Horses losing condition in the winter

[Wagtail]

It sounds as if you have too many horses. Reducing the numbers would allow for improved turnout facillities all year round. And it could be one of the reasons why you need to forage them all year around, if you simply don't have enough grass for the number of horses.

Completely agree, which is why I feed extra haylage. You need at least 3 acres per horse if you want to keep them on grass only. Most people do not have that luxury.

However, I am quite happy the way things are.

 

[bensababy]

ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.

And you dont think over feeding and people feeding haylage is a common factor??

 

[Dolcé]

I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.

Now it becomes clear! If you don't have horses on grass over winter then you are not facing the same challenges as most other owners and your limited summer grazing would make it far easier for you to maintain a horse's weight all year round than the average owner. I can probably understand why you manage them the way you do now, livery horses dropping weight over winter standing out in an enclosed non grass area as opposed to living out on acres of land would be a different matter. Personally I wouldn't keep my horses on a yard where grass turnout was restricted in any way, we have stables but choose not to use them. If they are not getting any grass over winter then you would have to feed optimum amounts of forage without worrying about how much they are eating from the field. Perhaps you should consider reducing the number of liveries so that you have the facilities to keep them more naturally. If you didn't have too many horses in the field then you wouldn't get mud other than gateways!

 

[Wagtail]

I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.

Yes, me too. We can all disagree but no need for the vitriol.

 

[AmyMay]

Completely agree, which is why I feed extra haylage. You need at least 3 acres per horse if you want to keep them on grass only. Most people do not have that luxury.

However, I am quite happy the way things are.

But surely if you reduced the number of liveries you could offer a better service?

And is it really a luxury? You have decided how many liveries you want, thereby providing only limited turnout and grazing.

I've also never stabled my horses anywhere where there isn't ample grazing and turnout. As a customer it's what I look for and expect. I most certainly don't consider it a luxury.

 

[kerilli]

So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.

they gain a little weight here and there, they lose a little weight here and there. i doubt many people can claim that their horse(s) carry exactly the same amount of weight all year round.
one of mine was on livery last winter and lost a little bit of weight (in spite of totally ad lib hay/haylage, a good warm HW turnout, and daily hard feed incl balancer etc) - not a lot, just a little bit. she was in foal too. did i have a headfit about it? no, we just altered/upped her hard feed a little and she picked it up again very nicely. no problem at all.
minor fluctuations aren't anything at all to get upset about imho. it's natural to have those fluctuations depending on the time of year, temperature, quality of grass, how thick the horse's coat is, its breed, yadda yadda.
fluctuations from 'i can see every rib, call the RSPCA' to 'OMG it's waddling and a mm from laminitis' are more serious.
there are LOTS of different ways of keeping horses well, and happy. some need specific care (lami prone for e.g.), some can look pretty good with minimal involvement, some are very 'special needs'.
i'll go away now before someone tells me off for having to Point Out The Flipping Obvious, though!

 

[joeanne]

I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.

Ahhh MrsD123 of the "I shall blame my negligent yard for the awful state of my now unsellable pony"
Another one of the cloud cuckoo brigade!
There is a simple solution however.....dont like me? Use your U.I function....its what it is there for!

 

[martlin]

I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up. I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.

Not going our way then, is it?
And that old chestnut - ''I have tonnes of support by PM''

Classic

 

[Wagtail]

Now it becomes clear! If you don't have horses on grass over winter then you are not facing the same challenges as most other owners and your limited summer grazing would make it far easier for you to maintain a horse's weight all year round than the average owner. I can probably understand why you manage them the way you do now, livery horses dropping weight over winter standing out in an enclosed non grass area as opposed to living out on acres of land would be a different matter. Personally I wouldn't keep my horses on a yard where grass turnout was restricted in any way, we have stables but choose not to use them. If they are not getting any grass over winter then you would have to feed optimum amounts of forage without worrying about how much they are eating from the field. Perhaps you should consider reducing the number of liveries so that you have the facilities to keep them more naturally. If you didn't have too many horses in the field then you wouldn't get mud other than gateways!

I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.

 

[Dolcé]

I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up. I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.

Wagtail, I haven't seen any ganging up on this thread (well not since very early on and you did give as good as you got), as far as I can see it is just people with differing opinions attempting to convert others to their way of thinking. You come across as being very set in your ways, there are so many ways you could have had this discussion without riling people, I am happy to discuss my own horse management with anyone but do not expect to be derided for it, it is my opinion that I am doing the right thing by my horses. It is such a shame really, this could have been such a useful thread as it has so many ideas put forward by so many different people. There are so many ways of keeping horses, some totally wrong but many that are different but right for the horses involved. As long as owners 'listen' to their horses and react accordingly then tweaks can be made to get it right for all of them.

 

[Wagtail]

Not going our way then, is it?
And that old chestnut - ''I have tonnes of support by PM''

Classic

Blimey, I had a narrow escape!

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.

 

[Hippona]

So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.

But then...would you be looking after the horses with their best interests in mind....or pandering to your clients?

ETA.....as I said previously- I CHOOSE to use winter to get the summer weight off my horses. I do not starve them. I can afford to keep them. I don't rug. I don't shoe. They do come in at night for a haynet, and have hay out in the winter paddock when needed.
This live as naturally as I can get them.

I don't agree with your methods and rationale....but that up to each of us to manage our horses accordingly.

I would be mighty miffed if you were implying that I don't know what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it though......

 

[chestnut cob]

Blimey, I had a narrow escape!

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.

Not true.

The poll statistics that I can see on page 1 show:

11% agree that horses dropping weight is usually due to poor management

40% disagreed

48% said it is *generally* due to poor management BUT there are exceptions

So that is not the same thing as "60% said it is due to poor management".

 

[Wagtail]

You have not been ganging up, no. But there are some who regularly do. And I ahve zero respect for them. Even though we may disagree, I am quite happy to continue discussing with people like you who use facts and examples rather than try to score points by getting personal. I left all that behind at school. But then this forum does remind me of school sometimes.

 

[Dolcé]

I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.

Oh yes, the dreaded clay, we have that too but fortunately ours have enough acreage for it not to be too much of a problem, other than the obligatory gateways and preferred loitering areas! Fortunately we have enough dry spots for putting out the large bales through winter and have never yet had a case of mud fever so suspect we have been lucky!

 

[AmyMay]

The poll results show 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management.

Which poll are you looking at - because the one on this thread certainly doesn't show that.

 

[s4sugar]

Blimey, I had a narrow escape!

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.

I haven't done the poll as is asks about condition, not weight.

Mine spend the winter slobbing so do lose tone so by default they lose condition but don't necessarily lose any weight.

 

[Wagtail]

Not true.

The poll statistics that I can see on page 1 show:

11% agree that horses dropping weight is usually due to poor management

40% disagreed

48% said it is *generally* due to poor management BUT there are exceptions

So that is not the same thing as "60% said it is due to poor management".

Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority. I think it is generally down to poor management with some exceptions. I have said this at least 4 times. So that added to some who think it is USUALLY down to poor management makes the majority.

 

[AmyMay]

Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority

Which is not 60% - it's 48%.

 

[kerilli]

The thing is Wagtail, as anyone with a lami prone horse or pony will tell you, it is not just spring grass that is the problem, it is any grass, if the animal is even slightly overweight (and sometimes even where it is at optimum weight). Our herd have been far healthier and far happier since we changed our winter management. In my case, my lami prone ponies can stay with their herd all year round as opposed to standing in a starvation paddock from march to december with hay provided in small holed nets. My home bred pony, which had to be rugged all year round since his first winter due to sweet itch, no longer wears a rug at all, EVER, he receives no other management for that condition! The lami prone ID/TB is no longer at risk of losing his life, which another serious episode would have led to, despite the management that was in place. Whilst I now like mine to come out of winter thin, this does not mean skeletal. I have several warmbloods, a 7/8TB, and far too many natives, the natives are managed on a different level to the horses, every ounce of hay/haylage weighed throughout the winter to ensure they are not overfed, they are all unrugged. Some of the the horses are fed a high forage, high oil diet with absolutely no cereal, some just small token feed on the same basis, all live out 24/7/365 with constant access to large bale haylage and are rugged from MW to HW according to need. The condition of all is monitored constantly and feeding adapted as necessary.

My winter feed bill is not far off 1k a month, far more than I would have been paying had I kept them the way I used to, with a haynet in the stable overnight, a hard feed morning and night and turnout through the day with a bit of hay if the ground was covered. Not one of ours has had a sudden weight gain into spring and summer, they have put weight on but it has come on gradually and they are all blooming. They are still evaluated very regularly to ensure none put too much on too early, they will be allowed to gain much more ready for going into winter. I truly doubt that any conscientious owner allows their horse to lose weight because they want to save money, difference in opinion is one thing but don't try to make people feel guilty about their management by insinuating that, it really is not nice! Your mission should really be to convert your liveries from the cereals they are using onto a forage based diet, I am surprised you are not more forceful of your opinions to them!

i'd like to hear more of hch471's way of keeping horses and ponies, personally, as it sounds as if it having excellent results for some challenging equines. please?

 

[chestnut cob]

Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority. I think it is generally down to poor management with some exceptions. I have said this at least 4 times. So that added to some who think it is USUALLY down to poor management makes the majority.

You just add statistics together to make them give the answer you want! Otherwise why bother giving the option in the first place?

 

[PolarSkye]

I have what might seem to be a naive question . . . doesn't it depend on how good (or not) your grazing is, how good (or not) a doer your horse is and what stabling arrangements you have?

If Kal were living out all winter on relatively poor grazing, I'd want him to carry more condition through winter and into spring than if he had stabling at night through the winter and his grazing in the spring was likely to be very good (which is the case where we are now and tbh he came out of winter a little too "well" b/c I didn't realize just how good the spring grass would be at this yard).

This isn't a "one size fits all" discussion and I'm not really sure what the OP's point is? Managing Kali's condition (he has a high degree of TB in his breeding) is something I need to keep on top of . . . but it's simply a matter of monitoring how much turnout he has on rich grass, soaking his hay as appropriate, increasing or decreasing his hard feed as necessary and managing his exercise. Surely this is what every horse owner does . . . good or poor doer, good or poor grazing, living in or out? I just don't get the point of the thread/discussion?

P

 

[Hullabaloo]

having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!

lol
No way would I entrust the care of my horse to someone who has such entrenched views and will not consider that there may be other/better ways of doing things. I don't set myself up as an expert, but I do have the common sense to know when I need advice and ask for it. Thankfully, I also have enough common sense to know not to ask Wagtail.

Wagtail - you seem to ask people for their opinion purely to tell them they are wrong if they disagree with you. How you can call it a discussion is beyond me - diatribe seems much more appropriate! Henryhorn (as always) has given you a very sensible response. I think you should take on board what she has said.

 

[Ibblebibble]

there is no real point polar skye lol

 

[Dolcé]

there is no real point polar skye lol

The thing is, there was a point, it just wasn't worded very well nor were the goal posts made clear and fixed. It could have been a really useful discussion with some good ideas floated and, who knows, some may have learned something that would benefit their own horses. I always find it very sad that people cannot share their views and be open minded to others ideas/experiences, we all have so much to learn.

PolarSkye, it certainly isn't a one size fits all discussion and is also very much down to personal preference. Personally I like mine to lose considerable weight over winter and come into spring on the lean if not thin side. My own experience has shown me that this is better for my horses and ponies - it may not be for everyone's. Wagtail was apparently wanting to know if it was because people were skimping on feeding their horses to save money that was leading to them saying that horses should lose weight over winter, although that isn't clear in the poll introduction. In my own experience it is far more expensive for us to keep our horses more naturally than it was to keep them in at night out through the day with 2 bucket feeds and a haynet. (almost double the cost actually).

 

[Onyxia]

I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid

J&C

I think that opinion is outdated and old fashioned (and also an excuse for SOME to skimp on feeding costs), but others will agree with it. I actually voted for the third option on the poll, in that I think that loss of condition is USUALLY down to poor management, but that there are exceptions.

The horse is an old fashioned animal
It IS normal for animals to drop and put weight back on in keeping with the seasons- constant stffing of 1001 suplements and bags of mix into horses does them no good.

Treat your horses as as indivual,use the guide on the bag as a guide only and don't ass bucket feed unless it is needed.
I see very few horses at livery who need any bucket feed,but they still get plenty :s

If you are worried about bad habbits/the horse being left out at feed time,give it some chaff/an apple/carrot ect in a bucket when the feed go around.

 

[jenki13]

So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.

If I was your livery I'd be worried that my horse hadn't lost any weight over the winter! I think you said they are stabled mostly in the winter? (correct me if wrong) so they then go out on spring grass surely? If mine did that she'd be obese within a week.

I like mine to come out of winter a bit leaner, it means that she doesn't need such strict management over the summer. This year it went wrong.. I was at uni & with easter being so late I didn't get back to ride her & realise how fat she was getting (on just grass & no hard feed / forage at this point). This is from a field that she had been grazing on since February at least.. she's still on the field because she was bordering obese at Easter.
Over the winter she got fed 1/2 scoop pony nuts & about 1/4 bale of hay a day. When the hay ran out she got some haylage & no pony nuts.. the nuts were more of a "token" feed anyway & the hay was fed as the ground was frozen solid & covered in snow.. lugging out water 3 times a day to make sure it didnt freeze was fun .
She cost £15 to feed over winter & still came out overweight!

 

[jenki13]

I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.

Umm.. we have clay soil & my horse is out 24/7/365 year... It got bad in the one "paddock" which is where she had her hay (in a tyre to keep it together) but we bricked the gateways (this particular paddock has 3 off it!) & it doesn't get too deep. I walk across it in work boots & the horse doesn't get mud fever. In fact she's only had it once & she was coming into the stable every night that winter & in a drier paddock but had much poorer feet at the time & had more hard feed (don't know if this is a coincidence!).

The difference is we don't crowd the acreage that we have available for the horses, I wouldn't keep a horse on less than 2 acres so that I had minimum an acre for winter & an acre for summer.

 

[MegaBeast]

Well, I'm going to go against the grain and say that my poor doer TB mare with a limited appetite actually gains weight in Winter when she comes off grass (needed a 56" girth to go round her tum last Winter) and loses weight come April when they go back in the fields, so go figure! She is rather "special needs" though and very much the exception.

 

[Wagtail]

If I was your livery I'd be worried that my horse hadn't lost any weight over the winter! I think you said they are stabled mostly in the winter? (correct me if wrong) so they then go out on spring grass surely? If mine did that she'd be obese within a week.

I like mine to come out of winter a bit leaner, it means that she doesn't need such strict management over the summer. This year it went wrong.. I was at uni & with easter being so late I didn't get back to ride her & realise how fat she was getting (on just grass & no hard feed / forage at this point). This is from a field that she had been grazing on since February at least.. she's still on the field because she was bordering obese at Easter.
Over the winter she got fed 1/2 scoop pony nuts & about 1/4 bale of hay a day. When the hay ran out she got some haylage & no pony nuts.. the nuts were more of a "token" feed anyway & the hay was fed as the ground was frozen solid & covered in snow.. lugging out water 3 times a day to make sure it didnt freeze was fun .
She cost £15 to feed over winter & still came out overweight!

Ours will have the odd day out in the fields in winter and very early spring if it has been dry enough and the ground is not frozen. That way the grass gets nibbled and there is therefore never a sudden rush of grass. Occasionally when this has not been possible they are strip grazed to avoid too much intake. If I had loads of acres then I would cut it for hay and so again, there would not be too much spring grass for them to go out on.