Horse supplements - Are we being conned?!

[Karenchol]

There are 2 common problems .....

Firstly, because of the narrow safety margin of Selenium, very few feed/supplement companies will recommend or include ,more than about 1mg in their products, in case there are other sources in the diet. A horse in medium to hard work can require around 3mg/day....so depending on the hay/grass/other parts of the diet, some may become deficient, but others may have plenty.

Secondly : there are some horses who simply don't absorb/utilise things such as vit E/selenium, and thus need more....it is individual.

Eg I had two horses...on the same diet/hay/grass and workload....one was selenium deficient....he responded well to supplementation at 3mg/day...his vitamin e levels were fine
...the other horse had a normal selenium level, but was very deficient in Vit E, the only form of which he could utilise being Nano-E.
Both horses had regular blood tests to ensure supplementation levels were correct.

Absolutely. I wish I’d known 7yrs ago what I’ve learnt in the last few days. Or met you!!! I’d have had their levels tested in the beginning and found an independent nutritionist then too. I’m horrified it isn’t the first thought from vets, when all else has failed to yield results. Especially in areas low with selenium where horses are showing muscular issues. As you have said, it isn’t straight forward, as all horses are individual too.

 

[honetpot]

I have never owned a horse that 'needed' a supplement, like most adult humans who eat a normal diet do not need a food supplement, and when I have needed a vit and mineral supplement,I have had them prescribed by a docter, or gone to a pharmacy and read the label, you can look online for what is dose recommemded.
The problem with food supplements is they are not controlled like medicines, they are foods, so they do not have to prove anything, just do no harm, even if in some circumstances they can do.
Most minerals and vits are very cheap in bulk, and looking at the amount sold with a huge profit ,no feed coompany is going to tell you that in most cases they are not needed.
Your concerned have a blood test, take a vets advice, if you want to be clued up there enough papers online to educate yourself as to what and how much you should be giving, and buy the cheapest form, from a company that gives you the amounts per gram of product.

 

[Santa’s Irish draught]

Very interesting I think a lot of people use supplements as bandaid to not investigate health conditions or to treat them. Everyone has their horse on a joint supplement but won’t get them joint injections, lung conditions not diagnosed or treated by a vet yet some people spend thousands on respiratory supplements a year. The only thing I think is okay is balancers because that stops people feeling very good doers high calorie feeds. Any supplements that proven is banned or on prescription only so technically we feeding our horses experimental supplements.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Everyone has their horse on a joint supplement but won’t get them joint injections, lung conditions not diagnosed or treated by a vet yet some people spend thousands on respiratory supplements a year

Ahem. By no means ‘everyone’ does this.

Wrt supplementing with selenium, it is drummed into us owners that excess selenium is toxic so most readily available supplements or balancers only contain a low level of selenium.

 

[quizzie]

Absolutely. I wish I’d known 7yrs ago what I’ve learnt in the last few days. Or met you!!! I’d have had their levels tested in the beginning and found an independent nutritionist then too. I’m horrified it isn’t the first thought from vets, when all else has failed to yield results. Especially in areas low with selenium where horses are showing muscular issues. As you have said, it isn’t straight forward, as all horses are individual too.

Thank you for the thought!

There are further levels of problems which give at least a partial answer to your comments above:

...Many horses cope fine with sub-optimal levels of Vit E/Selenium, it is normally only when performance horses are asked to work significantly harder that a "loss of performance" shows up, so specialist equine vets who are regularly dealing with performance horses are more likely to consider them an issue.

...The test for Vit E is now known to require careful handling of the sample, otherwise it can result in a false reading, so some vets may consider it an unreliable test ( as it used to be,) but is improved now (subject to light exposure/temperature control of the sample etc etc)

...The test for selenium doesn't measures selenium itself ( as that is also a bit unreliable), but is a derivation of measuring an enzyme associated with selenium. (GSHpx)

...Plus the "normal" ranges are still being adjusted as more information about performance horse requirements is scrutinised.

So its not as simple as not looking for Vit E/Sel deficiencies...with the additional caveat that all horses are different.

 

[NocturneNoel]

The common sense test needs to be applied at some point. Obviously when you keep horses domesticated and feed them the same forage each day with limited species of grasses, this is not going to provide the same variety of nutrients which they could forage in the wild.

Similar to how the hunter gatherer diet provided greater nutrients to humans than diets based on farming and cultivation (until comparatively very recently).

For optimum health this gap ought to be plugged and supplementation is the easiest way to do so. Choosing supplements which do so effectively is another matter, but blanket statements about supplements being a waste of cash is throwing the baby out with the bath water imo.

 

[Elno]

I have never owned a horse that 'needed' a supplement, like most adult humans who eat a normal diet do not need a food supplement, and when I have needed a vit and mineral supplement,I have had them prescribed by a docter, or gone to a pharmacy and read the label, you can look online for what is dose recommemded.
The problem with food supplements is they are not controlled like medicines, they are foods, so they do not have to prove anything, just do no harm, even if in some circumstances they can do.
Most minerals and vits are very cheap in bulk, and looking at the amount sold with a huge profit ,no feed coompany is going to tell you that in most cases they are not needed.
Your concerned have a blood test, take a vets advice, if you want to be clued up there enough papers online to educate yourself as to what and how much you should be giving, and buy the cheapest form, from a company that gives you the amounts per gram of product.

This, this, this a billion times over. It should be printed in large letters and set up in every damn stable.

As someone medically trained I cannot for the life of me understand why people would rather buy devils claw, boswellia, turmeric etc instead of Bute, or reach for a joint supplement first instead of having the vet out for lameness evaluation and possibly joint injections. There is, at absolute best, some very, very small effect shown with supplements in peer reviewed studies, and most of them are in vitro, and would need to be given in very large amounts (more than is possible to feed to a horse) even to have a potential, small effect.

Likewise, I don't understand why, if you have a vitamin or mineraler deficiency confirmed by blood tests, would still feed a balancer with miniscule amounts of the trace element you need to substitute??? Make the vet prescribe you, like in this particular case, selenium and make sure to ask how and when, and which amount to feed it, and then follow up with regular blood tests. That is how you do it correctly.

 

[paddy555]

Your concerned have a blood test, take a vets advice,t.

This, this, this a billion times over. It should be printed in large letters and set up in every damn stable.



Likewise, I don't understand why, if you have a vitamin or mineraler deficiency confirmed by blood tests, would still feed a balancer with miniscule amounts of the trace element you need to substitute??? Make the vet prescribe you, like in this particular case, selenium and make sure to ask how and when, and which amount to feed it, and then follow up with regular blood tests. That is how you do it correctly.

I'm afraid that I would have it printed in large letters on every horse vet's walls that if I cannot find the solution to a problem it may be a deficiency and I will suggest blood testing to a client.

HP you say have a blood test. How do you know what to ask them to test for? It seems in this post that OP didn't. Probably never occurred to them. How could they ask for something they didn't know. There are many horse owners who have no idea about se or vit E. People on here do because we have covered it so many times.


Exactly the same happened to me but with vit e. At the time I had no idea so couldn't request a vit e blood test as I didn't know it was even a possibility.
My vet never suggested either a blood test nor low vit E could even be a possibility. My lad spent 4 days in an equine clinic and not a murmur about vit e or vit e blood testing from them either.

If I had taken vet's advice he would have been dead. If google hadn't existed I would have never made any progress.

As it was when he was being blood tested and CK and AST simply wouldn't go down there was no suggestion from the vet although this was clearly a muscle problem. Finally I asked the vet what is the problem when AST and CK won't reduce and they didn't know the answer. I sent them off to ring round the vet schools and find out.
In the meantime I went onto google. Googled horse why won't CK and AST go down. It took me to MSU. My blood went cold reading it and by the following evening the vit E oil had arrived and the horse was on it. 3 days later he was a different animal and that continued back to normality.
As SEL said earlier when they get so far down it takes time and effort to get them back up again. (or words to that effect)

So I had to ask google what several vets hadn't told me. I doubt they were being difficult, I suspect it had never occurred to them.

 

[Elno]

I'm afraid that I would have it printed in large letters on every horse vet's walls that if I cannot find the solution to a problem it may be a deficiency and I will suggest blood testing to a client.

HP you say have a blood test. How do you know what to ask them to test for? It seems in this post that OP didn't. Probably never occurred to them. How could they ask for something they didn't know. There are many horse owners who have no idea about se or vit E. People on here do because we have covered it so many times.


Exactly the same happened to me but with vit e. At the time I had no idea so couldn't request a vit e blood test as I didn't know it was even a possibility.
My vet never suggested either a blood test nor low vit E could even be a possibility. My lad spent 4 days in an equine clinic and not a murmur about vit e or vit e blood testing from them either.

If I had taken vet's advice he would have been dead. If google hadn't existed I would have never made any progress.

As it was when he was being blood tested and CK and AST simply wouldn't go down there was no suggestion from the vet although this was clearly a muscle problem. Finally I asked the vet what is the problem when AST and CK won't reduce and they didn't know the answer. I sent them off to ring round the vet schools and find out.
In the meantime I went onto google. Googled horse why won't CK and AST go down. It took me to MSU. My blood went cold reading it and by the following evening the vit E oil had arrived and the horse was on it. 3 days later he was a different animal and that continued back to normality.
As SEL said earlier when they get so far down it takes time and effort to get them back up again. (or words to that effect)

So I had to ask google what several vets hadn't told me. I doubt they were being difficult, I suspect it had never occurred to them.

Hm fair question. When we've had horses in the stable with muscular problems selenium was one of the things tested for Strange that vets in the UK don't seem to do it regularly then, considering you guys also have problems with selenium deficiency.

 

[SEL]

Hm fair question. When we've had horses in the stable with muscular problems selenium was one of the things tested for Strange that vets in the UK don't seem to do it regularly then, considering you guys also have problems with selenium deficiency.

I had to ask.

Pony presented very lethargic with elevated AST, but nothing else in bloods. Se & E were at my request.

She was actually normal range but I've found she needs E supplementing during winter beyond her normal balancer. I generally haven't found uk vets hugely knowledgeable on potential nutrient deficiencies. One of my neighbours battled mud fever (in the summer) with her horses and ran up huge vet bills. We're very low in copper too and it was my suggestion she supplement that - both horses improved quickly.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Very interesting I think a lot of people use supplements as bandaid to not investigate health conditions or to treat them. Everyone has their horse on a joint supplement but won’t get them joint injections, lung conditions not diagnosed or treated by a vet yet some people spend thousands on respiratory supplements a year. The only thing I think is okay is balancers because that stops people feeling very good doers high calorie feeds. Any supplements that proven is banned or on prescription only so technically we feeding our horses experimental supplements.

I don't get my horse's hock injected & he's fed a joint supplement. It's quite possible to do both & get a vet involved He was was fully investigated by a vet & I decided given he has EMS, I didn't want to inject due to associated risks. Instead we started him on a small dose of prescribed NSAID and worked closely with physiotherapists and biomechanical trainer to re-hab him and build strength and correct posture to see how we got on - he didn't have awful posture before but it's certainly improved with specialist help.

He's mainly hacked (as we both enjoy it more than schooling) so limited artificial surfaces and circles but he does lots of hills, certainly doesn't plod and goes for miles - he's endurance fit, most of the time.

He's off the NSAID now but vet was in full support of our plan and was the one that recommended a joint supplement. They are thrilled with how well he's done.

He's on other supplements too (a vit & mineral as I soak hay and he's on limited grazing, Vitamin E and a pre/pro biotic) vet - and other para professionals - are again, aware and in support of it. So it's not an either vet/or supplement scenario for us.

 

[Santa’s Irish draught]

I don't get my horse's hock injected & he's fed a joint supplement. It's quite possible to do both & get a vet involved He was was fully investigated by a vet & I decided given he has EMS, I didn't want to inject due to associated risks. Instead we started him on a small dose of prescribed NSAID and worked closely with physiotherapists and biomechanical trainer to re-hab him and build strength and correct posture to see how we got on - he didn't have awful posture before but it's certainly improved with specialist help.

He's mainly hacked (as we both enjoy it more than schooling) so limited artificial surfaces and circles but he does lots of hills, certainly doesn't plod and goes for miles - he's endurance fit, most of the time.

He's off the NSAID now but vet was in full support of our plan and was the one that recommended a joint supplement. They are thrilled with how well he's done.

He's on other supplements too (a vit & mineral as I soak hay and he's on limited grazing, Vitamin E and a pre/pro biotic) vet - and other para professionals - are again, aware and in support of it. So it's not an either vet/or supplement scenario for us.

I was saying in general I certainly wasn’t talking about you . I don’t even now you or your horses so don’t know why you think I was talking about you, I don’t live in the uk anyway . I was actually talking about the people who ride lame horse around and refuse to get the vet and they think joint supplement will fix everything.

 

[MuddyMonster]

I was saying in general I certainly wasn’t talking about you . I don’t even now you or your horses so don’t know why you think I was talking about you, I don’t live in the uk anyway . I was actually talking about the people who ride lame horse around and refuse to get the vet and they think joint supplement will fix everything.

I didn't for a second think you were talking about me directly. I was quoting you directly because you stated 'Everyone has their horse on a joint supplement but won’t get them joint injections'

I was simply sharing that for lots of people, including myself, it's not about not doing treatments like injections and only using supplements but about what is most appropiate for each situation.

And that people, generally, can and do use both supplements and not be adverse to veterinary treatment too It's not an either or situation.

 

[Karenchol]

I have never owned a horse that 'needed' a supplement, like most adult humans who eat a normal diet do not need a food supplement, and when I have needed a vit and mineral supplement,I have had them prescribed by a docter, or gone to a pharmacy and read the label, you can look online for what is dose recommemded.
The problem with food supplements is they are not controlled like medicines, they are foods, so they do not have to prove anything, just do no harm, even if in some circumstances they can do.
Most minerals and vits are very cheap in bulk, and looking at the amount sold with a huge profit ,no feed coompany is going to tell you that in most cases they are not needed.
Your concerned have a blood test, take a vets advice, if you want to be clued up there enough papers online to educate yourself as to what and how much you should be giving, and buy the cheapest form, from a company that gives you the amounts per gram of product.

I have been working with a vet for 7yrs, but only recently a fully qualified nutritionist. The vet clearly didn’t suspect a dietary issue, until this blood result.
I’d had blood tests done before, but they only test for selenium if you ask for it.
I’ve taken lots of advice from so-called experts, but there’s a lot of misinformation out there. Like most people, I am not an expert.
I have read a great deal, but unless you have an science based mind it isn’t always that easy to get right.

 

[Landcruiser]

Just jumping in to add my two penn'orth. As detailed on other threads, my young mare (on hay with limited grazing, EquiminsBalancer) was showing signs of muscle soreness, low demeanor, and had elevated CK. 3 other older horses on exactly the same hay/grazing/balancer were absolutely normal. Young horse had had other issues, which muddied the water, but eventually after several blood tests which showed continuing elevated CK (AST normal) vet failed to diagnose a problem and failed to suggest further blood tests, veering towards the "Perhaps this is normal for her" route. My own research brought me to ask for Se testing, which revealed Se levels at less than half the base rate. Supplementing with Se + Vit E showed a marked difference in her within a couple of weeks.
Her Se levels abd Vit E levels have remained good, but I'm using Progressive Earth Pro Laminae plus FP Vit E as a winter top up.
To the poster above (Elno) that suggested "just" get the vet to test (everything??) and then get relevant supplement from the vet - it really doesn't work like that. Vit and min requirements vary horse to horse, season to season, workload to workload, and there is trial and error involved as well as dynamic and ongoing supplementation. A really good balancer "should" be OK for most horses but they don't all have enough Se, due to the danger of too much being eaten. So for a horse known to be deficient/need more, the owner really needs to be on it, read the ingredients and do the sums, as mostly the levels are given in mg/kg, not mg/day.

 

[Elno]

To the poster above (Elno) that suggested "just" get the vet to test (everything??) and then get relevant supplement from the vet - it really doesn't work like that. Vit and min requirements vary horse to horse, season to season, workload to workload, and there is trial and error involved as well as dynamic and ongoing supplementation. A really good balancer "should" be OK for most horses but they don't all have enough Se, due to the danger of too much being eaten. So for a horse known to be deficient/need more, the owner really needs to be on it, read the ingredients and do the sums, as mostly the levels are given in mg/kg, not mg/day.

It works exactly like that. Or at least, that is how it should work in both animal and human medicine. When you actually have a medical problem because of a deficiency, you need more than just a random supplement. If you have a B12 or iron deficiency, you don't reach for a multivitamin. You go to your doctor.

Let's take selenium as an example:

Problem which might depend on selenium deficiency ---> targeted blood testing (I never said test EVERYTHING btw, I was talking about Selenium in this particular case) ---> acknowledge low levels ---> prescribe a selenium supplement (not a balancer, but actually a concentrated, MHRA (I think your agency in UK is called) approved supplement/drug---> administer---> follow up with blod test. No "expert nutritionist" or whatever that will only recommend yet another supplement with no guarantees whatsover about the actual content needed.

How sure are you that the selenium (or any other mineral or vitamin) in your balancer is the amount that is stated? Or your joint supplement? Or your calmer?

 

[paddy555]

To the poster above (Elno) that suggested "just" get the vet to test (everything??) and then get relevant supplement from the vet - it really doesn't work like that.

yes, how amusing

Your mare is a good example of the differences in horses. We are relatively low in selenium.
we feed a fair amount of hay and grass. Not much in hard feed they could get much from.

Of 3 horses ie Arrayan (daddy) Ombu (half brother) and your mare so all closely related and they all even look exactly the same

Arrayan and Ombu have had equimins advanced complete (supplement) since they came at normal levels and neither have shown signs of any muscle problems. Your mare did. Glad you got her sorted.

 

[I'm Dun]

It works exactly like that. Or at least, that is how it should work in both animal and human medicine. When you actually have a medical problem because of a deficiency, you need more than just a random supplement. If you have a B12 or iron deficiency, you don't reach for a multivitamin. You go to your doctor.

And your Dr tells you your levels are normal and you continue to be sick for 20 years. And then you find out GPs know next to nothing about B12 deficiency, almost never follow the NICE guidelines and have a penchant for telling you its fibromyalgia as that way they can shrug and say, well you have fibro, here's some painkillers. Even if you are in the tiny minority that are diagnosed, treatment is shockingly poor, and again does not follow NICE guidelines. This is across the board in the UK. So I wouldn't be holding doctors up as a shning example of treating vitamin related issues!

 

[paddy555]

It works exactly like that. Or at least, that is how it should work in both animal and human medicine. When you actually have a medical problem because of a deficiency, you need more than just a random supplement. If you have a B12 or iron deficiency, you don't reach for a multivitamin. You go to your doctor.

Let's take selenium as an example:

Problem which might depend on selenium deficiency ---> targeted blood testing (I never said test EVERYTHING btw, I was talking about Selenium in this particular case) ---> acknowledge low levels ---> prescribe a selenium supplement (not a balancer, but actually a concentrated, MHRA (I think your agency in UK is called) approved supplement/drug---> administer---> follow up with blod test. No "expert nutritionist" or whatever that will only recommend yet another supplement with no guarantees whatsover about the actual content needed.

How sure are you that the selenium (or any other mineral or vitamin) in your balancer is the amount that is stated? Or your joint supplement? Or your calmer?

sorry but you seem to be missing the point. Before you start going to the vet to test anything you have to have the knowledge that selenium could be low to tell them to test it. .

That is what was missing for the OP on here and it was also what was missing for me re vit e. If you read the supplement labels (and I agree many don't) and then look at the recommended levels of say se or vit e you will most likely see that that supplement is providing the RDA. So, unless you have the knowledge to then wonder about that particular horse you are stuck.

That is OP's situation, it was my situation and it was LC's situation. If we look back over 10 years or so on here it has also been the situation for several others who had never heard of or considered vit e (or se) etc. They were just normal horse owners but their vets didn't help them although they were dealing with problems, often muscle problems.

If you don't have that knowledge you have no idea that you could test.

So who has the knowledge, or should have, enter the vet but they don't in my experience.

we don't know that the se in the balancer is the amount that is stated, but what else can we do.

My issue was vit e so what product would a vet in Sweden prescribe? I'm not aware of vet's here doing so. Perhaps someone else is.

BTW I'm not sure "go to your doctor" works too well in the UK. Most find it very difficult to even get a GP appointment and I'm Dun's post above is a pretty good example of GP treatment of vitamin problems. Many (human) simply have to take matters into their own hands, research their problem and buy whatever they hope will work. That is all they can do.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m not sure that I’d set much store on how robust the advice given by an equine nutritionist is, independent or not. How would you know that their advice is sound?

A rather well known Scottish nutritionist has been spotted agreeing with a highly controversial equine vet that hind gut ulcers don’t exist, and if they do, that they don’t cause issues.

Hind gut ulcers do exist and are there to be seen on PM. This from a ex Leahurst vet who has personally seem them many times on PM. As she said, they must have been causing pain when the horse was alive - some horses were riddled with them.

Sound nutritional advice on how to feed a horse with hind gut ulcers does rather depend on the person who advises you recognising that hind gut ulcers exist .

 

[quizzie]

And your Dr tells you your levels are normal and you continue to be sick for 20 years. And then you find out GPs know next to nothing about B12 deficiency, almost never follow the NICE guidelines and have a penchant for telling you its fibromyalgia as that way they can shrug and say, well you have fibro, here's some painkillers. Even if you are in the tiny minority that are diagnosed, treatment is shockingly poor, and again does not follow NICE guidelines. This is across the board in the UK. So I wouldn't be holding doctors up as a shning example of treating vitamin related issues!

Sadly only too true....After many years of being "unwell", but not actually sick, I eventually had a Vitamin D test....my level was undetectable. When I queried that, I was fobbed off with the comment that it just happens in some people. I remonstrated that given my diet and outdoor life, it was ridiculous that I had no Vit D detectable. I was lucky in that I knew enough to argue from a position of scientific/medical knowledge..... eventually I was diagnosed coeliac. ( and some other issues too)
Even then I was advised to take a derisory amount of vitamin D and told I could stop that when my blood level reached nearly normal.... a complete lack of understanding by the GP.

 

[Fieldlife]

I’m not sure that I’d set much store on how robust the advice given by an equine nutritionist is, independent or not. How would you know that their advice is sound?

A rather well known Scottish nutritionist has been spotted agreeing with a highly controversial equine vet that hind gut ulcers don’t exist, and if they do, that they don’t cause issues.

Hind gut ulcers do exist and are there to be seen on PM. This from a ex Leahurst vet who has personally seem them many times on PM. As she said, they must have been causing pain when the horse was alive - some horses were riddled with them.

Sound nutritional advice on how to feed a horse with hind gut ulcers does rather depend on the person who advises you recognising that hind gut ulcers exist .

I think we’ve established this **IS** the well known, Scottish, independent nutritionist OP is using.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think we’ve established this **IS** the well known, Scottish, independent nutritionist OP is using.

Ahh…

 

[Fieldlife]

Ahh…

Quite

 

[ester]

Exactly

And I’m also one it’s he chronic pain humans that did my own nutritional blood check, researched what I should be taking on the internet then tested again to check levels normal. No doctor had ever been involved.

Luckily pony wise hay has always been made on site so I was able to supplement based on testing forage.

 

[Landcruiser]

Let's take selenium as an example:

Problem which might depend on selenium deficiency ---> targeted blood testing (I never said test EVERYTHING btw, I was talking about Selenium in this particular case) ---> acknowledge low levels ---> prescribe a selenium supplement (not a balancer, but actually a concentrated, MHRA (I think your agency in UK is called) approved supplement/drug---> administer---> follow up with blod test. No "expert nutritionist" or whatever that will only recommend yet another supplement with no guarantees whatsover about the actual content needed.

It works exactly like that. Or at least, that is how it should work in both animal and human medicine. When you actually have a medical problem because of a deficiency, you need more than just a random supplement. If you have a B12 or iron deficiency, you don't reach for a multivitamin. You go to your doctor.

I didn't supplement with a random balancer. I used this:

Alpha Selenium for Horse Deficiency in Vitamin E and Selenium

Alpha Selenium is a product for horses and ponies that are deficient in Vitamin E and Selenium in the form of safe Selenium Yeast.

trinity-consultants.com

And followed up with blood test a month or so later (WNL), a month or so after that (Just higher than WNL), and a year later ie 8 wks ago (bang in the middle of the range). The initial blood test was at my request, the specific selenium test after the second high CK reading was at my request (vet never suggested Se defficiency as a possibility despite symptoms and high CK). Vet was astounded at initial result ie defficiency.

Once levels were WNL, that's when I switched to a carefully chosen and proven balancer - levels have remained good.

 

[Karenchol]

Just jumping in to add my two penn'orth. As detailed on other threads, my young mare (on hay with limited grazing, EquiminsBalancer) was showing signs of muscle soreness, low demeanor, and had elevated CK. 3 other older horses on exactly the same hay/grazing/balancer were absolutely normal. Young horse had had other issues, which muddied the water, but eventually after several blood tests which showed continuing elevated CK (AST normal) vet failed to diagnose a problem and failed to suggest further blood tests, veering towards the "Perhaps this is normal for her" route. My own research brought me to ask for Se testing, which revealed Se levels at less than half the base rate. Supplementing with Se + Vit E showed a marked difference in her within a couple of weeks.
Her Se levels abd Vit E levels have remained good, but I'm using Progressive Earth Pro Laminae plus FP Vit E as a winter top up.
To the poster above (Elno) that suggested "just" get the vet to test (everything??) and then get relevant supplement from the vet - it really doesn't work like that. Vit and min requirements vary horse to horse, season to season, workload to workload, and there is trial and error involved as well as dynamic and ongoing supplementation. A really good balancer "should" be OK for most horses but they don't all have enough Se, due to the danger of too much being eaten. So for a horse known to be deficient/need more, the owner really needs to be on it, read the ingredients and do the sums, as mostly the levels are given in mg/kg, not mg/day.

Thank you for your input, that’s really helpful. I’m not the only one!

 

[SEL]

Thank you for your input, that’s really helpful. I’m not the only one!

You're definitely not - there's some threads on here & Se deficiency has popped up on the muscle disease FB forums at times.

 

[Elno]

sorry but you seem to be missing the point. Before you start going to the vet to test anything you have to have the knowledge that selenium could be low to tell them to test it. .

My point was a good vet should know this and that you wouldn't need to know this yourself. Likewise with doctors.

I'm very sad to hear that this (obviously, by reading the replies on this thread) does not apply to neither vets or doctors in the UK

Ps. Not sure about vit e, the product vets usually prescribe when Se (or vit E) is deficient is a combo drug of Se/vit e either per os or in serious cases injections, but the vit E amount is pretty low in it, but at the same time vit E and Se work synergentically with each other.

 

[I'm Dun]

I’m not sure that I’d set much store on how robust the advice given by an equine nutritionist is, independent or not. How would you know that their advice is sound?

A rather well known Scottish nutritionist has been spotted agreeing with a highly controversial equine vet that hind gut ulcers don’t exist, and if they do, that they don’t cause issues.

Hind gut ulcers do exist and are there to be seen on PM. This from a ex Leahurst vet who has personally seem them many times on PM. As she said, they must have been causing pain when the horse was alive - some horses were riddled with them.

Sound nutritional advice on how to feed a horse with hind gut ulcers does rather depend on the person who advises you recognising that hind gut ulcers exist .

I used to follow her and stopped long before the vet thing as she says some very odd things about PSSM which don't agree with the current peer reviewed research.