Horses losing condition in the winter

Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management

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Having been directed to this thread by someone, all I can say is Wagtail you may claim to have lots of experience but you need a lot more in how to get your point across.
I'm afraid the tone is generally, "Listen to me I KNOW I'M RIGHT !" which doesn't really work...
Using data that is 50 years old really won't wash with the horse owners of today, they are far better informed nowadays and I would say 95 % really do their best for their horses.
I would also suggest before you make such sweeping statements you think who else could be reading your posts, there are those on here with a much greater level of experience when it comes to running yards and feeding horses to the highest of competition levels, and you just sound silly.
Sorry but that's the truth.
There are many many methods of feeding that work, and there are horses who need incredibly specialised feeding to maintain weight , so please allow people some credit.
You do seem pretty blinkered in your views..
We can all learn from each other, but you have to be open minded to do that.
 
siennamum said:
How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......
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Mine are all out 24/7. It is an easy time of year for me. Later on I have a lesson to give and a horse to ride in the evening when it's cooler. I will pop down and put haylage in the fields later on too as the grass is poor this year and they need more forage. They were also given a hard feed at 6 am. So yes, I have lots of free time at the moment!
 
Wagtail said:
I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.
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The thing is Wagtail, as anyone with a lami prone horse or pony will tell you, it is not just spring grass that is the problem, it is any grass, if the animal is even slightly overweight (and sometimes even where it is at optimum weight). Our herd have been far healthier and far happier since we changed our winter management. In my case, my lami prone ponies can stay with their herd all year round as opposed to standing in a starvation paddock from march to december with hay provided in small holed nets. My home bred pony, which had to be rugged all year round since his first winter due to sweet itch, no longer wears a rug at all, EVER, he receives no other management for that condition! The lami prone ID/TB is no longer at risk of losing his life, which another serious episode would have led to, despite the management that was in place. Whilst I now like mine to come out of winter thin, this does not mean skeletal. I have several warmbloods, a 7/8TB, and far too many natives, the natives are managed on a different level to the horses, every ounce of hay/haylage weighed throughout the winter to ensure they are not overfed, they are all unrugged. Some of the the horses are fed a high forage, high oil diet with absolutely no cereal, some just small token feed on the same basis, all live out 24/7/365 with constant access to large bale haylage and are rugged from MW to HW according to need. The condition of all is monitored constantly and feeding adapted as necessary.

My winter feed bill is not far off 1k a month, far more than I would have been paying had I kept them the way I used to, with a haynet in the stable overnight, a hard feed morning and night and turnout through the day with a bit of hay if the ground was covered. Not one of ours has had a sudden weight gain into spring and summer, they have put weight on but it has come on gradually and they are all blooming. They are still evaluated very regularly to ensure none put too much on too early, they will be allowed to gain much more ready for going into winter. I truly doubt that any conscientious owner allows their horse to lose weight because they want to save money, difference in opinion is one thing but don't try to make people feel guilty about their management by insinuating that, it really is not nice! Your mission should really be to convert your liveries from the cereals they are using onto a forage based diet, I am surprised you are not more forceful of your opinions to them!
 
touchstone said:
I do feel that there are exceptions to simply a lack of feed being the only reason for weight loss.
I also feel it is beneficial to allow a slight weight loss over the winter, especially in overweight animals. Horses are often kept rather too well all year round and this can contribute to problems, allowing the metabolism problems to creep in such as insulin resistance and laminitis. A thinner horse has much less stress on joints, lungs/heart etc so winter can be a good opportunity for those that struggle with gaining weight over the summer months. (I'm certainly not condoning starving or underweight horses here btw.)
Other management issues also need to be looked at, such as dentistry, worming, rugging, clipping or not etc, they all combine alongside good diet to keep a horse healthy in winter.
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^^^^^
I agree with this, in fact I like to lose about 5-10 kilos over the six weeks before turnout, and then keep him in at night with a haynet until the first flush of grass has been eaten off [ usually by greedy natives!]. This is good management, and gives me a chance to control his weight at a time of the year when he might get laminitis. No one has ever said anything other than how well he always looks. Feed and exercise over the winter have to be balanced.
 
Wagtail said:
I believe it is not good for any animal to have vast fluctuations in weight. Besides, if I did let my horses or my liveries lose an ounce of condition over winter they would wonder what on earth they were paying me for. There would be an outcry! If you pay someone to look after your horse and pay for full livery, then you do not expect them to lose condition when you are paying for them to be fed!
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Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.
 
henryhorn said:
Having been directed to this thread by someone, all I can say is Wagtail you may claim to have lots of experience but you need a lot more in how to get your point across.
I'm afraid the tone is generally, "Listen to me I KNOW I'M RIGHT !" which doesn't really work...
Using data that is 50 years old really won't wash with the horse owners of today, they are far better informed nowadays and I would say 95 % really do their best for their horses.
I would also suggest before you make such sweeping statements you think who else could be reading your posts, there are those on here with a much greater level of experience when it comes to running yards and feeding horses to the highest of competition levels, and you just sound silly.
Sorry but that's the truth.
There are many many methods of feeding that work, and there are horses who need incredibly specialised feeding to maintain weight , so please allow people some credit.
You do seem pretty blinkered in your views..
We can all learn from each other, but you have to be open minded to do that.
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Thanks Henryhorn. I take on board what you say. I don't pride myself on my tact! But I speak as I see it. Of course there are loads of people more experienced than I am. I don't doubt that for a second. With repsect though, we are not discussion the feeding of competition horses. We are discussing horses being allowed to drop condition during the winter and whether this is a good or a bad thing.

I agree I have very strong views which I have no qualms about voicing and many people don't like me for it. That does not bother me in the slightest. I am under no illusions. I am not a popular member of this forum, though many do PM me and say I have been brave to say what I have and that they support me but would rather not say on the forum. For obvious reasons! :)
 
siennamum said:
Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.
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You should be aware that no matter what you post on here there is someone who will take an extreme viewpoint, or assume that you have done so, that is the way of this forum.
 
siennamum said:
Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.
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The reason given by most for allowing their horses to drop weight in the winter is in preparation for the sudden weight increase in the summer.
 
Naturally said:
Pages ago someone cited the study done on overweight horses losing weight and the 1% of bodyweight feed required to cause it in some horses. The study is the first I know of, of its kind, and I would caution against people using that to justify feeding horses 1%, because the study was limited to studying weight loss. I can't actually find the original article (anyone fancy PMing me with it?) but having searched for it before and read the abstracts/write ups, they did not appear to examine the adequacy of things like vitamin and mineral content of the diet, or behavioural implications, or scope the horses for ulcers, and I could probably find you some more limitations if I had the time (doing a bit of a rush job posting now!). As far as I can understand it, the study looked at food intake ONLY as a means of weight loss, and will be a springboard for future studies into those things I have just listed, no doubt. So please don't consider this the new gospel quite yet ;)
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It was me that quoted that study Naturally :) There is a link here:-http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

I agree that it is aimed for weight loss not maintenance and for horses that are getting little/no exercise. My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much. As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.

I believe that the 1% was recommended short term to reduce weight and there were no health issues or stereotypical behaviour traits shown in the horses involved in the study, which was over 16 weeks. They also recommended a balancer so that vit/mins would be addressed.

Hope that helps. :)
 
touchstone said:
My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much. As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.
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I never said that. I said that I feed an average of 16 kg of haylage a day during the winter when my horses are on no grass. I said that this is the amount I needed to feed to maintain their weight during the winter.
 
Wagtail said:
The reason given by most for allowing their horses to drop weight in the winter is in preparation for the sudden weight increase in the summer.
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Sorry Wagtail but thats simply NOT the case. You are making this up as you go along now!

Sudden increase???? Thats not what happens at all. Most horses experience a gentle but prolonged weight gain, which is why some owners get rather caught out - they havent noticed the pounds going on over the weeks.

Please, if you are going to debate, dont twist the results of your poll to suit the direction you choose to take.
 
touchstone said:
It was me that quoted that study Naturally :) There is a link here:-http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

I agree that it is aimed for weight loss not maintenance and for horses that are getting little/no exercise. My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much. As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.

I believe that the 1% was recommended short term to reduce weight and there were no health issues or stereotypical behaviour traits shown in the horses involved in the study, which was over 16 weeks. They also recommended a balancer so that vit/mins would be addressed.

Hope that helps. :)
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Thanks Touchstone :)
 
So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
 
Bop! said:
I have a good do-er.

I could feed him the "recommended" amount during the winter so he maintains his "ideal" body weight all winter. Then restrict his grazing all summer, meaning he has to spend the majority of the time alone (either in a taped off section of the field or in his stable). This way he would maintain the same condition all year round.

Instead, I choose to feed him so that he looses weight in the winter and comes into spring looking lean, ribs being easily felt and sometimes even showing :eek:. He spends the summer with his friends out 24hrs, on reasonable but not good grazing, getting a little fatter week by week and being ridden daily to keep him fit (and cause we both quite like it really). He goes into the winter looking a little too round but not obese.

Have tried it the other way (lack of knowledge when I first got him many moons ago) and I know which way we both prefer :). Nothing to do with economics, just what appears to be best for MY horse.

Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?
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^^ You've just described my situation ^^

I have a very good doer who always drops weight around Oct/Nov time. Last winter and the one before, I panicked and increased his haylage/hard feed to compensate, got him back to "optimum" then spent the rest of the winter battling his weight. Don't even get me started on how difficult spring is when he comes out of winter looking so "well"! Last summer he was on poor grazing yet still needed to be ridden every day (1-2 hours each day including intervals, fast canter work, jumping, schooling, loads of hacking) PLUS 3 walker sessions a week to keep his weight in check. All because he came out of the winter well covered. This year he came out of winter less well covered and so has been far easier to manage. He usually needs to be stabled all day, every day with only soaked hay but this year he has mainly lived out with a bit of (sometimes soaked) hay to keep him occupied when the other horses come in. Going into the coming winter, he will be allowed to drop weight as that seems natural to him and I'll let him stay slimmer throughout in the hope I have a horse who won't need his grazing restricted so much next spring/summer.

It's all well and good to say horses should maintain a good weight all year but when you have a good doer who only needs to look at a blade of grass to get fat, it's an ongoing struggle. Even when I think I've got him just right, my vet will come along and tell me to get another 50kg off - and I like my horses on the slim side so it just goes to show that most of us probably overestimate how much covering our horses should have!
 
spaniel said:
Sorry Wagtail but thats simply NOT the case. You are making this up as you go along now!

Sudden increase???? Thats not what happens at all. Most horses experience a gentle but prolonged weight gain, which is why some owners get rather caught out - they havent noticed the pounds going on over the weeks.

Please, if you are going to debate, dont twist the results of your poll to suit the direction you choose to take.
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A few pages back someone used the phrase 'ballooned overnight' or words to that effect. I really can't be bothered looking. I am fending off so many of the pack right now. :D
 
Wagtail said:
So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
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It depends on the reasons for the weight loss.

My horses are always fitter in the winter than the summer - so loose weight and are leaner. But through fitness not deprivation.
 
Wagtail said:
So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
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Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!:D
 
chestnut cob said:
^^ You've just described my situation ^^

I have a very good doer who always drops weight around Oct/Nov time. Last winter and the one before, I panicked and increased his haylage/hard feed to compensate, got him back to "optimum" then spent the rest of the winter battling his weight. Don't even get me started on how difficult spring is when he comes out of winter looking so "well"! Last summer he was on poor grazing yet still needed to be ridden every day (1-2 hours each day including intervals, fast canter work, jumping, schooling, loads of hacking) PLUS 3 walker sessions a week to keep his weight in check. All because he came out of the winter well covered. This year he came out of winter less well covered and so has been far easier to manage. He usually needs to be stabled all day, every day with only soaked hay but this year he has mainly lived out with a bit of (sometimes soaked) hay to keep him occupied when the other horses come in. Going into the coming winter, he will be allowed to drop weight as that seems natural to him and I'll let him stay slimmer throughout in the hope I have a horse who won't need his grazing restricted so much next spring/summer.

It's all well and good to say horses should maintain a good weight all year but when you have a good doer who only needs to look at a blade of grass to get fat, it's an ongoing struggle. Even when I think I've got him just right, my vet will come along and tell me to get another 50kg off - and I like my horses on the slim side so it just goes to show that most of us probably overestimate how much covering our horses should have!
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And doesn't it feel much nicer being able to see him in the field, I love it, rather than feeling sooo guilty about shutting them away all day and keeping them off the grass.
 
Ah, you have now changed to call it "dropping weight" not "losing condition". Obviously you are open minded enough to learn from others more knowledgeable than yourself. Well done.

As for what your liveries would say - probably absolutely nothing if you railroad them as you try to do with people on here.
 
Wagtail said:
So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
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My liveries all lose weight in the Winter. They gain some weight in the Summer. The upside is they have unlimited turnout, virtually zero hard food bills and extremely happy healthy horses/ponies. They often come to me with horses ponies which apparently are hard to get weight on and with lots of hard feed. Within a short space of time they are feeding no hard food, considering bringing their horses in over the Summer to keep the weight off them (ours are in more in the Summer than Winter as a rule) and are amazed at how calm and happy they are.

I am lucky, I have lots of land. I appreciate that if horses have to be stabled more they will not see these benefits. It's a shame your circumstances don't allow you to move your liveries horses over to a more natural lifesyle.
 
Wagtail said:
I never said that. I said that I feed an average of 16 kg of haylage a day during the winter when my horses are on no grass. I said that this is the amount I needed to feed to maintain their weight during the winter.
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In which case I apologise, I'm getting all my kg and lb's mixed up because my old brain is starting to fry! :D

Even so, 16kg is equivalent to 35lb, which would be a lot for many horses.
 
joeanne said:
Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!:D
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Never had a case of lami in 30 years, but don't worry, you wouldn't get on my yard, I could spot you a mile off, so everyone is happy :)
 
Wagtail said:
Never had a case of lami in 30 years
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You are so funny Wagtail.
I do wonder if you scare your liveries a tad....that or you just find the most gullible so you can feed (and charge them) for feed and copious amounts of hay/haylage they simply dont need.
And I LOVE the fact that with all your wisdom, and multi-tasking abilities, you can sit here all day typing twaddle AND manage to pump all this feed and forage into your liveries at the same time!
Amazing!
 
siennamum said:
My liveries all lose weight in the Winter. They gain some weight in the Summer. The upside is they have unlimited turnout, virtually zero hard food bills and extremely happy healthy horses/ponies. They often come to me with horses ponies which apparently are hard to get weight on and with lots of hard feed. Within a short space of time they are feeding no hard food, considering bringing their horses in over the Summer to keep the weight off them (ours are in more in the Summer than Winter as a rule) and are amazed at how calm and happy they are.

I am lucky, I have lots of land. I appreciate that if horses have to be stabled more they will not see these benefits. It's a shame your circumstances don't allow you to move your liveries horses over to a more natural lifesyle.
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I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.
 
Wagtail said:
So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
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I for one would be very happy to have a lean, fit horse. Like my old Dad says, you don't see a fat racehorse do you? :D

No one is saying a horse should drop weight drastically (unless it's needed) over winter and I'd be the first to say when a horse is too thin.
 
Wagtail said:
I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.
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It sounds as if you have too many horses. Reducing the numbers would allow for improved turnout facillities all year round. And it could be one of the reasons why you need to forage them all year around, if you simply don't have enough grass for the number of horses.
 
joeanne said:
Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!:D
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I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.
 
I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up. :) I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.
 
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