Horses that check out, mentally

milliepops

milliepops

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Don't actually know why I'm posting, perhaps for ideas, perhaps for a support group!

Anyone else have a horse that continuously zones out and goes to another place in their mind?
How do you bring them back, and are there techniques you've used to help them stay in the moment with you? as outside the box as you like!

I've figured that this is the biggest problem I have with Salty, she's a talented kind horse who wants to do the right thing but her inability to stay tuned in to me is making her quite difficult to train. It's not just a ridden thing, she does it in the stable - I can walk in to groom her and it's like she barely notices me, her eyes are glazed over and if she was a person I'd say she was daydreaming. then if you go near her with a brush she is startled and headshy. When she's working, if she's staying with me in her head, she's just a lovely horse to ride, she finds her work easy and interesting. but if something stressy takes her attention away I might as well not exist!

I think this is a learnt thing and hence I'd like to think she can learn another way eventually. I have known other horses do this to some degree, all of which have had some kind of training cock up previously. The one that she reminds me of most had a poor experience being backed by inexperienced owners and zoned out when you got him near the mounting block. He would then "wake up" when you were in the saddle and explode, so he was actually quite easy because you just had to keep him conscious during the mounting bit, then he was fine.

I know Salty has been to a yard known for stuff like waving plastic bags on sticks around etc so I think she's been flooded in the past and her way of coping with stress is to go into herself, then when she snaps back, she over reacts.

So the question is, how do I avoid that zoning out bit and teach her to work through things she finds stressful (this can be as simple as a bird in the arena) rather than check out? She knows lots of school work but when the stress bit triggers her, no amount of "keeping her busy" works at the moment, the stress response is much much stronger than my instructions.
 
Really not my forte/experience as haven’t dealt with anything with such an ingrained response.

My dressage mare would sometimes have a real strong tension spike/adrenaline overload and riding her harder/keeping her busy didn’t overcome it. With her the answer was literally stopping, letting her process it and you could then literally feel her unwind underneath you. But she was pretty mild.

One other thought is to explore clicker training, I’m sure someone with more insight into it may be able to elaborate further
 
You could be describing my paint horse I sold at the end of 2017 when I first got him. I had to be very careful making sure he had zoned back into me before I touched him, or he would jump out of his skin. He was a nightmare to teach to hack, he just planted and zoned out. There's a thread about it on here from years ago. He largely grew out of it over about two years of consistent handling but he never lost being a backward thinking horse with me, though the person who has him now was having more success the last time I heard from her. Mine came over from Ireland like it, was nicely backed for me and improved, but always had issues.

I'm sorry I can't offer any constructive advice. I tried to solve it for four years and gave up.
 
I'm wondering about clicker training. Particularly as she does it on the ground as much as anything, she's such a sweetie when she's with you but other times it's like I'm invisible and she has no interest in me being there. Such a contrast with Kira who is interested and inquisitive all the time.

thanks for your experiences ycbm. Not ready to give up on her, she's fairly dangerous when she reacts so I'm not prepared to hand her on ;) but I accept there are some you can't fix :/
 
I've never personally had any hand in training one that was as pronounced in that behaviour as Salty sounds, but schooling a couple that were that way inclined is the reason I started using a 'whoa' command really early with horses that I backed. It's literally a stop doing anything and breath command and all mine do it really reliably even when super stressed. I teach it way before I get on board, using a treat as reward, and if it doesn't translate to ridden naturally, I will just hop off and give the command and reward until they get the hang.

My friend has a horse that is seriously on the zoning out side of life - one of the strangest and trickiest little horses I've known. And she's done a wonderful job with him now (most people would have given up with him, including me probably), and I know she used a lot of clicker training, so might be worth looking into.
 
thanks DD
It struck me yesterday that it could be a useful technique for her. I've done more groundwork with her since moving to a yard that allows lunging ;) so the vocal cues are getting more traction now, but definitely not reliable yet, I like the idea of hopping off to get the reaction. she will probably understand that, I hop on and off when hacking in order to avoid meltdowns on the roads and it works well.
Yesterday we did lots of parking to chill and relax when her adrenalin got too high and I think that could be successful eventually - but it was a quiet sunny day and she didn't get triggered too strongly so we were just dealing with tiny little stresses.
 
Just for a bit more info MP, what would be her reaction to something that took her attention away? For instance, you mention a bird in the arena, how would she react to this initially and then to you when you asked her to carry on?
 
Her immediate reaction is to turn and stop, and freeze - unresponsive to anything I do. can't turn her away, can't move her feet, nothing.
If it's really got her worried then I can feel her heart beating - it's that kind of reaction.
Sometimes she then snaps out of it and runs off, sometimes bucking, sometimes just humping ;)
If it wasn't a big deal then I can usually get her back on her task but really struggle to get the adrenalin down again, she stays tight and tense. Obviously this is a real challenge as a rider, because to keep yourself *properly* relaxed when the horse feels like a bomb about to go off is quite difficult, lol!

Yesterday I started to see a chink in the wall she puts up, it was such a nice quiet day and we did some really easy work with lots of easy transitions and little circles and nothing took her away in her mind too badly, the difference in her was huge and we really did achieve some properly relaxed work. But at the end, when I got off, something spooked her and she went back into that zoned out heart-thumping weird dream state. *sigh*
 
it feels like I can't teach her to think, if that makes sense, but the on-the-ground behaviour mirroring the ridden stuff makes me think it's not a riding training problem, it's a general state of mind/inability to stay tuned in to her handler.
 
milliepops said:
it feels like I can't teach her to think, if that makes sense, but the on-the-ground behaviour mirroring the ridden stuff makes me think it's not a riding training problem, it's a general state of mind/inability to stay tuned in to her handler.
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Were you trying her on valerian, has it made any impact?

Has she seen a vet? I’ve seen things like kissing spine manifest some of the reactions you are seeing. I’d be tempted to shovel her full of Bute for a bit and see if there is any improvement, however slight
 
i did try the valerian for a week or so but while it looked promising to start with, she became almost more reactive - whether it was coincidence or cause/effect I don't know. Anyway, she is not getting anything now.
She has been seen by vet but we haven't done a work up, they didn't feel there was a need but I could push it. would you expect the same weird behaviour in the stable though?

she was sold as "has a buck" and the chap who rode her in the sales ring told me that if you whacked her she stopped it :rolleyes:. I can confirm... but if you use the stick she gets more tense, chomps the bit, steps are tight, can't relax again. It's like she knows she did the wrong thing but can't get down off the ceiling. So not a helpful approach.

So the thing I've been concentrating on recently is teaching her to wait for me, and not just bog off if she gets frightened. Like, a spook is a proportionate reaction, finding ourselves 40m away is not. I do feel like I'm making progress on that, but can't seem to keep her attention.
 
I’ve definitely experienced that and it’s a horrible feeling isn’t it? It sounds like once she has got into that head space, any attempt to continue to work her through it as this stage is probably counter productive. Sure, you might be able to persuade her to carry on in the end, but a tense and potentially explosive animal underneath you, who clearly isn’t relaxed or in the frame of mind to work, well that’s no fun for either of you and it’s probably not particularly useful.

Thinking outside the box a little, I wonder if you can teach her something ‘familiar’ that you do when she gets into that state. Have you taught her to head lower in hand? I found this invaluable with a highly explosive welsh idiot I had and I use it with Polly. Infact it saved my bacon just after Christmas when I was out inhand with Polly and she heard some shouting in the distance. When a horses head is up high and they are on alert, they are releasing adrenaline. The act of head lowering can actually help to reduce this response. I wonder for the time being if getting her to stand, hopping off and asking her to head lower might be a way of trying to snap her back into focusing on you. It’s easy enough to teach them in the stable, field or on the yard but you do have to be fairly insistent that they focus on you and use the pressure-release system. You can get them to lower as much as they will. If that head bobs up again, you just repeat and repeat. It can take a while, particularly at first, but it’s a useful tool and they soon come to realise what you want. Then, once the adrenaline is ebbing away and heart rate reduces, get her feet moving again in hand, even if it means you are walking her round for 10-15minutes. Then is she has settled, hop back on pick up where you left off. I think you need something to ‘break the cycle’ of this behaviour, but in a way that keeps you safe and is beneficial to her during these moments of high anxiety. Over time you can then teach her to head lower under saddle, so you can have the same influence on her without having to get off.
 
ihatework said:
Were you trying her on valerian, has it made any impact?

Has she seen a vet? I’ve seen things like kissing spine manifest some of the reactions you are seeing. I’d be tempted to shovel her full of Bute for a bit and see if there is any improvement, however slight
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Will also agree with the possibility of a physical issue. Her reactions sound very similar to the hooligan, which is why I sent him in for kissing spines X-rays. Sometimes they get stuck in a viscious cycle. the tenseness and spooking tightens the back muscles, which then further closes the gap between the already touching processes. The horse then associates anxiety with pain and the whole thing gets worse and worse.
For the sake of a couple of hundred pounds, it might be worth just getting some X-rays done, then you can rule it in or out and put your mind at rest or give you something to try and deal with. Particularly aswell if she is known for bucking.
 
I think time and just keep going will get you there MP.

Nothing much to add that's not been said, but with Topaz a sharp shout if she became hysterical could get her back to me, as could either a one rein stop and letting her stand and calm down, or sharply sending on (but this was all in the timing and had to be a millisecond before she exploded, so one rein stop was used more :p). Topaz was an out and out exploder though she wouldn't stop first so I'm not sure how much they really relate...

Topaz has learnt gradually over time to remain focused on me but it has taken years and years, so I'll be following this to see if there was a way I could have sped up the process :).
 
Following with interest, one of mine, not so much zoned out but once he gets upset it's very hard to bring him back down, some days it's just the rain on the roof . I do speak to him a lot, will be talking to him as I approach the stable, just so he
Knows I'm there. I'm working on the head lowering process 🤔 can get very upset when ridden, even when other ponies are stood next to him saying What s up with you? Other times no problem
 
Cortez said:
Please don't be offended, but I rather think she's just a bit....thick. Has she by any chance any hannoverian breeding?
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I'm absolutely not offended, she is indeed Hann - I bought her as she's related to Millie and Millie was such a lovely horse to ride. So out of all the no hopers available at my budget she pulled the heartstrings. But you aren't the first to ask that question!!
 
I love clicker training. I am yet to find a horse that doesnt love it either. I think if you could do that on the ground and make yourself fun and incredibly interesting then over time you can carry that over to ridden work. There is nothing stopping you using the clicker while you ride.

Its brilliant for getting them thinking as they will offer you different behaviours to get the response from you they want, and with her that might just be the key. You dont want her shutting down, so you are showing her a different way of coping by thinking and offering behaviours. Everything is positive so there is never any need to shut down. I would definitely give it a try.
 
milliepops said:
I'm absolutely not offended, she is indeed Hann - I bought her as she's related to Millie and Millie was such a lovely horse to ride. But you aren't the first to ask that question!!
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The dumbest horse I ever rode was an absolutely beautiful hannoverian who would literally walk (or canter!) into walls when he was in "the zone". Took me forever to work out what was going on :oops: No advice I'm afraid, other than to get a cleverer horse?
 
scats said:
Thinking outside the box a little, I wonder if you can teach her something ‘familiar’ that you do when she gets into that state. Have you taught her to head lower in hand? .
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good call, I did actually do this with Kira who got herself similarly "stuck" when she got spooked by something.

Noted re the x rays ;) vet and physio have both indicated that they would not be concerned re kissing spines but I obv accept they don't have x ray eyes. She may well have something physical that is not obvious, her bum is full of scar tissue that points to some kind of accident in the past.
 
A different scenario but when I first got Leo he didnt like people at all. He had shut down apart from bouts of biting and kicking which was fun. So I clicker trained him. At first he still hated me, but once we got his pain issues sorted he decided I was the best thing that had ever happened to him. I've never had a horse love me the way that one did, he was so in tune with me I swear he could hear me think. I'm not saying it was all the clicker training but that was the first step with him.
 
Cortez said:
The dumbest horse I ever rode was an absolutely beautiful hannoverian who would literally walk (or canter!) into walls when he was in "the zone". Took me forever to work out what was going on :oops: No advice I'm afraid, other than to get a cleverer horse?
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lol, yup that would be an answer. Oh dear! Poor daft horses. i feel a bit sad for her , I absolutely won't sell her to someone else as an unresolved problem, there's been too much handing on already in her short life. I'm not so big headed as to think no one else could fix her but I don't think its a responsible thing to do. in the meantime she's doing an excellent job of keeping Kira company, which is my top priority ;) And she's actually quite a nice hack a lot of the time.
 
Leo Walker said:
A different scenario but when I first got Leo he didnt like people at all. He had shut down apart from bouts of biting and kicking which was fun. So I clicker trained him. At first he still hated me, but once we got his pain issues sorted he decided I was the best thing that had ever happened to him. I've never had a horse love me the way that one did, he was so in tune with me I swear he could hear me think. I'm not saying it was all the clicker training but that was the first step with him.
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have ordered a clicker ;)
nothing to lose ;) except possibly my fingers, she does get a bit jaws-like about treats so I think it could be tricky to start with!
 
I suppose the thing is you have had her a year (?) now? Showing some progress but not quite enough really.

I presume you are starting to think of long term - how long and how much you keep investing?

Having thought more about it I do think clicker training is the next step.
I wouldn’t rule out a hefty dose of Bute or xraying but it depends on how much you believe in her and want to invest.

Cortez did make me laugh though re stupid horses, they are definitely out there!
 
Jay Man would be like this when I first had him.

Initially all I could do was sit still and wait for him to return. This could be for an hour.

I did loads of ground work to help him to bend and lower his head. The bending was first, as I could kind of insist on that. We turned many, many circles as at first the whole concept of letting go of the outer half of his body was not a possibility, so he would follow the bit round and around in a circle. As soon as he gave even just a little bit then I would stop. I initially did all of this only when he was not stressed, and even then he was reluctant to let go.

I also found him to be defensive of his ribs. Initially when ground working, if I so much as glanced at his ribs he was leap sideways, sometimes catching my foot or leg as the front feet shot inwards in order to propel him outwards.

We did loads of work, just (supposedly) at walk, teaching him to bend at my will. I taught him that if he bent and halted we would stop and he could have a few minutes to regroup. Only once he would let go sideways did I look at lowering his head. If he did not want to bend I would sue the rein so his eyes were no longer level on the horizon (presuming flat land here!). This made him pay attention without me having to 'get big.'

I then repeated until he was able to bend and halt or lower when ridden and relaxed.

Eventually, it did transfer to ridden in that when he went to go solid on me I could take just the one rein and ask him to bend. To allow his head round he HAD to let go half the muscles in his neck. If he remained tense I would use the rein so his eyes were no longer level with the horizon. This seemed key to him, he preferred for his eyes to be level.

Some days though, even years later, if something was really alarming, sitting still was still the best thing to do. I kept a rule that as long as he was still then I would not hassle him. It became so it would probably be only once every 4 or 5 months, and if I was on the ball I could just tip his head to get his attention. If I missed it there was always standing still.
 
I have a particular whistle that I used to use on Alf to let him know there was a treat incoming. I started doing it because he used to take off in a panic bucking when I got on him. He doesn't do that any more, but the whistle is very useful when I need him on side, and he's being a wally! The moment he hears it, he brings his head round for the treat, which seems to snap him out of meltdown mode. If he doesn't respond to the whistle, I jump ship for my own safety!
 
milliepops said:
have ordered a clicker ;)
nothing to lose ;) except possibly my fingers, she does get a bit jaws-like about treats so I think it could be tricky to start with!
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The very first thing you teach is not to mug, I call it "face away". Bobbie will still beg for treats (even though I only treat if clicker training) but she does it with face away. Its incredibly funny watching her with people that dont know and that she thinks have treats. She starts with a small face away and then escalates it right up and starts offering them different things I've taught her in order to get a treat.
 
ihatework said:
I suppose the thing is you have had her a year (?) now? Showing some progress but not quite enough really.

I presume you are starting to think of long term - how long and how much you keep investing?

Having thought more about it I do think clicker training is the next step.
I wouldn’t rule out a hefty dose of Bute or xraying but it depends on how much you believe in her and want to invest.

Cortez did make me laugh though re stupid horses, they are definitely out there!
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well, yeah, kind of. Realistically I can't afford to buy anything else anyway, so it's either keep on going with her (my preference as she's a sweet horse and i like her) or pts and pull millie out of the field to keep K company. But millie is doing well on 24/7 turnout and she has a buddy who is currently having a very nice time as a retired horse that I would then also have to pts as she would be homeless, so it's not really a good solution! lol!

I think Cortez's suggestion definitely has merit, I still haven't managed to explain to Salty about halting on the bit :rolleyes: yet she has a super nice mouth all the rest of the time. It just does not compute. But she's learnt all her sideways, that is quite decent, she is now forward having been through a very sticky backward phase... if there was literally no progress it would be a decision that made itself.

I've got loads of danilon in the cupboard, could I shovel that in instead of bute? I'm not ignoring the x ray suggestion, have to pay off Kira's regumate first ;)
 
Have you looked at any of the TRT (Tristian tucker) stuff? He starts out with teaching the horse how to handle itself when stressed, which seems like it might be useful and Red-1s post is on similar lines.
 
Alibear said:
Have you looked at any of the TRT (Tristian tucker) stuff? He starts out with teaching the horse how to handle itself when stressed, which seems like it might be useful and Red-1s post is on similar lines.
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yeah, I also watched one of his demos and I tried the patterns he did then with another horse that had a bit of a flight-first, think-later instinct.

the price of the program is stupendously off putting though...
 
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