Horse unhappy in mouth

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FelixPatches

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I have a 15.1hh 6yr old Welsh/Tb gelding. He is a bright horse, with lots of attitude, cheeky, safe but needs to be kept occupied. I've had him for 1.5 years, and in all that time he has never really accepted the contact. I think he may have had that problem before I got him, as he came with a grackle plus I know sometimes the previous owner used a hackamore on him (though he was started really well). I know some (a lot?!) of it is down to my contact issues; not following the movement, not being supple enough in my elbows and through my pelvis, snatching back etc, and I am working so hard to try to correct that. He's had his teeth checked and sees a physio regularly, his saddle is fine too. He's turned out though the day and I try to make things varied, hacking and schooling, plus my trainer lunges him once a week. He constantly opens and closes his mouth and also tries to get his tongue over the bit. He will throw his head about too. I've tried various nosebands, and a Micklem and he hates them all (plus I don't like strapping him in). I've tried different bits and currently am using a Neuscheule, on the advice of a bitting expert (just over phone, not seen him), plus I've tried using bit butter. He hates that bit less than any of the others. He has now started leaning on my hands, which I try to correct with transitions and flexing. I get regular lessons. So far as I can tell he is sound (and my physio is very good and sees him each month so even if I didn't notice, she would). I use an Equilibrium massage matt on him a couple of times a week, use a magnetic rug, and do in hand stretches. Over the last 6 months he has become funny about taking right canter, in right canter he motorbikes and bears down on me though that is improving. We both now have a mental block about right canter, though when I ride the transition correctly he does take the correct lead. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm so worried, hate to think he could be in pain (though tbh he does this even in walk on a loose rein). For a while he would not go forward but this has now improved, and he is forward thinking so I think that was just a phase. I worry about things like eg kissing spines, sacroiliac problems (but I've always worried about the ponies!). When we do dressage tests, the comments are rushed, needs to relax mentally, unsteady contact. I blame myself mainly and am at point where feel I need to sell him because I am spoiling him. Any ideas very gratefully received.
 
As long as you are sure you aren't causing the problem there is likely a physical reason it's just finding it! I have a horse with recurrent back issues and I know the moment I get on from the feel of her mouth if she is uncomfortable honestly it's amazing how much it shows in the mouth but this is after much investigation into why she had some apparent bridle lameness issues.
The obvious things are teeth, back, hind end the fit and suitability of the bit and obviously how well you ride to encourage her to seek a soft receiving contact. A video woukd help as there's a lot of people here that may be able to share experience and offer advice if they could see what's happening x
 
FelixPatches said:
I have a 15.1hh 6yr old Welsh/Tb gelding. He is a bright horse, with lots of attitude, cheeky, safe but needs to be kept occupied. I've had him for 1.5 years, and in all that time he has never really accepted the contact. I think he may have had that problem before I got him, as he came with a grackle plus I know sometimes the previous owner used a hackamore on him (though he was started really well). I know some (a lot?!) of it is down to my contact issues; not following the movement, not being supple enough in my elbows and through my pelvis, snatching back etc, and I am working so hard to try to correct that. He's had his teeth checked and sees a physio regularly, his saddle is fine too. He's turned out though the day and I try to make things varied, hacking and schooling, plus my trainer lunges him once a week. He constantly opens and closes his mouth and also tries to get his tongue over the bit. He will throw his head about too. I've tried various nosebands, and a Micklem and he hates them all (plus I don't like strapping him in). I've tried different bits and currently am using a Neuscheule, on the advice of a bitting expert (just over phone, not seen him), plus I've tried using bit butter. He hates that bit less than any of the others. He has now started leaning on my hands, which I try to correct with transitions and flexing. I get regular lessons. So far as I can tell he is sound (and my physio is very good and sees him each month so even if I didn't notice, she would). I use an Equilibrium massage matt on him a couple of times a week, use a magnetic rug, and do in hand stretches. Over the last 6 months he has become funny about taking right canter, in right canter he motorbikes and bears down on me though that is improving. We both now have a mental block about right canter, though when I ride the transition correctly he does take the correct lead. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm so worried, hate to think he could be in pain (though tbh he does this even in walk on a loose rein). For a while he would not go forward but this has now improved, and he is forward thinking so I think that was just a phase. I worry about things like eg kissing spines, sacroiliac problems (but I've always worried about the ponies!). When we do dressage tests, the comments are rushed, needs to relax mentally, unsteady contact. I blame myself mainly and am at point where feel I need to sell him because I am spoiling him. Any ideas very gratefully received.
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I breed welsh cross TB's, and they are all sensitive, and will make a big fuss if there is the slightest sharp point on the teeth. They all also dislike tongue pressure and any suggestion of strapping shut the mouth. Mine all compete to a high standard in a cavesson and either a curved mouth loose ring snaffle or a myler comfort with a revolving central barrel. Have you tried any of these bits on your horse? Again, I would suggest getting a chiro out and obviously get your saddle checked or perhaps try a treeless to compare.
 
If you have ruled out physical causes (and I think the physio would have picked up sore muscles at least if there was a physical problem) then you are probably right in saying: I know some (a lot?!) of it is down to my contact issues; not following the movement, not being supple enough in my elbows and through my pelvis, snatching back etc, and I am working so hard to try to correct that.
When i learnt to ride, one instructor made us put the bit onto the top our nose (just below the part where someones sunglasses would sit) and another student would hold the reins. This part of the nose is similar to the bars of the horses mouth i.e. not much more than skin between the bit and the bone, and it is very sensitive. So, you can imagine how steady your hands need to be not to cause discomfort or pain. Some horses get used to it (or lose their sensitivity) while others just refuse to take up a contact if the hands are not steady.
It is great that you are working on improving the contact from your end, as a lot of people don't bother! You mention a trainer and lunging, so they should be able to give you exercises to do on the lunge that will help you develop an independent seat and steady contact. Perhaps you could get lunged more often? (Just for interest, I read somewhere that the Spanish Riding School make their riders go without stirrups for the first three months to develop an independent seat). Your trainer should also be able to help you decide if the horse has a physical problem too, but if you think the horse is in pain in any way then get a vet work-up.
 
I would ask a good ACPAT physio to do a hyoid release this can make a huge difference to horses like this .
Bit wise try a cheeked myler with a high port and a slot .
 
Thank you, this is really helpful, I have tried a curved snaffle and he quite liked it, but not that much. I will try a Myler. I'm not going to strap his mouth again, felt terrible doing it in the first place and it clearly didn't work. His saddle fits fine, so that's not an issue. I think it is very probably mainly down to poor riding on my part.
 
His tongue does seem quite large yes, his mouth is sort of open all the time with the bit in (I don't mean wide open, just not totally closed). Good idea re ported. Thank you.
 
thank you, yes I think my trainer would like to throttle me sometimes. She's brilliant and has given me all sorts of tips and exercises. I just can't seem to get the following of the movement thing, and being soft in the hips and elbows, it's partly due to having a stressful job and riding after work when I am still in work mode. I'm not sure if there is a solution to that other than a lottery win!
 
You might also try a bombers bit the curved one with a port that's blue coloured when new .
If he likes that and settles then he could do dressage tests wearing something like the informed designs curved Mullen mouth .
Loose ringed snaffles are often best for horses with difficult tongues as the horse can move the mouthpiece with his tongue .
And do get him checked out if his hyoid and the muscle that it's attached to in the neck are sore the tension will draw his tongue back.
 
If he has a chunky, fleshy mouth then Mylers are your friend. I also found that mine hated any movement of the bit, he hates any type of joint, loose ring etc. A hanging cheek mullen mouth myler was our saviour! (plus it's dressage legal).

Maybe get assessed by a different trainer as well - sometimes a different pair of eyes is all it takes.

Also, if you think you are wonky in any way or you want to try and increase your body awareness etc. then video is agreat feedback tool. If you could get a lesson with Russell Guire from Centaur Biomechanics then he is very good and can analyse how you sit etc. A session on a mechanical horse may also help in this respect.
 
I have a gelding like this it is a real pain. I even had his head x rayed to see if there were chips left from his wolf teeth. All we can see is that he has a very fleshy mouth. I ride him in a straight bar happy mouth and he likes this. Hates his mouth tied shut also.
I'm sure my hands also don't help as he is much better on the lunge in side reins, though he still fusses. I am riding him more and more in a hackamore as he is a dream in it.
 
Have you asked the dentist about what his mouth confirmation actually is?

If your sure everything is fine physically, one of the cheapest and easiest things you could do is to try a Bitless bridle.
 
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