Horse still bucking WWYD?

I have just seen your last post where it now appears the horse was turned away for 6 months, it read as if it had bucked riders off back in Sept then spent a long while with the trainer, my comment about being happy was the trainer getting paid for months of work, not the horse being happy.

It is a sad case all round, the poor owner has been seriously injured not once but twice, has spent money trying to sort out a horse that probably has a deep rooted problem, more than likely the back but the chances are it is chronic, that may be why it ended up at the dealers, whatever is done now may be too late to work, certainly the current owner will be unlikely to want to ride it again.
 
be positive said:
I have just seen your last post where it now appears the horse was turned away for 6 months, it read as if it had bucked riders off back in Sept then spent a long while with the trainer, my comment about being happy was the trainer getting paid for months of work, not the horse being happy.

It is a sad case all round, the poor owner has been seriously injured not once but twice, has spent money trying to sort out a horse that probably has a deep rooted problem, more than likely the back but the chances are it is chronic, that may be why it ended up at the dealers, whatever is done now may be too late to work, certainly the current owner will be unlikely to want to ride it again.
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Sorry, I misread what you meant! Apologies.

Poor horse is 6, quite tragic really. What gets me most is horse is really nice person and very sensible for his age. Yes, horse had around 6 months off.

No, the owner will never ride this horse again. I will be riding horse for them during the bute trial, although having already ridden the horse I am extremely unhappy about doing so as the horse is abnormally unresponsive on the right rein. I do not believe this horse is sound in the spine but vets want ridden bute trial, and so, they shall have one, at the horses expense. Very sad.
 
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ester said:
If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.
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Owner being p****d about by vets, imo. Agree with you though and will forward your opinion to owner.
 
ester said:
If I were the owner I would go back to the vets that did the bone scan and question them on treatment options if the back issue was the problem. On the basis that they are the 'experts' over the referring practice and if they thought it significant enough to cause bucking then it should have been worked up, regardless of the referring practices opinions.
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That is what I would do!

OP, I don't think any-one should ride this horse until the vets mentioned above have had their say, for your own safety and the horse's well-being. I can't see that bute will do any good, it's an anti-inflammatory, so works on soft-tissue not bone, and it's not powerful enough to mask the kind of pain that it sounds as if this horse is in.
 
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Illusion100 said:
4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.


…………

Crystal Ball time everyone.....WWYD????

Thanks!!
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I'd take the horse back to this vet for back xrays which can be claimed on the insurance, and treat for the kissing spines they are almost certainly going to find.

Your client's vets seem to me to be on the verge of a negligence claim. They have a diagnosis of something which does not respond to a bute trial and yet they prescribe a Bute trial. Poor horse :(
 
Pearlsasinger said:
That is what I would do!

OP, I don't think any-one should ride this horse until the vets mentioned above have had their say, for your own safety and the horse's well-being. I can't see that bute will do any good, it's an anti-inflammatory, so works on soft-tissue not bone, and it's not powerful enough to mask the kind of pain that it sounds as if this horse is in.
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I don't think it's safe for me or positive for the horses physical and mental wellbeing for horse to be ridden straightaway either. I'd much prefer for the vet that recommended the bute trial to ride horse for me in the interim......

I've expressed to owner that I will take the time it needs to re train horses association with being tacked/mounting block/initial weight placements in stirrup and over back before I get on. If I'm not happy with horses responses, I'm not getting on.

If horse happy with this process, I will only work initially in walk and if I'm not happy about abnormal responses to the aids, I will be getting off. I feel this horse has spinal issues and will not force it to tolerate pain but I do wish to go down this process, ride it like a Novice rider and determine if this bucking is physical or behavioural.
 
cptrayes said:
I'd take the horse back to this vet for back xrays which can be claimed on the insurance, and treat for the kissing spines they are almost certainly going to find.

Your client's vets seem to me to be on the verge of a negligence claim. They have a diagnosis of something which does not respond to a bute trial and yet they prescribe a Bute trial. Poor horse :(
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Completely agree.

The only concern I have is if the x-rays show 'nothing significant' ( as any diagnostic image is only as good as the person that reads it) the owner will end up footing the VFs. Or am I being paranoid?
 
Illusion100 said:
Completely agree.

The only concern I have is if the x-rays show 'nothing significant' ( as any diagnostic image is only as good as the person that reads it) the owner will end up footing the VFs. Or am I being paranoid?
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As long as the vet commissions the x rays, the insurance will pay even if they show nothing.

Ditto Faracat, please don't ride this horse, he could kill you :(
 
4. Moderate coalescing IRU along the dorsal spinous processes of the thoracolumbar spine and some mild IRU associated with caudal thoracic vertebral bodies.

Bone scan vet stated the spinal issue would easily be enough to warrant bucking under saddle.
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Isn't this plus the injury to the owner enough to make you put your own safety first?
 
If a ridden bute trial is not carried out, which is the vets decision, do you guys believe a diff vet practise would carry out spinal x-rays without repeating full lameness work-up etc?

Thanks for your concern everyone, it's very touching. :) I promise I will not ride the horse until bone scan vet has been interrogated and any further diagnostics/treatments carried out/horse physically/mentally safe to ride!
 
Illusion100 said:
Could I just ask why? I appreciate this comes across as a stupid question but would appreciate your reasons.

I just want to try and help with the right thing here for both horse and owner.
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You could be bucked off, break your back and never walk again.

You could be bucked off, break your neck and die.

The horse is in pain and does not deserve to be put in more pain by a stupid vet who is not listening to a vet who has better information that the horse is in pain.
 
Illusion100 said:
If a ridden bute trial is not carried out, which is the vets decision, do you guys believe a diff vet practise would carry out spinal x-rays without repeating full lameness work-up etc?

Thanks for your concern everyone, it's very touching. :) I promise I will not ride the horse until bone scan vet has been interrogated and any further diagnostics/treatments carried out/horse physically/mentally safe to ride!
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Absolutely yes!

I can give you the name of two vet practices near me who would, on the basis of what you have told us, x ray the horse immediately.
 
I think the horse needs to go back to the Vet who did the bone scan if possible.

I'm sure that CPT has mentioned (please correct me if I'm wrong) that bute trials are ineffective for back pain.

It's all very well the other Vet wanting a ridden bute trial, but they aren't the one getting on the horse and risking their life. Sometimes you do have to stand up to Vets and say 'no, what else can be done?' or change Vets.
 
Faracat said:
Isn't this plus the injury to the owner enough to make you put your own safety first?
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I appreciate what you are saying, thank you! Problem is initial vets have investigated the moderate IRU in the RH, found nothing of significance and have expressed as they have found nothing in the RH there is no reason to investigate the moderate spinal IRU.

They have also disagreed that the back is the primary source of pain and would not cause the bucking, that is behavioural.

Rock and a hard place?!
 
cptrayes said:
You could be bucked off, break your back and never walk again.

You could be bucked off, break your neck and die.

The horse is in pain and does not deserve to be put in more pain by a stupid vet who is not listening to a vet who has better information that the horse is in pain.
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Sounds strange but I was more concerned that riding would cause the horse damage!

I just don't get why the horse apparently did not buck once during the 4 weeks with trainer but bucked after returning home? Ridden by trainer at home yard day horse came back, ridden by owner day after (no bucking), horse had next day off, then home lesson with trainer the next day owner, bucked off as soon as bum in saddle?

The vet that did bone can had no interest in investigating spine further, sent horse back to initial vets to do a lameness work-up they were supposed to do before the performed the bone scan?

My brain is melting.....
 
Some people have a way of riding that is less painful for the horse, or the horse is so full of adrenaline that it doesn't feel the pain so much, or it's more frightened of that rider than the pain, or something else...

It's not unusual for horses with physical problems to be different at shows compared with home.
 
Faracat said:
Just so you know, not walking again isn't the worst thing about a spinal injury at all.
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Previously broken my back due to rotational fall xc, due to the fracture, spinal canal stenosis set in to the point of bilateral leg paralysis. Major surgery required and couldn't be more thankful over the result. To me, not being able to walk was the worst thing. I think I am too wimpish to even ask what is worse!
 
Faracat said:
Some people have a way of riding that is less painful for the horse, or the horse is so full of adrenaline that it doesn't feel the pain so much, or it's more frightened of that rider than the pain, or something else...

It's not unusual for horses with physical problems to be different at shows compared with home.
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Have you any suggestions as to how to convince the vets of this? I really think the horse is in pain.
 
If you damage the spinal cord so you get loo problems (double incontinence) and the associated loss of dignity, being in a wheelchair pales into insignificance.

I'm honestly shocked that you've had a serious injury previously and still thought about riding that horse.

ETA - just tell the Vet that no-one is willing to ride it - full stop and that they need to come up with another way forward.
 
Faracat said:
If you damage the spinal cord so you get loo problems (double incontinence) and the associated loss of dignity, being in a wheelchair pales into insignificance.

I'm honestly shocked that you've had a serious injury previously and still thought about riding that horse.

ETA - just tell the Vet that no-one is willing to ride it - full stop and that they need to come up with another way forward.
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I never did have any loo problems whatsoever even though the stenosis was crushing my spinal cord to 1/4 of it's original size, apparently this was very unusual however. Previous doctors failed to diagnose the condition because I had no loo problems! Thank goodness for the specialist.

I've had a lot of nasty injuries, I take it as part and parcel of horses and should perhaps seek mental help, although I doubt they could do anything for me.

Would the insurance company not refuse to pay if the client refused to follow the vet advice and recommended course of action?
 
If the bone scan vets will not take on the case further I would transfer to an alternative practice, and get them to request all of the previous notes and reports and investigate from there. This happens with small animals all the time! and doesn't usually effect the insurance situation. You are allowed to disagree with what the vet says and go elsewhere. I wouldn't try and convince the current vet they are wrong/bute trial is wrong as they don't always like being told you disagree and I wouldn't trust them to work up the back issue properly and risk proving themselves wrong.
 
Illusion100 said:
Sounds strange but I was more concerned that riding would cause the horse damage!

I just don't get why the horse apparently did not buck once during the 4 weeks with trainer but bucked after returning home? Ridden by trainer at home yard day horse came back, ridden by owner day after (no bucking), horse had next day off, then home lesson with trainer the next day owner, bucked off as soon as bum in saddle?

The vet that did bone can had no interest in investigating spine further, sent horse back to initial vets to do a lameness work-up they were supposed to do before the performed the bone scan?

My brain is melting.....
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That sounds like medication wearing off to me. But it could also just have been a very dominant rider who could temporarily bully the horse into submission and it took the horse a couple of days to work it out.

Did the weather change? My kissing spines horse was very different in cold weather. Maybe the trainer heated him up with infra red before he rode?
 
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