Horse went out on loan returned lame and loanee's asking for bond back???

Tickles said:
What horsegirl said.

Plenty of ppl (including many on here) have been scared by a new horse in unfamiliar surroundings.

If your contract said he was to be shod then deduct the cost of that. If not then just give her the money back. (Less the cost of rug if that doesn't get returned).

What she feels/says about your horse won't be improved by you 'cheating' her out of her deposit.

At the end of the day, whilst what happened wasn't by any means ideal she hasn't harmed your horse and has kept in regular contact. In fact she was even prepared to stick with it for a little while longer.

Be happy horse is back home safe :-)
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I support you totally, OP, the horse has not been returned in the condition it was sent out, and she only had it 7 days, ffs.
The horse was unsound.
The tack was damaged too.
and she constantly ignored your advice
No sensible person would remove shoes on a new horse that had just been put on, any horse almost any horse would be crippled by this.
If she wanted to go barefoot she should consult you, it is not her horse to with do as she pleases, suppose she decides not to feed it?
If she was frightened of the horse she should have taken your advice, and let it settle in, then get an assistant to help her with it.
You have not cheated anyone, she has stolen your rug and you will never see it again.
She was sending all sorts of messages, the horse was not being looked after properly and you quite rightly removed it.
 
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Originally posted by conkers:

"This sounds like a horrible experience.
Personally, I would itemise the costs that can reasonably be charged for - shoes, rugs, saddle - and send her the remaining balance. If it ends up that she 'owes' you money, then write it off. But make sure that you make her aware that you are letting her off the additional charge.
I can't understand why you wouldn't be able to do this. After all, that is why you took a deposit."

Agree with above and not sure why some posters are being so hard on you, I'd have been really upset at damage to horse & saddle and not at all pleased at the shoes being removed without my agreement. Hope you do get this sorted as it sounds really upsetting for al concerned.
 
Oh what an awful situation, I really feel for you and your poor boy, you must be relieved he's home safe with you now!

I fully agree that you have no reason to give her any of the bond back, she had the horse a week BUT he was lame for a lot of thjat time and yet she didn't seek any treatment for him (which, considering she had him on full loan, was her responsibility to do so!).

Basically she paid a bond, she took him on LVTB, the contract states that the bond would not be returned if your boy/property did not return in the same state delivered.....it's a no brainer!
 
I have decided not to sell him anymore, i'd rather struggle to make time for him than be without him. In one week my horse had gone from being in top condition with a new wardrobe and shoes to being a poorly pony feeling very sorry for himself, i also think if she never had him it wouldnt have cost me so much in re-shoeing and physio. finally bought him another new pretty rug for winter seen as he had to go back to his old tatty one.
 
Honey08 said:
It all sounds a very strange agreement on both sides.

From what I understood, the lady, who YOU decided was ok to take your horse on, rang you every day within the first week because she was upset or worried and having problems, but you just advised her to wait and let it settle - this is how problems escalate... If I "adored" my horse I would have been over there to look at what was going on, and been trying to help. When you did go over there and found your horse unshod and lame you still let them have another chance - most people would have taken their horse home if they were worried...

When you loan a horse out you have a contract saying how you want the horse to be kept - this includes shoes etc, otherwise it is generally up to the loaner - they are taking on care of the horse.. Also, when you send tack and rugs you have to accept that they are going to deteriorate in condition. Generally rugs should be replaced, like for like, but most tack is going to wear, and it wouldn't be right to claim for that. Its a shame that it got scratched, but it a case of "these things happen".. She should replace the rug - it doesn't matter what happened to it or who told you what, so deduct for the rug unless she replaces it. I don't really see how you can claim for shoes unless you actually put in the contract that she shoe the horse - otherwise its her choice to take them off and yours to put them back on. Re the physio, unless you can actually prove that the horse has had to have physio (ie vet's referral), and insurance co prob wouldn't pay for it, so why should she? Its a grey area really. I would offer to pay half if I were her, but I don't know what else has gone on. She is obviously just as upset as you are by it all. If you look at it from her side, she has had a rough time too. I feel a bit sorry for you both. It sounds as though not enough planning and thought went into the loan full stop.

It does come across as though both of you are being very dramatic and picky. As most people say, refund the bond except for the value of the rug, and know that you have then been as decent as you can.


Hope the horse is now sound and able to be sold.
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I told her after the first phonecall that i was going to go see him and she insisted that it was fine she was just shaken. He is well behaved but is not a novice ride he is very lively in new places like when he goes to competition etc like i said the lady was so nice and seemed so kind and genuine that when i went to see him i said i would end the loan and take him home if he was too much for her. she said she had booked the physio for him and that she wanted things to work with him.....which he is a very nicely bred attractive horse so i didnt blame her but if she felt over horsed she should have admitted it, some people think because someone younger owns the horse its embarrasing to admit he's too much for her. also like i mentioned in the beginning i was busy studying and i didnt have alot of time free so i wasnt able to go evefry time she rang me which doesnt mean i dont ''Adore'' him, that is the reason i made the hard decision to sell him because i didnt have time and i didnt want him wasting in a field.
 
Honey08 said:
It all sounds a very strange agreement on both sides.

From what I understood, the lady, who YOU decided was ok to take your horse on, rang you every day within the first week because she was upset or worried and having problems, but you just advised her to wait and let it settle - this is how problems escalate... If I "adored" my horse I would have been over there to look at what was going on, and been trying to help. When you did go over there and found your horse unshod and lame you still let them have another chance - most people would have taken their horse home if they were worried...

When you loan a horse out you have a contract saying how you want the horse to be kept - this includes shoes etc, otherwise it is generally up to the loaner - they are taking on care of the horse.. Also, when you send tack and rugs you have to accept that they are going to deteriorate in condition. Generally rugs should be replaced, like for like, but most tack is going to wear, and it wouldn't be right to claim for that. Its a shame that it got scratched, but it a case of "these things happen".. She should replace the rug - it doesn't matter what happened to it or who told you what, so deduct for the rug unless she replaces it. I don't really see how you can claim for shoes unless you actually put in the contract that she shoe the horse - otherwise its her choice to take them off and yours to put them back on. Re the physio, unless you can actually prove that the horse has had to have physio (ie vet's referral), and insurance co prob wouldn't pay for it, so why should she? Its a grey area really. I would offer to pay half if I were her, but I don't know what else has gone on. She is obviously just as upset as you are by it all. If you look at it from her side, she has had a rough time too. I feel a bit sorry for you both. It sounds as though not enough planning and thought went into the loan full stop.

It does come across as though both of you are being very dramatic and picky. As most people say, refund the bond except for the value of the rug, and know that you have then been as decent as you can.


Hope the horse is now sound and able to be sold.
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Good Post !
 
Did this woman come over and try your horse first? If not I would want to see a potential loanee ride my horse 2 to 3 times to make sure she was capable. Did she give you any references?

As regards the bond I would not give her the money back as she has broken the agreement. If it stops her doing that to someone elses horse it can only be a good thing.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Did this woman come over and try your horse first? If not I would want to see a potential loanee ride my horse 2 to 3 times to make sure she was capable. Did she give you any references?

As regards the bond I would not give her the money back as she has broken the agreement. If it stops her doing that to someone elses horse it can only be a good thing.
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yes she rode him twice and came over 3 times to see him, she rode in the arena on him the first time and did walk,trot,canter and a small jump, even her complete novice husband had a go on him. The second time she took him hacking round both quiet lanes and busier roads and in to the woods for a canter.
 
Not sure what planet some people are on! I def would not be giving her a penny back! She broke the horse she should pay simple as. I wouldn't even get into an argurment about it. Also would turn up to get the rug!
 
TBH I would get a solicitor to write her a letter outlining the costs that her 7 days of having your horse has resulted in and NOT return the bond as she broke the agreement. Normally a letter from a solicitor will resolve matters like this and it will all settle down in time.

I am really sorry for what has happened to you and your horse :-( I have heard many horror stories about horses that went out on loan and sadly you do not hear the good/successful stories as much (and there really are plenty of those too!).

I hope it all gets resolved - you will have to report back :o
 
I bet she took the shoes off cos she was scared of getting kicked.

I probably woudln't feel at all like giving her any money back. I thought what a good idea a bond is (though no bond would cover the £3500 vet fee I had after a loan went badly wrong!). You are wise to get your horse back so quickly.
 
I agree AndiK. If it was MY horse she'd messed up to a considerable degree in such a short space of time, she'd be getting a bloody bill and a smack in the face!

I feel the owner is a little young and probably too trusting, but obviously a better horseman than this idiotic person she loaned to.

I hope the horse is soon back to full health and IF another person comes along (and I have personal experience of many excellent loan homes :) ) that the owner reconsiders, but keeps a far closer eye on the loaner.

I loaned out against my better judgement/first impression and I couldn't have found a better home - it's just gone two years loan now. Another person I loaned out to for over eight years sent my pony back after three days because of mis-managed introductions with her own, retired, pony. We tried again a month later and my pony couldn't have been more loved and better cared for during that time. She died Dec 2010 in a really tragic accident in the paddock (no fault but hers) and I would loan again tomorrow to this person.

I have loaned in and never had a complaint about poor care or mismanagement and kept one til the very end, even though she cost me hundreds and many tears. I made many friends and like to think helped owners out and improved their ponies and horses. But it's a two-way street and you need trust and commitment in each direction.
 
I do not think that this woman should receive her bond back. She ignored advice about how the horse needed to be handled (rode it the first day, despute being told to leave him a week to settle down) did not return it in the condition she took it in ( i.e. shoes removed), 'lost' the rug, and returned it lame. :eek: Surely one of the reasons for a bond is so that any damage/injury can be paid for when the horse is returned. If you pay a bond for a house, any damage which happens while you are the tenant will be deducted from the bond, whether the damage is accidental or not. The horse may well have suffered the same injury if in your care, BUT it was damaged while in her care, therefore the cost should be deducted from the bond.
Given the rather closed nature of the horse world I am sure that this woman will be or will become quite well known and will find it difficult to 'loan with a view to buy' in her local area.
 
I am missing something here.You send a horse back lame,with no shoes with tack missing and some people think the women has no responsibilty.
I use a standard BHS loan agreement which I alter a little to suit the pony being loaned.
I specify that the pony is to be kept shod, there is a list of tack and rugs which have to returned in good condition, a duty of care is placed on the loaner, they have to be reponsible for safe return of the passport, maintainence of vaccinations, they are responsible for treatment of any injury whilist the pony is in their care, it doesn't matter if its an accident or not and they have to have third party insurance.
When you loan something you take on the responsibilty of caring for the horse whilst its in your care. The fact it wasn't suitable for you doesn't mean you can opt out.
Thank goodnes you didn't sell him to her. I have been on livery yards where I have seen nice horses ruined in a week or two of rough handling and poor management.
 
I agree with all those who say "don't return her the money", she returned him injured, no shoes, no rug, damaged saddle, and took no notice of the advice you gave re taking her time with him.
Im also confused as to why she never got the vet/physio out to the horse and left him lame:confused:
 
In the don't pay it back camp. Forget the rug and ignore her. What's she going to do? As someone else said the police will have no interest - it'll be seen as a civil matter which they won't get involved in.
 
And I am another firmly in the 'don't give a penny back' camp, the whole thing is appalling!
Before removing shoes from a loan horse it should be discussed with the OWNER, certainly when it is done within the first week of the loan, she was on the phone every day so not as if she didn't get chance to mention it first, because permission wasn't asked then she should pay cost of replacement.

The fall happened whilst he was in her care therefore I would consider her responsible for the cost of putting it right, the fact it wasn't safe to leave him with her whilst this was done means you have had to pay it so you should take that cost from the bond. You had told her several times to get the physio out to him, had she done this? If not then she was unlikely to do it anyway.

You should charge the cost of collecting your horse.

You are right in taking out the cost of the rug.

As much as it pains me to say, it you will probably have to let the damage to your saddle go, although I would have been furious and demanding payment for that too.

I am in the 'time to settle' camp, my OH is not, he wouldn't think twice about riding a new horse immediately it arrives. He would however allow for 'quirky' behaviour and would just deal with it calmly but firmly, it would never escalate into a more serious problem. Your horse sounds lovely, I really hope he is now fully settled back at home and that this experience hasn't affected him long term.
 
conkers said:
Personally, I would itemise the costs that can reasonably be charged for - shoes, rugs, saddle - and send her the remaining balance. If it ends up that she 'owes' you money, then write it off. But make sure that you make her aware that you are letting her off the additional charge.
I can't understand why you wouldn't be able to do this. After all, that is why you took a deposit.
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^^^ I agree with that. I also think that you should tell her that any further communication between you should be in writing to give her the impression you might be suing her. It could well be that really, she's not done much wrong apart from being green and expecting too much too soon, as well as taking a few liberties with having the shoes taken off and scratching the saddle, but the thing that would upset me the most, like you, is others on the yard slag*ing you off, implying you were trying to palm her off with a dodgy horse when in fact, he was obviously unsettled, upset and trying to tell someone!
 
I'd be telling her to sling her hook, and if she wants, she can TRY to take you to court, which would cost her an absolute bomb.

If she threatens with poilce again, tell her YOU are contacting them for harrassment.

If the story goes as you told it, you have nothing to worry about.

Shame about your saddle, I think I'd be round there taking it out of her hide....

Loans are dodgy things, it seems to either work, or it doesn't...
 
Not read all replys, Normaly I would of said keep the money use it towards horses back, then you have to think all about the phone calls you will get and lawyers letter and so on, hell worth giving back just to get peace.
 
DragonSlayer said:
I'd be telling her to sling her hook, and if she wants, she can TRY to take you to court, which would cost her an absolute bomb.

If she threatens with poilce again, tell her YOU are contacting them for harrassment.

If the story goes as you told it, you have nothing to worry about.

Shame about your saddle, I think I'd be round there taking it out of her hide....

Loans are dodgy things, it seems to either work, or it doesn't...
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Agreed.
 
Right I've read through all of this , your obviously stressed and upset not just because him and his tack didn't come back to you in the condition you loaned them out in (in fact some of them didnt come back at all!) but also because your horse has been branded nasty and dangerous.

It's amazing how posts on HHO only tell one side of the story. Now I'm not saying you lied about anything but I'm sure if she was a member and posted her side of the story it would be very different! Now , its not impossible that the move etc did make your horse unsettled and if what the woman claims happens is true she was bucked off,kicked and bitten by her new loan horse and on top of all this he goes lame in the field! Think of how she feels.Her farrier probably told her shoes would be best off, not saying that excuses it she should have asked first WHY the horse was shod, but bear in mind she couldn't have fore sore him going back to you before he next saw the farrier. All credit to her for offering to have him another week , although I agree with your decision to withdraw the horse.

You say the bond was £250? Give her back that minus shoes (£55) , repair of the saddle (no idea how much that would cost) and minus the cost of your rug if she doesn't give that back too! When you give her the money (if there's any left by then) try and do it in person (daunting i know!) but give it to her saying why you have deducted what you have , and apologies for the horses behavior and say that it was out of character etc.
 
Ive read some of the responds on this, and i have to say some people are a little harsh! A contract is a contract, if she has signed it before pony left your yard, then she new full well what would happen if something like this would have occured! Which it has. I would add up everything, rugs/shoes/back/saddle, and like you said she propbably owes you more than £250. I would write up a invoice for her, adding up all costs and give that to her, then tell her youll just keep the £250 and call it quits! Dont give that money back to her, and i hope you find a more suitable situation for you and your boy!
 
vroutledge said:
I loaned a horse out some time ago whilst i was studying and didnt have enough time to dedicate to him. i originally put him up for sale as i felt he had a lot to offer and was wasted in the field only being ridden at weekends, however i had someone ring me up begging to come and see him but that she had just got married so couldnt afford to buy him straight away.....she wanted to move him to another yard closer to where she lived so i said she would have to sign an official loan agreement and pay a bond of 10% his value just for my peace of mind. He was in very good condition and kept himself relatively fit, he was up to date on all vaccinations/teeth/womers/back etc he had just had a full set of new shoes on and had new saddle/rugs. the lady agreed and my horse went off to his new home........(day1)10am the next morning i received a phonecall from the lady saying my horse had bucked her off in the arena and frightened her..............i had told her not to ride him for at least a week and let him settle in (the arena was surrounded by paddocks with horse in) so she agreed not to try riding him again for atleast a week and then i had advised lunging him before hand when she decides to ride him.................(day 2) phone rings again this time he has apparently tried kicking her when she went in his stable to rug him up whilst he was having his breakfast.(he has never ever kicked and you could take his food away from him and he wouldnt grumble) so not sure what this is about....(day3) yet another phonecall saying she couldnt catch him and that she had to leave him out......(day4) you've probably guessed the pattern by now she rings again ( i know i said call if you have any problems but this took the biscuit) this time she had finally caught him and when leading him to the stable he reared with her and she got rope burn from him dragging her, then when she tied him outside his stable to brush him he apperently tried cow kicking her and biting her.............(day5) by now im am losing patience she was taking up more of my time with phonecalls than my horse did in the first place......she tells me she's had his shoes taken off whilst the farrier was at the yard because she didnt intend on riding him on roads so she didnt think he needed them (never consulted me and the fact he had shoes mainly because he had flat feet) ...........(day6) this time she rings to say he is lame, i asked what area she thought he was lame in and she said she didnt know but she thinks maybe his back.........i said if he is no better in a couple of days get the physio out for it then she said she had seen him slip and fall in the field. so i said he would most definitely need physio to take a look..............(day7) she rings to say she had been lunging him and he was really lame in his hind leg and that she still thought she would attempt to get on (no idea why) he bucked her off again...........she is now very shaken and i just said that enough is enough, my mum was sick of her stories, my horse was the kindest most considerate horse you could ask for he was easy to do in every way. i went to visit and she said she would have brought him in but he wouldnt be caught and tried bucking at her..........i shouted him from the top of the field and he looked up whinnied frantically and galloped lamely up the field......lead him in to the stable on the end of the lead rope no problems unrugged him brushed him whilst he fell asleep...she said he hadnt been this calm at all and she couldnt believe he was making her sound like a liar. i said to her what do you want to do? she said i will try another week and see what happens i replied saying dont ride him get the physio first and just spend time on the ground getting to know him..................phone rings next day saying he had kicked her and she was in tears...i just told my mum and we hitched the trailer and went to pick him up. when we got to the yard there was a group of women all who kept their horse at the same yard and they started verbally abusing me saying ive let her loan a death trap and that he needs PTS and that he is unridable and because i travelled him without travel boots i obviously didnt care about him (not the fact he's never had them on and would probably do more damage than going without for 15mins) it really upset me so i took him back off the trailer and got on him bare back in a headcollar with no hat on and the weather was a blizzard and he never battered an eyelid i jumped off and said i dont see any problem............i got home and the lady rang up about her bond demanding it back ........i said no way and she threatened to ring the police. he returned with a bad back, no shoes, he'd dropped weight and his saddle had a huge scratch on the seat which was in pristine brand new condition before it went and she kept his new full neck rug which cost around £120 ....................Do you think i should have given her bond back?????........Sorry for the rant and long story :-/
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NO you most deff shouldnt of given her, her money back. and shes a liar dan would not ever kick anyone or act in any way like she said, well apart from the bucking her off. I would of asked her for copensation, for physo, shoes ect.
 
NO you most deff shouldnt of given her, her money back. and shes a liar dan would not ever kick anyone or act in any way like she said, well apart from the bucking her off. I would of asked her for copensation, for physo, shoes ect.
 
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