Horse still bucking WWYD?

Just a thought. One of mine recently had a full set of x rays on an 8/10 lameness in one foot. X rays inconclusive and the horse was unable to travel as so lame. had a thermal image done which highlighted hot spots, whilst it does not give a diagnosis it does highlight relative areas of heat, in this case pinpointing a pedal bone fracture which has now been successfully treated. Horse sound and back in normal shoes. Cost £59 with report. maybe this might highlight the relative areas of heat and therefore which is likely to be causing the most problem, my vet was sceptical until the red hot area was highlighted. I don't think it will show internal issues such as ulcers or liver problems though.
 
smellsofhorse said:
Was horses vetted and ridden, tested etc before purchase?

Did new owner actually see horse being ridden by trainer?

Have all obvious tack, teeth, back lameness etc been checked?
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Horse tried twice by owner and vetted but forgot to ask if 2 or 5.

Owner went and rode horse several times during it's time at trainers yard.

Tack checked (several times), teeth checked and back checked by physio who also treated the horse twice at trainers yard, physio had no concerns.
 
old hand said:
Just a thought. One of mine recently had a full set of x rays on an 8/10 lameness in one foot. X rays inconclusive and the horse was unable to travel as so lame. had a thermal image done which highlighted hot spots, whilst it does not give a diagnosis it does highlight relative areas of heat, in this case pinpointing a pedal bone fracture which has now been successfully treated. Horse sound and back in normal shoes. Cost £59 with report. maybe this might highlight the relative areas of heat and therefore which is likely to be causing the most problem, my vet was sceptical until the red hot area was highlighted. I don't think it will show internal issues such as ulcers or liver problems though.
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Horse has had thermo-imaging done, white spot from withers radiating down back. Vets dismissed this.

So glad to hear your horse is ok. OUCH!
 
Illusion100 said:
Goldenstar said:
Wow, you put a lot of hard work and effort into these horses, they were very fortunate. Kudos!

I can't force the owner to do anything, all I can do is forward all of the advice and experience you guys have given and hope the right decisions are made re: x-rays.

If I decide to get on this horse, it will be a carefully deliberated decision, if I get the lightest indication that the horse is tense or uncomfortable being tacked or when presented to mounting block, or weight placed in stirrup I will not get on. If I don't feel on 'top form' on that day, I won't even bother tacking horse up. I am not saying I will get on the horse but I am that incurably stupid, there is a chance. There is no cure for my stupidity.
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if there was nothing wrong with our girl following vet checks she was going to be sent to a pro as she had my sister off so many times, it might be wise to look at one of those backing dummy thingys.....don't know the name, so he and freak out with a weight on his back with out hurting any one.....if his xrays come back clear.
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Slightlyconfused said:
Illusion100 said:
if there was nothing wrong with our girl following vet checks she was going to be sent to a pro as she had my sister off so many times, it might be wise to look at one of those backing dummy thingys.....don't know the name, so he and freak out with a weight on his back with out hurting any one.....if his xrays come back clear.
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I've always wanted one of those backing dummy thingys too but then I feel it would be having more fun than I would. ;)
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Illusion 100, if you do get on this horse, why do everything as its always been done- mounting block, foot in stirrup..... why not treat it like an unbroken horse, get someone to leg you over, lay over while its led around guage reaction. You can slip off easily then if it starts bucking and wont get hurt, or can gradually wriggle your right leg over if all is going well?
 
stormox said:
Illusion 100, if you do get on this horse, why do everything as its always been done- mounting block, foot in stirrup..... why not treat it like an unbroken horse, get someone to leg you over, lay over while its led around guage reaction. You can slip off easily then if it starts bucking and wont get hurt, or can gradually wriggle your right leg over if all is going well?
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Leaning over and having someone lead would be initially be another safety precaution, before the stirrup exercise, IF I do decide to get on.

I would have someone leg me up, however I am the worst most useless person at getting a leg up in the world, ever. I don't know why I cannot carry out this simple task, mount from ground, check, mounting block, check, leg up, useless! Apparently it's comical, all my co-ordination goes out the window. Even calm, experienced horses have a look of 'what just happened?'
 
Illusion100 said:
Leaning over and having someone lead would be initially be another safety precaution, before the stirrup exercise, IF I do decide to get on.

I would have someone leg me up, however I am the worst most useless person at getting a leg up in the world, ever. I don't know why I cannot carry out this simple task, mount from ground, check, mounting block, check, leg up, useless! Apparently it's comical, all my co-ordination goes out the window. Even calm, experienced horses have a look of 'what just happened?'
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I'm a tit with a leg up too, with me it's total lack of coordination as in when to bounce when to jump, end doing opposite to the giver of said leg up and landing in a weird heap on horse, not recommended for a nervy mounter!
 
Oh can I join the TWALU club??? I thought it was just me!

When my most recent horse was backed for me I said I don't care if he canters but you must be able to mount from the stirrup!!
 
cptrayes said:
Oh can I join the TWALU club??? I thought it was just me!

When my most recent horse was backed for me I said I don't care if he canters but you must be able to mount from the stirrup!!
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You can only join this elite club if you are TRULY awful at it! If people don't burst out laughing at you or stand there shaking their heads in bewilderment, you don't qualify!

I don't want anybody scamming a membership... ;)
 
Oh I'm hopeless! I still have a damaged back from where I mistimed getting on a newly broken horse and touched its hip bone! People truly fall around when I have a leg up - me, the person trying to leg me up, anyone standing too close :D
 
Im not good either ...1-2-3 they push and I don't jump, else I jump and they don't push!! worst thing was when I got a good leg up- but the horse peed off when I was almost in the saddle,I went with it but the legger kept a fierce grip on my leg :( splat
 
cptrayes said:
Oh I'm hopeless! I still have a damaged back from where I mistimed getting on a newly broken horse and touched its hip bone! People truly fall around when I have a leg up - me, the person trying to leg me up, anyone standing too close :D
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Ok, you can join, you are suitably diabolical at leg ups to qualify! lol!

Because I'm quite little I always get 'over legged-up', nearly resulting in me falling off other side of horse head first, so I try to counter-act this predicament and end result looks like someone trying to shove a reluctant luggage bag into the plane over-head baggage locker.....
 
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Illusion100 said:
Because I'm quite little I always get 'over legged-up', nearly resulting in me falling off other side of horse head first, so I try to counter-act this predicament and end result looks like someone trying to shove a reluctant luggage bag into the plane over-head baggage locker.....
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:D :D :D
 
stormox said:
Im not good either ...1-2-3 they push and I don't jump, else I jump and they don't push!! worst thing was when I got a good leg up- but the horse peed off when I was almost in the saddle,I went with it but the legger kept a fierce grip on my leg :( splat
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Oh dear! The legger-upper is officially sacked!

I apologise but the way you've described it is very funny, however I do hope you were ok!
 
Nothing to add regarding treatment. But if the vets are pushing for the horse to be ridden, could you not hire an ardall safety rider and lunge or long rein the horse? Not sure if it weighs the same as a person, but better to hurt a dummy than yourself.
 
Quick update!

Horse still on bute trial. Now happy to be bridled, saddled, led to mounting block but still anxious about weight on back and reins being gathered.

Long reined horse today and was not happy about rein contact, anxious and resistant to right contact, if allowed to escalate things would have become messy.

Owner looking to hire a 'dummy'.
 
Illusion100 said:
Quick update!

Horse still on bute trial. Now happy to be bridled, saddled, led to mounting block but still anxious about weight on back and reins being gathered.

Long reined horse today and was not happy about rein contact, anxious and resistant to right contact, if allowed to escalate things would have become messy.

Owner looking to hire a 'dummy'.
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Why is anyone looking to hire a dummy?

The horse has responded partially to a Bute trial and is unhappy without a rider on board.

Tell the owners to find a vet who will find the pain, poor horse :(
 
I agree, partial improvement is a result take the horse off the bute and I bet you the reaction will get worse and find a decent vet to help .
Has any examined this horse head and jaw and neck yet .
Finally you can't always get an answer , I sadly PTS one of these before someone squashed .
 
No further diagnostics done to date.

I can only offer my opinion to Owner. After a small lap of arena on long lines, stated I felt horse was unhappy and anxious. The bridle/saddle has come about well with patient training but the horse is not happy with any further pressure.

I think the dummy may be used to prove a point to Vet. Vet insistent on bute trial and I suppose better a dummy than a person.

Treating Vet thinks behavioural. I don't.

I cannot dictate to Owner on what to do, only help if and when I can.

Really hope for x-rays!
 
Update:

Bute trial over, vet visit today. Owner at work so just vet and I. They asked how bute trial went, I said not great. Vet immediately claimed that that meant the bucking etc was behavioural. I disagreed. Trot up and lunge later, vets opinion was they have no further diagnostics they can do, horse not showing anything that would bother them and only answer is to send horse to somewhere like Newmarket for MRI etc, which will cost more than the horse is insured for and they probably won't find anything. I didn't suggest x-rays, vet didn't mention them but apparently they believe x-rays aren't viable but bone scan and MRI are!

They admitted they hadn't discussed the horse with the referral practice that performed bone scan (that vet stated to owner that the bone scan highlighted back issue that would be enough to warrant bucking), so owner getting in contact with them next and see what they suggest as both practices appear to have a different view on bone scan report. If referral practise changes their story re: highlighted area NOT enough to warrant bucking, then I believe the plan is to get a second opinion and x-rays.

I don't understand why current vet does not want to carry out some x-rays, they get paid for them after all! Very unusual.....
 
I still don't understand why they didn't xray after the bone scan showed an area of concern in the back, the bone scan is not definitive just a guide to where requires further investigation, as you say the vet gets paid whether he finds anything or not, most will do a few simple xrays without all this drama, maybe they prefer the diagnosis of behavioural as they can walk away without having to do any more.
I am also unsure why they would refer for MRI, it is not really suitable for this type of issue, it can only see a tiny area and you would expect the horse to have been xrayed first, MRI is extremely expensive compared with the cost of xrays.
 
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be positive said:
I still don't understand why they didn't xray after the bone scan showed an area of concern in the back, the bone scan is not definitive just a guide to where requires further investigation, as you say the vet gets paid whether he finds anything or not, most will do a few simple xrays without all this drama, maybe they prefer the diagnosis of behavioural as they can walk away without having to do any more.
I am also unsure why they would refer for MRI, it is not really suitable for this type of issue, it can only see a tiny area and you would expect the horse to have been xrayed first, MRI is extremely expensive compared with the cost of xrays.
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Me neither, when I took horse up to referral vets they said to owner and myself they had decided to swop original idea, do bone scan first and then investigate anything that it highlights. After bone scan, next thing was referral vets said was, nope going back to original vets for them to do it instead. These vets did inconclusive hindlimb lameness work-up and recommended bute trial.

The 'reason' being if the bone scan highlighted area in LH but they didn't find anything meant no point investigating the back, bucking therefore behavioural and will prove this by doing a bute trial. If horse difficult on bute (2 sachets per day) then nothing physically wrong with horse. And that was certainly what vet was sticking to again today.

What?????!!!!!.............................

It was almost as if vet trying to dissuade against further diagnostics. This is just so odd as vets do seem to enjoy extracting as much money as they can!

does sense it not make
 
It makes absolutely no sense, a bute trial is limited and hardly scientific, just because the hind limb work up was inconclusive does not mean the bone scan was a waste of time and money, or does it prove exactly that!

I thought bute trials were not that conclusive for back pain and still cannot work out why they don't want to xray, as you say they are usually more than happy to run diagnostics until the insurance runs out.
 
I have both good and no result at all from bute trials on back pain .
But it's the first thing you taught about bute trials is that if they can prove a horse has pain but they can't prove a horse has no pain .
It's difficult for OP it's not her horse she can only advise the owner and if the owner trusts the vet there's nothing OP can do but stay safe and try to be a advocate for the horse .
 
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