back in but that may prevent her being able to move on with her life.
 
stormox said:
In your original post you seem to be blaming the trainer that was hired, but it seems like the trouble started before you hired the trainer, so I don't think you can blame them. If it was a 5 stage vetting, bloods should have been taken, I believe they are kept for 6 months but may still be in storage? But I think you should have tried to sort the problem out with the dealer, rather than hire a trainer. How soon after purchase did the problem start? If they were proper dealers surely someone knows where they went? And you would definitely have a claim as the horse wasn't 'fit for purpose' at time of purchase.
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Hi,

This is not my horse, it is a friends horse. I am simply trying to assist them with a difficult situation.

Blood sampling is not a requirement of a 5 stage vetting, just as x-rays aren't. Blood samples are only stored for 6 months. However, as said before this horse was b/sampled at vetting.

The owner did try to sort the issue out with the dealer. They ignored phonecalls, letters and visits to their property, then relocated. Since this happened, through a lot of digging, this is a normal trend for those dealers, they relocate and change their name.

A trainer should resolve issues (that's what they are paid for), however they did not/could not. At no point did they express any significant problem with the horse to the owner and walked away after witnessing the bucking first hand with the owner, saying they had another rider (other livery) to train it for owner!

The problem started in March this year. Last Sept, the day the horse moved to owners livery yard, the horse got over-excited when unloaded and stood on owners foot, causing a nasty fracture involving approx. 6 months recovery. (For owner, not horse!). When re: introduced to ridden work in March, horse threw 4 different riders.

Yes, personally I am angry with Trainer., they didn't do their job.
 
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be positive said:
I hadn't realised it had been so long, the stay at the trainers was several months no wonder he was happy!!!

As is so often the case everything is done too late or in response to whatever the horse does next, it would have made sense to do the bloods as soon as it showed the initial behaviour.
I don't think you are likely to have any comeback on the vet, it is still not showing to be unsound as such, any behavioural issues could have been well hidden by the sellers, much as the trainer has managed, any comeback on the dealers will probably prove expensive it all should have been started early on, it may be worth trying Trading Standards but the dealer is likely to turn round and say it was fine when it was vetted, what has been going on in the past 10 months, it could have been injured traveling.

As for what the owner actually does next, the referral vets have not help much just found possible sites of slight concern but then failed to do any further diagnostics, the first vets think the back is not a problem and find an issue on the near hind, the scan found something on off hind, so very murky and unhelpful.
I think the owner needs to consider how far she wants to take this, if the insurance will not pay out, nothing physical is found that can be treated, she must have spent ££££sss on an unrideable horse that she cannot feel much for having barely dealt with it, I am not one to say this lightly but I would consider cutting my loses and having it pts or just turning it away for a year and see what it looks like when it comes back in but that may prevent her being able to move on with her life.
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Was at trainers for 4 weeks. Owner noted the horse anxious to be mounted when they went to ride horse at trainers yard but trainer said not a problem (described in more detail in earlier posts). I do not understand statement of 'no wonder he was happy' at trainers yard in comparison to 'home'?

Yes, this horse may well be PTS. Very sad situation all round.
 
If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.
 
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