Horses for Meat

Not sure why you're so cross with me here, Pastie (and I've been involved in farming all my life too) but the lambs here are graded and paid for by the owner of the meat factory and that is where the farmer takes them to slaughter. There IS only one journey!

I was watching a group of them today bouncing in and out of a tractor tyre that is used as a hay feeder in winter - they were having the most marvellous game and I like knowing that they will have a good life and a short, swift end to it. And then I like to eat them.
 
Naturally said:
However - I do have a problem with horses raised as pets being taken to the slaughterhouse. It smells of death, I have witnessed for myself a horse's stark fear when they come off the box to the smells and sounds at a slaughterhouse. How any domesticated horse's owner can want this to be their horse's last experience is beyond me.
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Whatever you saw is unusual though. Mainly they are completely oblivious and actually die as relaxed as being in a strange place allows.
 
heather_bambi said:
Apparently a lot of animals will seem to twitch/kick during this...arghh I can't remember exactly but it is something to do with their muscles, supposedly though the animal is dead/unconscious. It is one of those questions though that no one can answer unless you can go through that experience but come back to tell everyone!
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Yes, muscles will still twitch when there is no conscious controll to them. I have been in GA surgery when a horse is completley anaesthnatised and a muscle twich has occoured and a hind leg kicked out and hit a vet and broke his arm. But the animal didnt feel anything - it is just the muscle working.

I think the thing that needs to be looked at is the blood supply to the conscious cortex of the brain. This is the bit that will process pain in a conscious sense. i.e after the throat has been cut then there is probably not much function going on up there. But I suspect a bullet will probably disable this centre - I'm not certain though, not something I've ever researched...

This is one of my problems with ritual slaughter - they dont necessarily cut the arteries to the brain so consciousness could occur for a period after...
 
Ahh here it is...woops got the first bit wrong...most horses fell at the first slaughter attempt..not the other way around. Research taken from an abattoir in Brazil.

"Werner & Gallo (2008) observed only 85.7% of horses falling at the first attempt and signs of return to sensibility on the hook in 57.2% of horses "

The abattoirs in the UK are much more up to scratch with welfare though!!
 
I have absolutely no issue with horses being used as meat as long as they are reared, transported and killed humanely. I wouldn't have an issue with eating it either :D
 
So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on. Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.
 
Blacklist said:
If we opened things up in the UK it might make things better for the horse and put a stop to LIVE EXPORT for slaughter.
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i dont think you could do it because the frogs and the other continentals have to have it live so they can claim it's french lamb etc after its been in france in their farm for a few weeks... the best thing for horse welfare is to reduce indesciminate breeding of horses both wild and domestic, maybe it would help if there was better grading of stalions and more geldings produced as a result!!
 
pastie2 said:
So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on. Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.
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I'm sorry, but this is not my point at all. I'm not starting an issue (It's too late and I'm too nice!!!) but I was saying that I have no problems with horses going to an abboitior and being slaughtered for meat as long as their welfare is correctly considered (stress of travelling, handling, correct slaughter methods etc). I think that there are many fates worse than death. But the points that you raise ARE welfare concerns and I don't agree with these.
 
Kate Sturgess said:
Not sure why you're so cross with me here, Pastie (and I've been involved in farming all my life too) but the lambs here are graded and paid for by the owner of the meat factory and that is where the farmer takes them to slaughter. There IS only one journey!

I was watching a group of them today bouncing in and out of a tractor tyre that is used as a hay feeder in winter - they were having the most marvellous game and I like knowing that they will have a good life and a short, swift end to it. And then I like to eat them.
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I am not cross Kate, it is just the naivity(sp) of people that think that they go straight to the slaughter house, you have been involved in farming so you must know when lambs are sold on the computer,the are sold as dead weight. They are transported all over thecountry to the best market place. If they are bred in Cumbria and slaughtered in Wales they are Welsh lamb. If you are know about farmng you wll know what I am talking about!
 
pastie2 said:
So you are all happy about eating and breeding horses for meat. Please dont let me see a thread from any of you berating someone for putting the wrong ****ing rug on their horse, a saddle that doesnt fit, a back person that urgently needs to see their horse, a horse that in your opinion unfit to be ridden, unfit to be bred from. I could go on. Lets have fields of meat horses, treated like cattle.Because thats fine.
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Surely breeding/keeping horses for meat is somewhat different from using ill fitting tack? Or using correct treatment for a RIDING horse that is unfit to be ridden. If the horse is bred for meat, then its conformation will be designed for that purpose, somewhat different from the conformation of a riding horse. Presumably also the meat horse will be bred to cope with the weather conditions it would be subjected to, while maintaining maximum weight of meat, not much use if it is shivering weight off. Your view of farmers and farming is obviously poor (as you say it is from first hand experience, I wonder about the farming practices in Cumbria) as the majority of farmers wish to maximise their income through good husbandry
 
GinaB said:
I have absolutely no issue with horses being used as meat as long as they are reared, transported and killed humanely. I wouldn't have an issue with eating it either :D
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what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!
 
Pastie just because we would eat horsemeat, you can't say that we can't complain about a horse that is suffering! Its not a logical thing to say!! Student vet is right - I'm concerned about their welfare while theyre alive.. A dead horse is a dead horse.

I've never taken a horse to the slaughter house. I've had the knacker man put one down at home and take them away. When I was deciding what to do, my instructor told me that when she has taken horses for slaughter, they are killed in a loosebox, which has a folding wall - so the horse dies in a stable calmly, then falls through the wall to whatever comes next.. Does anyone else know about this?
 
Honey08 said:
Pastie just because we would eat horsemeat, you can't say that we can't complain about a horse that is suffering! Its not a logical thing to say!! Student vet is right - I'm concerned about their welfare while theyre alive.. A dead horse is a dead horse.

I've never taken a horse to the slaughter house. I've had the knacker man put one down at home and take them away. When I was deciding what to do, my instructor told me that when she has taken horses for slaughter, they are killed in a loosebox, which has a folding wall - so the horse dies in a stable calmly, then falls through the wall to whatever comes next.. Does anyone else know about this?
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Yes, it is something allong those lines. I have worked in slaughterhouses but never an equine slaughterhouse. That said, a few years ago there was a campaign from one group of people (I cant even remember who they were...) but they were campaigning against the equine slaughterhouses in the UK - saying that they are barbaric and that horses are our 'friends' and it was brutal etc. Well, they implanted a secret video into the corner of one of the loose box type things of one of the equine slaughterhouses and videoed it. I have seen the footage and TBH it did more harm for their campaign than good - the horses were slaughtered one by one, calmly brought through to a loose boxey-foldey thing, bang, then taken to a seperate room for butchery . Room was then cleaned down and the next brought it. Very quick and calm. The horses outside (they also got footage of them) were in a pen grazing calmly... unaware of what was about to happen.
 
yorksG said:
Surely breeding/keeping horses for meat is somewhat different from using ill fitting tack? Or using correct treatment for a RIDING horse that is unfit to be ridden. If the horse is bred for meat, then its conformation will be designed for that purpose, somewhat different from the conformation of a riding horse. Presumably also the meat horse will be bred to cope with the weather conditions it would be subjected to, while maintaining maximum weight of meat, not much use if it is shivering weight off. Your view of farmers and farming is obviously poor (as you say it is from first hand experience, I wonder about the farming practices in Cumbria) as the majority of farmers wish to maximise their income through good husbandry
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O you agree with the breeding of meat horses that have not the conformation to be ridden. purely for their meat, is acceptable, how many of these meat horses with poor conformation will appear on the open market as rideing horses, also what will happen to the bad breeding that is already established in this country, they will have no market at all. Mind you having said that it might not be a bad thing.
 
perfect11s said:
what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!
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And sorry... meat is meat to me. I care about the living animal and carcass quality. The species is irrelevant. Maybe human is too far purely for the TSE infection risk of eating ones own species. But TBH, when I'm dead... if anyone / anyhting wants to eat me.. at least I am being usefull!
 
perfect11s said:
what about cats dogs or even human ??? would that be an issue perhaps, afterall they are all just meat too!!
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Not a cat person so that wouldn't bother me ;) Again, if reared, killed etc humanely no issue. I am not squeamish when it comes to meat. We are evolved to eat meat! Although I would much rather some tasty phesant or venison than dog :p
 
studentvet said:
And sorry... meat is meat to me. I care about the living animal and carcass quality. The species is irrelevant. Maybe human is too far purely for the TSE infection risk of eating ones own species. But TBH, when I'm dead... if anyone / anyhting wants to eat me.. at least I am being usefull!
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Heee Hee!!!!Good reply!
 
pastie2 said:
O you agree with the breeding of meat horses that have not the conformation to be ridden. purely for their meat, is acceptable, how many of these meat horses with poor conformation will appear on the open market as rideing horses, also what will happen to the bad breeding that is already established in this country, they will have no market at all. Mind you having said that it might not be a bad thing.
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How interesting that you choose to answer only one point of my post, I agree with animals having the conformation for the job they are being bred to do, and that the indiscriminate breeding of horses with poor conformation should be ended. I doubt that many meat breeds would appear on the ridden market, as their worth would be in meat, just like very few beef cows are used for milk herds.
 
GinaB said:
Not a cat person so that wouldn't bother me ;)
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LOL - come and join me for a BBQ cat kebab!

Sorry, before anyone say it - I'm not 'sick' just a human dustbin. I have ethics about the way animals are reared and killed, but once they are dead they are food. And I get hungry.
 
I went to my first equine auction recently. It was full of badly bred, pitiful "riding horse" with poor conformation. Not all horses have the lovely life that is different to the life of a farm animal.

Student vet - thanks for coming back re the slaughter house methods for horses. Personally I wish all animals could be killed so calmly! I wouldn't have different rules for different species if it were up to me. See - I do have a soft side!;)
 
Blacklist said:
I am probably opening a LARGE CAN OF WORMS, here goes:

What does the forum think on the subject of eating horses. If a horse has had a good life and is humanely slaughtered here in UK then exported for meat to the Continent - why is the right/wrong? and why don't we eat horseflesh here in the UK. Is is not really any different to an agricultural meat animal - except we ride them.
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My answer to OP. I don't have a problem with the humane slaughter of any animal. There are too many issues regarding horses that I feel would make a situation worse if we did not have reputable abattoirs in the UK. Until those issues are managed (Quite a problem) then I am firmly on the bandwagon for the need for humane slaughter.

To answer your second point, If someone chooses to eat horsemeat that is their choice, personally no I could and would not. It is my personal choice just as those who can and do fulfill their right to.

Thirdly, my personal opinion only, I do see horses differently to cows, sheep and pigs. Not that I dont think that they don't deserve the same respect in treatment and death because I do but I view horses as a part of History, as part of our heritage and being unreplaceable servants to man.
 
yorksG said:
How interesting that you choose to answer only one point of my post, I agree with animals having the conformation for the job they are being bred to do, and that the indiscriminate breeding of horses with poor conformation should be ended. I doubt that many meat breeds would appear on the ridden market, as their worth would be in meat, just like very few beef cows are used for milk herds.
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YorksG, I think that they could slip into the ridden market. So that will be another welfare factor to contend with. In Canada they have the Premaren mare(sp) that has a catheter to her to produce urine for HRT. The foals are slaughtered as they are useless for anything else, there is a welfare site for Premaren mares foals. Not many fnd homes. Do we really want to go down that route.
 
after watchig some pictures of horse slaughter, i found it harder to watch the uk sloughter as the horses looked healthy were as in america, they look skinny and lifeless and having them killed would put them out of their misery.

tbh i would try horse meat, out of curiosity. i just dont think about the slaughter, as i do with a cow or a sheep. meat is meat at the end of the day. and there is no difference between a cow and a horse. other then the fact man has been brought to love the horse on a personal matter.
 
It is my understanding that most bull calves from milk herds are salughtered, tbh provided the mares and foals are treated humanely, I see little difference, however this is NOT meat production, so somewhat off the point. I would have thought that few people would find meat bred horses sufficiently aesthetically pleasing for many to cross into the ridden market. There are of course horses which have been bred as dual purpose animals, but that is usually meat and draught, rather than meat and riding.
 
yorksG said:
It is my understanding that most bull calves from milk herds are salughtered, tbh provided the mares and foals are treated humanely, I see little difference, however this is NOT meat production, so somewhat off the point. I would have thought that few people would find meat bred horses sufficiently aesthetically pleasing for many to cross into the ridden market. There are of course horses which have been bred as dual purpose animals, but that is usually meat and draught, rather than meat and riding.
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YorksG I am well aware of the slaughtering of bull calves, having farmed a sheep flock anda dairy herd for a number of years. You say that meat horses might not appeal to the general public, I think that they will evolve into some sort of riding horse in the end. Lets cross this with that or this.
 
How odd, I was just thinking about this today.
I'm not sure there's a whole lot of money in it really, £1 = 1kg I think the meat prices are now.

I agree, if they're transported right and slaughtered humanley I don't see a problem.
I've eaten horse meat in france, bad idea, red meat makes me ill (for some reason) but it was kinda worth it. Not much different too beef I suppose.

Meh, my opinion is that it might clear out the **** running through the breeding system...just a maybe though :D
 
Tormenta said:
My answer to OP. I don't have a problem with the humane slaughter of any animal. There are too many issues regarding horses that I feel would make a situation worse if we did not have reputable abattoirs in the UK. Until those issues are managed (Quite a problem) then I am firmly on the bandwagon for the need for humane slaughter.

To answer your second point, If someone chooses to eat horsemeat that is their choice, personally no I could and would not. It is my personal choice just as those who can and do fulfill their right to.

Thirdly, my personal opinion only, I do see horses differently to cows, sheep and pigs. Not that I dont think that they don't deserve the same respect in treatment and death because I do but I view horses as a part of History, as part of our heritage and being unreplaceable servants to man.
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Yes totaly agree very well put ..
 
Whilst not to my particular palet, as long as humanely slaughtered, and transported on the hook, not the hoof - I don't have a problem with it.

They are currently selling all sorts of 'exotic' meets in my local market - may be interesting to try some.
 
Is it better for the horse to be humanely put down or to be badly treated because it has no value for riding. The Gray affair answeres that question. There is plenty of legislation to cover transport of horses as long as it is properly enforced. So there is a motto ride the good ones and eat the bad ones.
 
KitKat_89 said:
LOL :D

I just want to clarify (not that it makes much differance) but i feel there is a differance between eating your lifelong pet and companion, and eating horsemeat, from an animal that was bred and raised for that purpose, and has not know the kind of relationship with people that a pet or competition horse would.

And pastie - Thanks for replying to my post, unwarranted as it was :p
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out of curiosity, are you a 21 year old student at Aber?
 
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