Horse whisperers - do you believe?

[jojo5]

Sorry, ycbm, did you say that you and your niece had 'sensed' water......?? Sensed how? With some sort of latent ability that I, for one, do not have? So........

 

[ycbm]

At no point did I claim to be psychic, you have (wilfully?) missed the point. The point is communication by trauma survivors, prior to them telling me the location of the trauma. I suggest that you read about the right brain to right brain communication between mothers and infants, there is quite a quantity in work around the subject by attachment theory workers.

I'm sorry you don't like the term, I know you didn't use it. I used it because the ability to describe places you haven't seen, like you described, would normally, I think, be called a psychic phenomenon. I'll make sure I don't use it again about you.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry, ycbm, did you say that you and your niece had 'sensed' water......?? Sensed how? With some sort of latent ability that I, for one, do not have? So........

Yes, I can do it too, but I believe there is a rational explanation, as I have described.
Sensing a physical phenomenon is not akin to reading the mind of a horse.

What point were you trying to make? There's more in the world than we can measure and understand? Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[jojo5]

Ok so I'm a little confused now, as I had thought that the point you w ere trying to make was that the psychic phenomena people have spoken about here could not be possible. Perhaps you are just saying the research can be discredited? It just seemed to me that water divining ( with no existing knowledge of on site underground waterways or drains) would be in a similar category. In any case, whether people 'believe' or not in any of these examples of hitherto unexplained uses of human and animal minds, we cannot, with our limited understanding of mental power, categorically deny them as a possibility. This is the point that you make at the end of your post, but does not seem to be commensurate with the rest of your posts. Apologies.

 

[ycbm]

Ok so I'm a little confused now, as I had thought that the point you w ere trying to make was that the psychic phenomena people have spoken about here could not be possible. Perhaps you are just saying the research can be discredited? It just seemed to me that water divining ( with no existing knowledge of on site underground waterways or drains) would be in a similar category. In any case, whether people 'believe' or not in any of these examples of hitherto unexplained uses of human and animal minds, we cannot, with our limited understanding of mental power, categorically deny them as a possibility. This is the point that you make at the end of your post, but does not seem to be commensurate with the rest of your posts. Apologies.

No, I don't deny the possibility. There just isn't a shred of provable evidence that paranormal abilities exist, and stage magicians can recreate everything an animal communicator or psychic can do.

But you can't prove that no sheep can fly until you throw the last sheep in the world of a cliff, so never say never!

 

[ycbm]

f you are genuinely interested in this area then there is a great book available in PDF on the web charting the discoveries of quantum physics and valid scientific studies into psychic phenomena. It is The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot, and it is well worth a look.

I've taken a look at the theory and the book. Holographic Universe theory, an offshoot of string theory which is itself contentious, isn't even accepted by most quantum physicists, and that's saying something. I'm sorry, but I don't see much to be gained by reading a book which shows how paranormal effects can be explained by a theory that we live in a giant video game like the Matrix.

We live on different planets on this issue I'm afraid

 

[Irish gal]

I've taken a look at the theory and the book. Holographic Universe theory, an offshoot of string theory which is itself contentious, isn't even accepted by most quantum physicists, and that's saying something. I'm sorry, but I don't see much to be gained by reading a book which shows how paranormal effects can be explained by a theory that we live in a giant video game like the Matrix.

We live on different planets on this issue I'm afraid

That's actually not what this book says, but strangely, I'm not at all surprised to hear that from you.

 

[Irish gal]

No, I don't deny the possibility. There just isn't a shred of provable evidence that paranormal abilities exist, and stage magicians can recreate everything an animal communicator or psychic can do.

But you can't prove that no sheep can fly until you throw the last sheep in the world of a cliff, so never say never!

You've been presented with scientific evidence but have willfully chosen to ignore it. Is that not the definition of closed minded??

Unfortunately, it's not feasible to debate this issue with you, as you have demonstrated by simply ignoring all evidence that doesn't suit your point of view. I won't be further responding to you as I might as well be talking to the wall.

 

[Mike007]

To me ,the idea of horses talking is easier to get my head round than Quantum entanglement, yet the latter has been demonstrated and "God does play dice"

 

[ycbm]

That's actually not what this book says, but strangely, I'm not at all surprised to hear that from you.

Have you looked up Holographic Universe theory?

The book says that paranormal phenomena can be explained by a theory that the world is a holographic representation originating from somewhere outside space and time. Other scientists liken this to the film the Matrix.

Any phenomenon you want to dream up, including a flying sheep, can be explained by the world being a hologram being projected by a source outside space and time.

And while my mind remains perfectly open to the suggestion, I'll be waiting for more evidence before I believe any of it to be scientific fact, especially when most scientists think it's quantum nonsense.

You are right, there is no point in us discussing this. As I said before, we are on different planets with this. Unfortunately, if you assert that there is scientific evidence that genuine horse whisperers exist again and then I'll probably feel obliged to post again to point out that there isn't. Call me a sad Muppet

 

[fburton]

I am firmly believe that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", as Carl Sagan once said.

I also like this quote from the 18th century philosopher David Hume: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish."

So far, I have seen no 'extraordinary evidence' that convinces me or would convince, I suspect, a majority of scientists.

 

[9tails]

What a shame, I was enjoying these stories.

 

[fburton]

Regrettably (or not), the title of the thread rather invited differing views!

 

[9tails]

Different views sure, but not full on ridicule of anybody with a different view.

 

[fburton]

I wouldn't say there has been ridicule from either side - more robust debate. Obviously anyone wanting only to swap anecdotes and gain validation from a shared point of view will have come to the wrong thread!

 

[paddy555]

can any of the scientists explain scientifically how divining works? It must be fact that it works. Put a dowser in a strange place with no knowledge and they will find water (or a pipe or drain) by holding a rod. A good dowser will also estimate the volume/pressure of water (as in required for a borehole) So, scientifically how does it work?

 

[fburton]

can any of the scientists explain scientifically how divining works? It must be fact that it works. Put a dowser in a strange place with no knowledge and they will find water (or a pipe or drain) by holding a rod. A good dowser will also estimate the volume/pressure of water (as in required for a borehole) So, scientifically how does it work?

One perspective on that question is in the video I linked to previously. Here's the bit where dowsing is examined:

https://youtu.be/Jve3p0ws-nI?t=6m23s

 

[Siennasong]

We have to also remember that scientists are certainly not always right and are constantly changing their minds.. When did science become the stamp of validity? The mystical/spiritual/mysterious things in the world cannot be explained by science because they are can't be 'measured' by data from the visual external world. Our modern day version of 'science' is a very new thing, before that we had alchemy, which expained things unimaginable and way before our time.. Things our scientist 'discover' now, the alchemists knew and explained a long long long time ago. I believe our scientific system is very weak and I certainly don't use the 'scientists' as a measure of validity and 'truth'.. Also many of these things that 'cant be explained' actually can be explained, if you look outside of the world of modern science and look into more ancient systems of knowledge (sufi metaphysics, yoga scriptures, alchemy etc etc).. I do believe whole heartedly in the more mysterious but I have never had any experience of horse whisperers so can't comment on that.. Of course to find the real from all the fake ones out there is a other story!!! Anyway, to believe certainly makes our world a more beautiful and magical one to live in!! ��

 

[StarcatcherWilliam]

Who is he?

Initials are CW.

I am not necessarily a skeptic, I would be prepared to believe if I was persuaded.. But how would the horses be able to describe the inside of your house anyway? They have never been inside (I assume )

)

Because the horse's spirit (the horse was dead) was inside the house with me at the time I was talking to the communicator on the phone.

Sorry for late reply, I hadn't planned to come back to this thread at all because I knew what I'd written made me sound completely cuckoo haha!

 

[jojo5]

We should also take into account that things which would have been 'unexplainable' in previous centuries have a full basis in science and technology now, so who knows what the future may hold in terms of the understanding of mental capability. Of course, in all of our history there have also been charlatans ( must look up where that word came from) who have been quick to jump on to experimental bandwagons and fleece anyone willing to accept ........

 

[YorksG]

We should also take into account that things which would have been 'unexplainable' in previous centuries have a full basis in science and technology now, so who knows what the future may hold in terms of the understanding of mental capability. Of course, in all of our history there have also been charlatans ( must look up where that word came from) who have been quick to jump on to experimentalbandwagons and fleece anyone willing to accept ........

Indeed, those who said the world was spherical were treated as fools, charlatans and heretics when they first put forward the theory......

 

[Rudolph's Red Nose]

A couple of years ago our yard had a gentleman with the intials "RP" visit our yard - I have to say I was skeptic but also thought I would regret it if I didn't have it done as everyone else was - peer pressure.

I kept saying when people asked me if I was going to have it done was "what if my horse hates me" - I have had him 14 years. Anyway the first words from RP's were ... "he wants you to know, even though you wonder, that he truly thinks the world of you and wants to spend the rest of his time with you". Some other things he said could have been easily interpreted from the surroundings but then there were other bits like he misses the black and white dog and wonders where he is and why he doesn't visit anymore .. I have a border collie and he used to run around in the field with my horse at my old yard when I was poo picking etc, there were lots of OMG how would he know moments with my horse and other horses on the yard, especially one who came to yard under tragic circumstances.

Do I believe - yes I think "RP" has a gift but I have seen another person in action and No they were not gifted, just good at reading horses and their surroundings.

 

[paddy555]

One perspective on that question is in the video I linked to previously. Here's the bit where dowsing is examined:

https://youtu.be/Jve3p0ws-nI?t=6m23s

thanks. Any chance you could paraphrase his comments where dowsing is examined (or tell me where on the video) unfortunately it is 41 minutes.

 

[jojo5]

Rudolph Red Nose -have pm'ed you.

 

[fburton]

thanks. Any chance you could paraphrase his comments where dowsing is examined (or tell me where on the video) unfortunately it is 41 minutes.

If you click on the link, it takes you to the appropriate segment which lasts 6 minutes or so.

ETA: To paraphrase: dowsing doesn't work. Boring conclusion, and the discussion about psychology is much more interesting imo.

 

[fburton]

When did science become the stamp of validity?

I think it's more helpful to consider science as a method of getting to the truth than a label like 'organic' or '100% guaranteed'.

I believe our scientific system is very weak

Nothing and no one is perfect, but I believe the scientific method is a really good way to get reliable knowledge, and in many cases the best. What are the alternatives?

 

[fburton]

Indeed, those who said the world was spherical were treated as fools, charlatans and heretics when they first put forward the theory......

If it wasn't for science (the method) they might still be! (Strictly speaking it started out as a hypothesis rather than a theory.)

 

[YorksG]

If it wasn't for science (the method) they might still be! (Strictly speaking it started out as a hypothesis rather than a theory.)

Indeed, but the science of the time ridiculed the hypothesis (thank you so much for the correction, it added so much of value to the debate)
I will try and find the work by the attachment theory specialists, which supports the hypothesis of right brain to right brain communication between infants and their primary care givers and try and find the links.

 

[fburton]

Indeed, but the science of the time ridiculed the hypothesis (thank you so much for the correction, it added so much of value to the debate)

It's fair to criticize scientists and other people for their narrow and dogmatic views; it's quite another thing to slam the process of science which did, after all, get to the truth of the matter eventually. If you are against the way science works (and I believe it does work!), that is a whole other discussion.

I will try and find the work by the attachment theory specialists, which supports the hypothesis of right brain to right brain communication between infants and their primary care givers and try and find the links.

Thanks, I would be interested to see that!

 

[fatpiggy]

but one is not always dowsing for water. You could be dowsing to follow a water pipe which is a man made thing or to follow drains etc.
Those pipes and drains are not biological necessities. There is some ability in the dowser to find these, some communication, some fine tuning in their ability.

If people have the ability to find man made drains underground I don't see it is beyond belief that some can communicate with the horses they are with. Water dowsing is very finely tuned, the more you do the more it leaps out at you. If you have the ability to communicate with animals and do it all the time I cannot see any difference.

I am not disputing there are many charlatans who have latched onto the bandwagon, but there are some genuine ones. Julie Dicker used to tell me she would walk across a yard of horses (whether she was working or not) and the horses would be calling out to her (silently) I did actually believe her as I had seen too many things she had done that were accurate but didn't really have an explanation.
\Whisperers (or whatever we want to call them) also have the ability to pick up pain by their own feel rather than watching the horse's reaction. That is not difficult, think if you are massaging a horse and come to a painful area. The pain goes straight up your arm and you have to shake it away. That all adds to the picture they build up. Julie used to dowse horses as well to locate pain.

I think most people with their own horses who know them well and are tuned in sense in someway. When I go out of the kitchen door into the yard in a morning most days I feel nothing and all is well. Then one day I get a feeling of dread as I go out. I haven't heard anything or seen anything but I know a horse is in trouble and for some reason I have a good idea of which horse. (out of a dozen or so)
When my donkey died I knew the minute I opened the house door he was dead. He was not old, he was fine the night before and 2 fields away so I couldn't see him. There was no reason for him to die (possible heart attack) but I sensed it immediately I was outside.

I do remember one horses whisperer however who insisted the top door was closed before he started work. Unfortunately he was not a very bright whisperer as he was in the foaling box with CCTV and a captive audience inside eagerly watching every move. Charlatan certainly did apply to him!

The subject of dowsing is rather interesting. Where I grew up in Cornwall we had a local dowser who would locate springs for the farmers etc and he could predict flow rate etc. He spent many years doing it and everyone recommended Don because he got the results. He blew up old mine chimneys as well as a sideline. A very good friend of mine recently retired from working for local authority as a civil engineer. He had his degree in that plus another in Environmental Geology. He regularly dowsed for hidden utilities pipes/lines on ground being prepared for redevelopment where the plans had been lost and it was cheaper and quicker than more "scientific" methods. He can't explain how it works either, but he got the results and so that was all that mattered. I had a go with dowsing rods once and I have to say it was WEIRD. I was blindfolded, turned around a good few times and then sent off to locate something. As I stepped close to the target, those blasted rods gently turned in my hands, and back again as I stepped back and away. I tried it several times, coming in from different directions, always blindfold and got it right every time. My degree is in Geology and I can't explain it but I know what I experienced and it quite spooked me.