Horses being removed,large welfare case

Jenko109 said:
How many?

I have never, in my entire life, seen an RSPCA vehicle.
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You won’t they are unmarked the lettering you see on the telly is magnetic and they pull them off when going to calls .
You can be very quickly surrounded by people on a call it’s frightening .
A horse have been ignored for months but people quickly turn up when you arrive
Often they need a quick in and out and retire to distance away to collect together more people vets and the police .
They will have planned the huge response that obviously happening at this case in advance and arrived fully ready to do what they doing as quickly as possible
They have to know they have met the bar for a legal seizure.
That means leaving horses in situations that most would consider intolerable.
But they have to work methodically recording marking individuals recording where each one is found then stabilising them for transport working out which are heading where according to condition it’s an huge enterprise it can cost tens of thousands of pounds.
I know of one case not near me where a major road was closed to allow the lorry to get away so the police were sure that it could not be followed that is how dangerous it can be .
It’s a weird and dangerous world where the RSPCA fight within the rules against people who live outside them .
 
Goldenstar said:
You won’t they are unmarked the lettering you see on the telly is magnetic and they pull them off when going to calls .
You can be very quickly surrounded by people on a call it’s frightening .
A horse have been ignored for months but people quickly turn up when you arrive
Often they need a quick in and out and retire to distance away to collect together more people vets and the police .
They will have planned the huge response that obviously happening at this case in advance and arrived fully ready to do what they doing as quickly as possible
They have to know they have met the bar for a legal seizure.
That means leaving horses in situations that most would consider intolerable.
But they have to work methodically recording marking individuals recording where each one is found then stabilising them for transport working out which are heading where according to condition it’s an huge enterprise it can cost tens of thousands of pounds.
I know of one case not near me where a major road was closed to allow the lorry to get away so the police were sure that it could not be followed that is how dangerous it can be .
It’s a weird and dangerous world where the RSPCA fight within the rules against people who live outside them .
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This. Most have no idea of the logistics involved or how dangerous it can be. And the horses that are rescued have to have places organises to go to and people to look after them.
 
Sanversera said:
Are you defending cruelty to animals?
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Pointing out that there may well be reasons why people do what they do. If they are not responsible for their actions should they be pilloried and prosecuted or helped? Do you think that animal welfare should be an excuse for cruelty to humans?

Think about it. Some poor person who obviously has mental health issues and depends on their animals has their door broken in and dozens of people in uniforms yelling at them and dragging their animals out. People in the street watching. The media there taking photos or filming. Then the nightmare of the court case and more publicity. Where is the kindness in all of that? And despite another poster claiming that RSPCA vans are not marked they certainly have clear RSPCA markings on them when visiting the vulnerable. Surely they wouldn't put them on just for those visits? Hmmm?
 
FenrisW said:
Pointing out that there may well be reasons why people do what they do. If they are not responsible for their actions should they be pilloried and prosecuted or helped? Do you think that animal welfare should be an excuse for cruelty to humans?

Think about it. Some poor person who obviously has mental health issues and depends on their animals has their door broken in and dozens of people in uniforms yelling at them and dragging their animals out. People in the street watching. The media there taking photos or filming. Then the nightmare of the court case and more publicity. Where is the kindness in all of that? And despite another poster claiming that RSPCA vans are not marked they certainly have clear RSPCA markings on them when visiting the vulnerable. Surely they wouldn't put them on just for those visits? Hmmm?
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There are undoubtedly incidents of some people having mental health issues that do mean they may become animal hoarders.

But the bottom line here is that in this country animal welfare comes pretty far down the list of issues that are addressed proactively or effectively. Our laws are week, and even when there is a clear case of neglect, often those able to do not take action in a timely manner. And it is the animals that suffer.

I'm sure we all sympathise with those having genuine mental health issues. But in most cases this is not the issue. The issue is just blatant neglect and cruelty.
 
FenrisW said:
Suggest that you look up the Fuller-Torrey papers and the Flegr papers on the subject. T.gondii is implicated in many behaviour changes and is not alone. The ability of parasites to modify and drive host behaviour is well documented.
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I dont think those papers say what you think they do.

The relationship between T. gondii and OCD has been touted a possible link, though the parasite only appears to induce this disease in a fraction of infected individuals and is sex linked in other papers. There is no specific paper by Torrey that directly addresses or establishes a link between the parasite and animal hoarding behaviour unless I'm missing one? Theres some around the subject, but its incredibly tenuous and not accepted by most.

And the Flegr papers, and there are a few, look at psychosis and schizophrenia and some OCD stuff, as well as the well known one about rodents and cat urine. There is never a link made between it and animal abuse. In fact they cant even link it to cat ownership, which they really tried to do.

So unless you have some brand new papers which for some extraordinary reason I havent seen and cant find, those researchers dont even look at the subject never mind back up the claims they do. And I can find mulitple papers saying the exact opposite to what you do.
 
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FieldOrnaments said:
T gondii infection in people that causes neurological issues is rare and most common in immunocompromised people (it's why pregnant women should not clean out cat litters).

ETA auto-correct can't cope with t word 😂😂😂
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and ironically infected women are affected strongly by the smell of urine, whereas men arent. So there is no link between infection, being attracted to the smell of cat urine and hoarding any animals.
 
I'm Dun said:
I dont think those papers say what you think they do.

The relationship between T. gondii and OCD has been touted a possible link, though the parasite only appears to induce this disease in a fraction of infected individuals and is sex linked in other papers. There is no specific paper by Torrey that directly addresses or establishes a link between the parasite and animal hoarding behaviour unless I'm missing one? Theres some around the subject, but its incredibly tenuous and not accepted by most.

And the Flegr papers, and there are a few, look at psychosis and schizophrenia and some OCD stuff, as well as the well known one about rodents and cat urine. There is never a link made between it and animal abuse. In fact they cant even link it to cat ownership, which they really tried to do.

So unless you have some brand new papers which for some extraordinary reason I havent seen and cant find, those researchers dont even look at the subject never mind back up the claims they do. And I can find mulitple papers saying the exact opposite to what you do.
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The research is moving rapidly. Some of the papers contradict each other. Nevertheless it is accepted that the infection causes mice and rats to become attracted to or to lose their fear of cat urine. If people are similarly affected (one of the premises touted in favour of animal research) then their less acute senses of smell might not allow them to differentiate between the urine of different animals. Possibly explaining why people in hoarding situations appear to be unaware of the smells around them and are unaffected by them, leaving aside the fact that the RSPCA never actually use ammonia meters to measure the ppm of ammonia present in the atmosphere.

If people become OCD, are attracted to urine smells, then it is quite feasible that those who work with animals, especially those who take in ill or unwanted animals, might be more likely to be infected.

The link would not be to animal abuse BTW. It would be to animal neglect, an important distinction.
 
I didn't say that it was rare. It's not. Something like a third of planet will be infected at some point.
It's rare that it causes neurological issues.

It's also somewhat contradictory to be arguing that the infection is so widespread as to have caused most modern human advancement yet also can negatively modify an infected person's behavior such that a hitherto 'normal' pet owner becomes a hoarder and abuser.
That also doesn't fit with the usual pathophysiology of t gondii induced neurological issues, iirc I think it's postulated tissue cysts from latent infections can accentuate amyloid beta aggregation in dementias but there's no definitive link between it and neurobiological illness.
Regardless, animals kept in poor conditions would be more likely to spread T gondii and with good hygiene it's usually not a problem for immunocompetent people, same as most people aren't getting HPS from their hamsters.

I'm out now, feel like I've fallen into a parallel universe of animal abuse apologism.
 
FieldOrnaments said:
I didn't say that it was rare. It's not. Something like a third of planet will be infected at some point.
It's rare that it causes neurological issues.

It's also somewhat contradictory to be arguing that the infection is so widespread as to have caused most modern human advancement yet also can negatively modify an infected person's behavior such that a hitherto 'normal' pet owner becomes a hoarder and abuser.
That also doesn't fit with the usual pathophysiology of t gondii induced neurological issues, iirc I think it's postulated tissue cysts from latent infections can accentuate amyloid beta aggregation in dementias but there's no definitive link between it and neurobiological illness.
Regardless, animals kept in poor conditions would be more likely to spread T gondii and with good hygiene it's usually not a problem for immunocompetent people, same as most people aren't getting HPS from their hamsters.

I'm out now, feel like I've fallen into a parallel universe of animal abuse apologism.
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The infection is widespread yes, but just as some drugs cause side effects in a small number of people it is likely that while most people are not particularly affected by t.gondii there are a small number of people who are much more affected.

Nice try to deflect the discussion but no-one is defending animal neglect but expressing concerns that people who are ill are being demonised instead of being helped.
 
FenrisW said:
The infection is widespread yes, but just as some drugs cause side effects in a small number of people it is likely that while most people are not particularly affected by t.gondii there are a small number of people who are much more affected.

Nice try to deflect the discussion but no-one is defending animal neglect but expressing concerns that people who are ill are being demonised instead of being helped.
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Shall we move on......???
 
Just ignore the weird thread diversion.

There are good and experienced professionals with equine experience employed by the RSPCA, I’ve had dealings with a few of them when fostering young ponies from the RSPCA (and I don’t suffer fools gladly 👀), but sadly there are not enough of them. They are spread too thinly.

Very sad that this is yet another big neglect case. This case aside, there is nowhere near enough room to take in all neglected equines.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Very sad that this is yet another big neglect case. This case aside, there is nowhere near enough room to take in all neglected equines.
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I'd be in favour of enforcing the laws for microchipping and passports. It would obviously mean more horses being PTS, but it would mean less horses existing in a living hell. I don't think the issue can be solved otherwise.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Just ignore the weird thread diversion.

There are good and experienced professionals with equine experience employed by the RSPCA, I’ve had dealings with a few of them when fostering young ponies from the RSPCA (and I don’t suffer fools gladly 👀), but sadly there are not enough of them. They are spread too thinly.

Very sad that this is yet another big neglect case. This case aside, there is nowhere near enough room to take in all neglected equines.
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The horses being removed today will be better situation tonight and it’s likely that some may have pts but I have never known the RSPCA pts a horse without careful assessment .
However Seeing a horse you literally helped hold up cantering around two months later is an amazing feeling.
I used to see pony at shows that I attended the day it was removed .
You do feel you helped but finally the weight of those I could not haunted me more It’s not work for the faint hearted .
 
Goldenstar said:
I have never known the RSPCA pts a horse without careful assessment .
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Did you follow the Templars stud/Rachelle Peel case? The majority of the horses were killed almost immediately. They fraudulently claimed a huge amount of money from Peel in the court case for livery fees knowing that the horses were already dead. Rachelle Peel successfully appealed the conviction as the RSPCA witness had perjured herself in the first trial and witness were not prepared to testify again at the appeal.
 
FenrisW said:
Pointing out that there may well be reasons why people do what they do. If they are not responsible for their actions should they be pilloried and prosecuted or helped? Do you think that animal welfare should be an excuse for cruelty to humans?

Think about it. Some poor person who obviously has mental health issues and depends on their animals has their door broken in and dozens of people in uniforms yelling at them and dragging their animals out. People in the street watching. The media there taking photos or filming. Then the nightmare of the court case and more publicity. Where is the kindness in all of that? And despite another poster claiming that RSPCA vans are not marked they certainly have clear RSPCA markings on them when visiting the vulnerable. Surely they wouldn't put them on just for those
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I am not claiming they are not marked I am saying their signs are magnetic because they are it’s not a claim it’s a statement.

If the conditions an animal is enduring is bad enough to warrant action if the person has no mental health issues I fail to see why the animal should endure them because the owner has a mental health issue .
 
nutjob said:
Did you follow the Templars stud/Rachelle Peel case? The majority of the horses were killed almost immediately. They fraudulently claimed a huge amount of money from Peel in the court case for livery fees knowing that the horses were already dead. Rachelle Peel successfully appealed the conviction as the RSPCA witness had perjured herself in the first trial and witness were not prepared to testify again at the appeal.
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I don’t in any detail .
I can say what I have seen and experienced.
 
Goldenstar said:
I am not claiming they are not marked I am saying their signs are magnetic because they are it’s not a claim it’s a statement.

If the conditions an animal is enduring is bad enough to warrant action if the person has no mental health issues I fail to see why the animal should endure them because the owner has a mental health issue .
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Exactly. ‘Rescuer’ may have mh issues, but that absolutely does not negate the neglect/cruelty committed and regardless of how it affects the ‘rescuer’, it is far better for the animals to be removed.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Just ignore the weird thread diversion.

There are good and experienced professionals with equine experience employed by the RSPCA, I’ve had dealings with a few of them when fostering young ponies from the RSPCA (and I don’t suffer fools gladly 👀), but sadly there are not enough of them. They are spread too thinly.

Very sad that this is yet another big neglect case. This case aside, there is nowhere near enough room to take in all neglected equines.
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and I am sure there are many of us on here know only to well that this case is probably going to be the first of many this year….
Also, forgive me but if I read about one more case where the mental health of the person/people to whom the poor animals belonged is blamed for the abuse, neglect etc I shall get even more angry….Its not just animal welfare either, it’s literally every case that’s brought to court….
 
Goldenstar said:
The horses being removed today will be better situation tonight and it’s likely that some may have pts but I have never known the RSPCA pts a horse without careful assessment .
However Seeing a horse you literally helped hold up cantering around two months later is an amazing feeling.
I used to see pony at shows that I attended the day it was removed .
You do feel you helped but finally the weight of those I could not haunted me more It’s not work for the faint hearted .
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Umm, the Peel horses?
 
The Peel case was dire, one can only hope that they have learned from that.

Re the van markings.

I drop off shredded paper for animal bedding every so often at a local big RSPCA wildlife rescue and cattery. Last time I went there was also a conference on for their inspectors. The car park was rammed with white vans with no sign writing, so they didn’t even put their RSPCA signs up on home turf.

Going on my previous good dealings with the RSPCA they will still be my first port of call if I adopt or foster again as my current two oldies depart this life.
 
Sadly there's just far more horses in the world than there are suitable homes :( & charity powers are very limited with laws that still are too vague and too broad. This year was always going to be bad because of the cost of hay as well. As it stands the rspca is far from perfect but there's no alternative to step up and fill the gap if they disappeared.
A good death will never be worse than a bad life.
 
I know of one case where the RSPCA took several well cared for donkeys and a mule. The owner had to send her vet to where they went as they were going to pts one that had been on cushings medication, which they did not know about, so did not give and it went down with laminitis. Of course they then claimed that it had laminitis when lifted. As the owners vet had been on the premises that morning he knew this was not the case.
 
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