Horse supplements - Are we being conned?!

[paddy555]

I think we’ve established this **IS** the well known, Scottish, independent nutritionist OP is using.

and there are comments re low se levels on one of todays posts so clearly reading this thread as well.

 

[Traks]

My pet hate is when they don’t put on the marketing or the box how much of each thing they have in the supplement…convenient because in most cases not enough to actually do anything!

I had to argue with a sales rep yesterday over a supplement I wanted, and tried to sell me the most expensive version of it at 3 times the price…I said but what’s the difference between this one and the cheapest version of it they also sell….and she admitted it has exactly the same ingredients just less…I said and how much is that then? What is the required amount to be effective? She admitted she didn’t know. Thankfully id done my research and walked away!

 

[Landcruiser]

Just picking a random, well known company and a well marketed, professional looking product. Naff 5 Star Optimum feed balancer. You would be forgiven for thinking, as a horse owner, that it would give your horse enough of the vits and mins needed, alongside whatever forage you feed. 3 months supply will cost you about £90 so it's not cheap.

Look at the Se level there. 1.65mg/kg.

Recommended feeding rate for a 400-600kg horse is 100g. Nice easy maths on this one (which is rarely the case).
So you are giving .165mg Se per day, ie a tenth of the minimum daily requirement (some horses need more) of this essential trace metal. If your forage is deficient (which it is in many areas of UK and US), you are going to get some effects on the horse. Which can be subtle to the point of non symptomatic, and even with symptoms can easily be mistaken for other things.
It's clear from this and other threads that Se/Vit E deficiency is an under diagnosed issue and equine vets at least in the UK have a gap in their training in this area.

​

Composition

Lucerne (high temp. dried), Calcium carbonate, Wheat feed, Brewers’ yeast, Maize, Mint, Ginger, Rapeseed oil, Monocalcium phosphate, Sodium chloride, Dandelion leaves, Fructo-oligosaccharides, Elecampane, Liquorice root, Yeast product, Chicory inulin, Vegetable oil (linseed, rspo palm, coconut), Magnesium oxide, Calcium stearate.

Additives (per kg)
Amino acids
DL-Methionine​	3c301​	​	1,030 mg​
L-Lysine monohydrochloride​	3c222​	​	2,060 mg​
Trace Elements
Iodine​	(3b202, Calcium iodate anhydrous)​	​	4.12 mg​
Copper​	(3b405, Copper (II) sulphate pentahydrate)​	​	810 mg​
Manganese​	(3b502, Manganese (II) oxide)​	​	412 mg​
Selenium​	(3b810, Selenised yeast, inactivated)​	​	1.65 mg​
Zinc​	(3b603, Zinc oxide)​	​	2,240 mg​
Vitamins
Biotin​	3a880​	​	6.6 mg​
Calcium-D-pantothenate​	3a841​	​	112 mg​
Choline chloride​	3a890​	​	412 mg​
Folic acid​	3a316​	​	30.9 mg​
Niacinamide​	3a315​	​	182 mg​
Vitamin A​	3a672a​	​	61,900 I.U.​
Vitamin B1​	3a821​	​	103 mg​
Vitamin B12​	​	​	686 μg​
Vitamin B2​	3a825i​	​	68.90 mg​
Vitamin B6​	3a831​	​	41.20 mg​
Vitamin D3​	3a671​	​	10,300 I.U.​
Vitamin E​	3a700​	​	1,750 I.U.​
Vitamin K​	3a711​	​	35 mg​
Digestibility Enhancer
Saccharomyces cerevisiae CNCM I-4407​	4b1702​	​	9.82 x 1010 cfu.​
Binder
Bentonite​	​	(1m558i)​	221,000 mg​
Technological
Preservatives​	​	​	​
Fumaric acid​	​	(1a297)​	147 mg​

Analytical Constituents
Crude protein​	11.1%​
Crude oils and fats​	3.4%​
Crude ash​	40.0%​
Crude fibre​	12.4%​
Acid Insoluble Ash​	18.3%​
Sodium​	0.6%​
Calcium​	6.6%​
Phosphorous​	0.4%​
Starch​	7.5%​

Shop​

3.7kg 5 weeks supply*£37.999kg 3 months supply*£89.99
*Based on Standard Maintenance Feeding Rate

 

[ester]

My pet hate is when they don’t put on the marketing or the box how much of each thing they have in the supplement…convenient because in most cases not enough to actually do anything!

I had to argue with a sales rep yesterday over a supplement I wanted, and tried to sell me the most expensive version of it at 3 times the price…I said but what’s the difference between this one and the cheapest version of it they also sell….and she admitted it has exactly the same ingredients just less…I said and how much is that then? What is the required amount to be effective? She admitted she didn’t know. Thankfully id done my research and walked away!

I think legally has to be on the packaging.

 

[Landcruiser]

I think legally has to be on the packaging.

I have come across some that don't give quantities, just a list.

 

[Traks]

I think legally has to be on the packaging.

No apparently the amounts don’t need to be on the packaging legally, just the general contents. I asked one company for the amounts and they said legally they didn’t have to disclose so they would not when I asked

 

[catkin]

No apparently the amounts don’t need to be on the packaging legally, just the general contents. I asked one company for the amounts and they said legally they didn’t have to disclose so they would not when I asked

Hmm, that's a quick way to get to No Sale in this household.

A question though on ingredients disclosure on products - does this mean they can be any old rubbish that the vendor thinks fit or is there some regulation that if informations printed it has to be correct? Having had a pony with an allergy this is very very important

 

[tristars]

The blue grass states are called that for a reason, grass in whatever form should be the basis of a horses diet, the best I find is with the widest variety of grasses, horses are foragers, picking up micro nutrients, and testing hay gives mineral
Levels as well at the same time fungal results, well got hay can often hint at the minerals present In the colour, for example bluish is calcium, yellowish may be iron
and the state of the gut bacteria is a factor at extracting nutrition from feeds

 

[Karenchol]

My point was a good vet should know this and that you wouldn't need to know this yourself. Likewise with doctors.

I'm very sad to hear that this (obviously, by reading the replies on this thread) does not apply to neither vets or doctors in the UK

Ps. Not sure about vit e, the product vets usually prescribe when Se (or vit E) is deficient is a combo drug of Se/vit e either per os or in serious cases injections, but the vit E amount is pretty low in it, but at the same time vit E and Se work synergentically with each other.

I’ve worked with a very good horse vet for years, I too am a bit bewildered that it had never been suggested. Especially as this area is so low in selenium. That said, my mare was not showing what they consider regular signs of selenium deficiency. If this has been her issue for 7 yrs and a selenium deficiency is responsible, there are many other symptoms besides what they consider normal. Failing that it could be some kind of inherited myopathy. My two horse are half brother and sister. I’m working with a nutritionist to to and correct this and will re-blood test in another month or so.

 

[Karenchol]

My pet hate is when they don’t put on the marketing or the box how much of each thing they have in the supplement…convenient because in most cases not enough to actually do anything!

I had to argue with a sales rep yesterday over a supplement I wanted, and tried to sell me the most expensive version of it at 3 times the price…I said but what’s the difference between this one and the cheapest version of it they also sell….and she admitted it has exactly the same ingredients just less…I said and how much is that then? What is the required amount to be effective? She admitted she didn’t know. Thankfully id done my research and walked away!

Check the credentials of the “nutritionist” is what I have advised now. Don’t just take their word for it, many I believe aren’t even trained.

 

[Karenchol]

equmins missold vitamin e for years, which when it is used to treat PSSM almost certainly had negative consequences. I use the soil observatory map to get a very rough idea of whats deficient etc in my grazing, then mix my own supplement to mitigate.That way I know whats in it.

I’m told now to forget the soil and test the actual grass in the spring. I believe we have little or no selenium because of our high water table. It doesn’t allow the roots of the grass to absorb it.

 

[criso]

Claire doesnt like FP (I think due to when they tested and published the intrinsic levels of iron in all their competitor balancers). Her choice to not recommend them is due to that, and not due to the quality of their products

I wondered what the argument was.

I did a comparison a while back on some balancers to compare levels of key ingredients and cost effectiveness. The levels of Selenium, Copper, Zinc, Magnesium, phosphorus in the standard Forageplus and Progressive Earth balancers was the same per kilo so there was clearly some personal disagreement there.

 

[magicmoments]

I had to ask.

Pony presented very lethargic with elevated AST, but nothing else in bloods. Se & E were at my request.

She was actually normal range but I've found she needs E supplementing during winter beyond her normal balancer. I generally haven't found uk vets hugely knowledgeable on potential nutrient deficiencies. One of my neighbours battled mud fever (in the summer) with her horses and ran up huge vet bills. We're very low in copper too and it was my suggestion she supplement that - both horses improved quickly.

I honestly don't think many medical professionals vets/doctors) are very knowledgeable on nutrition unfortunately. I do get it, they can't know everything, but it can certainly be part of a puzzle that could have been fixed much sooner if they had.

 

[WrongLeg]

This, this, this a billion times over. It should be printed in large letters and set up in every damn stable.

As someone medically trained I cannot for the life of me understand why people would rather buy devils claw, boswellia, turmeric etc instead of Bute, or reach for a joint supplement first instead of having the vet out for lameness evaluation and possibly joint injections. There is, at absolute best, some very, very small effect shown with supplements in peer reviewed studies, and most of them are in vitro, and would need to be given in very large amounts (more than is possible to feed to a horse) even to have a potential, small effect.

Likewise, I don't understand why, if you have a vitamin or mineraler deficiency confirmed by blood tests, would still feed a balancer with miniscule amounts of the trace element you need to substitute??? Make the vet prescribe you, like in this particular case, selenium and make sure to ask how and when, and which amount to feed it, and then follow up with regular blood tests. That is how you do it correctly.

As someone not medically trained I cannot for the life of me understand why Medics neglect people self-treating chronic inflammation with tumeric & painkillers ….or heavy bleeding with iron tablets for years and years and years instead of referring them to a /surgeon/ Gynaecologist who can solve the problem rather than manage the symptoms with meditation and herbs.

I agree, it’s ridiculous.

Medicine needs to get off it’s high horse about being evidence-based - is using saline injection as an analgesic for women in labour (NICE guideline) better or worse than feeding Tumeric instead of bute???

Medicine treats women far worse than we treat our horses: I discovered this when I searched h&h F for ‘ovarian cyst’ - just compare the 5* care horses had with the rider’s shocking stories.

 

[Karenchol]

but how do you do that with sufficient accuracy?
I buy in hundreds of bales of hay. They come from many different fields and they are all "mixed up" ie I don't get 100 from one field even. Very many people will be in the same position. They buy whatever hay the feed merchant has. They are dependent on whatever hay the livery owner buys in. I have one on haylage from a large firm. I buy a few bales at a time from different feed merchants. Those will have come from hundreds of different fields. How on earth can I analyse them all. A large amount of my feeding is forage.

I would imagine each of my fields have different soil and grazing analyses. I move my horses around.

So all the time horses are getting a different mix of everything. So the choice for me, and I guess for many in my position, which is most horse owners, is don't supplement or give a general supplement.

my other question is do all horses absorb supplements equally and do some need more that others. Other than testing every single vitamin and mineral for each horse how do you know? Realistically how many horses owners with horses that are seemingly OK could actually afford to.

Clare McDonalds page suggests that feeding forage alone isn't sufficient it needs supplementation.

Over very many years I have only seen 2 actual results from supplements. One was the vit e deficient horse I mentioned above. The other was a horse who didn't grow feet (he was BF) I used equimins hoof mender and I started to get growth relatively soon. It was obvious in those 2 horses that they needed something from their clear results.

which supplement are you feeding now?

I am feeding Spillers Lean & Lite, vit E capsules, straight selenium and Science supplement Wellhorse veteran. Along with a small quantity of Alfalfa chaff, sugarbeet and grassnuts, salt. All contain good levels of selenium because we are trying to boost them. By giving it in different ways hopefully absorbancy will be better. These do not come near to toxic levels and it is with the assistance of an independant nutritionist. I guess we can reduce them when the levels improve?
Yesterday they were re-blood tested and muscle enzythms have also been checked. So I will know more when I get the results. I think they do look more comfortable moving, although they haven't done much yet due to the weather to really say.

 

[Karenchol]

I honestly don't think many medical professionals vets/doctors) are very knowledgeable on nutrition unfortunately. I do get it, they can't know everything, but it can certainly be part of a puzzle that could have been fixed much sooner if they had.

I have a very good horse vet, but he is not clued up on supplementation. That is why this time I am using an independant nutritionist, i do not want to be feeding them anything they don't need anymore. Not only is it a waste of money, but you can do more harm than good if you feed something that needs balancing with something else. I really think it is time this was pointed out to all horse owners, each horse is an individual like us too.

 

[paddy555]

I am feeding Spillers Lean & Lite, vit E capsules, straight selenium and Science supplement Wellhorse veteran. Along with a small quantity of Alfalfa chaff, sugarbeet and grassnuts, salt. All contain good levels of selenium because we are trying to boost them. By giving it in different ways hopefully absorbancy will be better. These do not come near to toxic levels and it is with the assistance of an independant nutritionist. I guess we can reduce them when the levels improve?
Yesterday they were re-blood tested and muscle enzythms have also been checked. So I will know more when I get the results. I think they do look more comfortable moving, although they haven't done much yet due to the weather to really say.

it will be interesting when you get your results to compare with 2 months ago. Presumably you got vit e and selenium tested both then and now.

I am interested that you say vit e capsules (I am interested in vit e in general not just you)
were you feeding vit e last Dec and if so was it with powder or capsules.

If not (or not capsules) did your nutritionalist advise you to use capsules for any particular reason (over powder)

Which capsules are you using?

I am using H & B ones but am wondering it there are others?

(sorry for all the questions )

ETA I meant to thank you for reviving this thread and giving more info. It is always helpful to know where things are going)

 

[Karenchol]

Assuming (as you’ve implied) you’ve only just blood tested, you can ONLY actually say the most RECENT balancer you fed didn’t provide your horses with sufficient selenium.

You can make NO assumptions on the performance of earlier fed balancers as you didn’t test whilst feeding them.

Hi-form & Equifeast are not reputable balancers AFAIK

FP is a reputable balancer (but your independent professional doesn’t like their marketing strategy!)

I’m struggling to belies you fed correct amounts of an FP balancer for six months then blood tested immediately and found your horses selenium deficient!

With the Hi-form & Equifeast (both products with aggressive marketing and little substance on ingredients if read labels closely) it’s certainly possible.

Ps I don’t feed or have any connection to FP. I do have a biochemistry degree.

I fed FP for a long time, the reason I moved on from them was that the cost was outrageous (as I was recommend a whole host of different things) and my horses were still uncomfortable and not right. I didn't need blood samples to see this. Only now after 2.5 months on this new regime can I see that both are far more comfortable and happier in themselves, so something has improved. It has been a long process trying to find the reason for this, 7yrs and a lot of vet bills with my mare. No company can say what your horse needs unless blood tests and the individual needs of a horse are looked at independantly - one size does not fit all. I know that these companies feed the levels they do to keep within guidelines, but they cannot say that they are right for all, it is not as simple as that. I believe FP products to be very good, I still use one of them, but just because other people think that the balance in some of their producst is off, doesn't mean that the person is wrong. My horses were clearly still deficient with all of the different companies I tried, some they were far worse on and there were more that I haven't mentioned over the 7yrs. I have bred both of my horses and know them extremely well, I can see now that they are both more comfortable after boosting their selenuim and vit E and giving them a difference balance of everything else. This has only been acheived by using an independant person who does not sell their own products. They do not favour any one company either and recommend lots of others, so I really don't think it is about anything other than using their knowledge about the companies that they have analaysed thoroughly.
Both horses were re-blood tested yesterday and also their muscle enzythms will be checked too. I hope things have improved, or I could be looking at other issues/myopathies, but I hope not.

 

[WrongLeg]

I think many on here will guess who your nutritionist is.
.

Like you I spent a lot of money (thousands) and even the horse hospital didn't suggest shortage of vit E.
I only found out by chance via google and Steph Valberg MSU's site after yet another unsatisfactory blood test. No vet ever suggested to test vit e levels. I don't blame the supplement companies, they stated exactly what was in their products (or at least they did on the ones I bought) but it simply wasn't enough for my (or some other horses) I don't think we realised at the time 2012 how much vit E was required by some in winter.

I hope you see a difference for your horses. I was lucky because vit E deficiency reacts very quickly to supplementation so it was very obvious it was working.

sadly the product that saved my horse so quickly was the equimins vit e oil and I cannot thank equimins enough,

If I had the choice to still buy it I would choose it any day over the natural vit e powder. To replace the Equimins vit E I am now having to buy human vit e capsules which are a more expensive.

On a separate note if anyone knows of a good quality vit E product in liquid oil form (rather than powder) please let me know.

There’s vitamin E in Cod Liver Oil, Oats.

When I was a kid, we used to supplement with cod liver oil, egg yolk (RAW) & seaweed.
I don’t recall any hoof problems.

Also fed oats (depending on work) & bran (handful), & sugarbeet pulp & alfalfa.
Now, it’s recommended to feed less seaweed, due to potential iodine overdoses.
These were the only supplements we used in horses & (mostly show ponies) with a Haylage only forage from Feb - Oct.
At pasture from Sept/ October - HOYS until end January.

 

[Karenchol]

it will be interesting when you get your results to compare with 2 months ago. Presumably you got vit e and selenium tested both then and now.

I am interested that you say vit e capsules (I am interested in vit e in general not just you)
were you feeding vit e last Dec and if so was it with powder or capsules.

If not (or not capsules) did your nutritionalist advise you to use capsules for any particular reason (over powder)

Which capsules are you using?

I am using H & B ones but am wondering it there are others?

(sorry for all the questions )

ETA I meant to thank you for reviving this thread and giving more info. It is always helpful to know where things are going)

She said either use the powder (expensive) or capsules. I use some from Amazon high strength 1000 iu 2 bottles for £39.98 (200 in each) Obviously mine are on high doses at the moment to balance the selenium. I think the nutritionist has balanced it all together for what they need right now. I'll let you know what the blood tests reveal when they come back. The bloods go to Liphook, then the selenium test has to be sent to another location, so it takes a bit of time to get the results.

 

[paddy555]

She said either use the powder (expensive) or capsules. I use some from Amazon high strength 1000 iu 2 bottles for £39.98 (200 in each) Obviously mine are on high doses at the moment to balance the selenium. I think the nutritionist has balanced it all together for what they need right now. I'll let you know what the blood tests reveal when they come back. The bloods go to Liphook, them the selenium test has to be sent to another location, so it takes a bit of time to get the results.

thanks for that info.

 

[Karenchol]

it will be interesting when you get your results to compare with 2 months ago. Presumably you got vit e and selenium tested both then and now.

I am interested that you say vit e capsules (I am interested in vit e in general not just you)
were you feeding vit e last Dec and if so was it with powder or capsules.

If not (or not capsules) did your nutritionalist advise you to use capsules for any particular reason (over powder)

Which capsules are you using?

I am using H & B ones but am wondering it there are others?

(sorry for all the questions )

ETA I meant to thank you for reviving this thread and giving more info. It is always helpful to know where things are going)

Blood test shows levels are normal after increasing the dosage of both Selenium and Vit e. In fact a bit high now. So we will adjust and re-test in 3 months. Hopefully then they will be on an even keel.

 

[paddy555]

Blood test shows levels are normal after increasing the dosage of both Selenium and Vit e. In fact a bit high now. So we will adjust and re-test in 3 months. Hopefully then they will be on an even keel.

thanks for the update. Glad things have improved for you.