Horses that check out, mentally

milliepops said:
yeah, I also watched one of his demos and I tried the patterns he did then with another horse that had a bit of a flight-first, think-later instinct.

the price of the program is stupendously off putting though...
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Horse and Country TV showed a series of his which I think would be enough to get you on the right path? There's also a lot of his videos on YouTube. I'd think you've got enough experience behind you to give it go from there?
 
Do you know much about TRT? I went to a demo last year and found it pretty interesting, teaching the horse a pattern of behaviour it can turn to when faced with stress. It made me realise I often protect BBP and avoid stress, rather than having taught him how to think it through and how to control his own body. No idea if it’s working but the other day when the hay tractor arrived he trotted towards it in his field, rather than belting around trying to get away from it. He is also one who locks solid and heart pounds if he is prevented from escaping/exploding, he has never really used his brain to figure out how to cope. (He does have RER which doesn’t help). If I demand too much of him during liberty or clicker training he switches off and won’t look towards me, he will look away and shut down from trying. So I learned to always ask not demand, and always reward a try, even if not correct, that way he never stops trying for me and always thinks he’s the cleverest horse at the yard (he probably is, he learns so much faster than the others, but has less common sense and more flight instinct than they do I guess)
 
milliepops said:
yeah, I also watched one of his demos and I tried the patterns he did then with another horse that had a bit of a flight-first, think-later instinct.

the price of the program is stupendously off putting though...
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Ah cross posted! There is plenty of it accessible for free online.
 
Ahh. I can't get H&C any more so didn't know about that, I will have a dig around on Youtube :) i definitely thought it was a good approach which is different to the traditional kind of desensitisation that I think (very badly done) has contributed to this problem. thanks
 
milliepops said:
yeah, I also watched one of his demos and I tried the patterns he did then with another horse that had a bit of a flight-first, think-later instinct.

the price of the program is stupendously off putting though...
Click to expand...
Check out the Buck Brannaman short videos. lots about moving the feet which may be of help to you. What does she do if you work her on long reins in the danish method? Does she zone you out on the ground and under saddle?
 
I'm just here to echo LW's suggestion of clicker training :). Doing it with M taught her how to problem solve rather than just freak out and run away! It also made her more likely to want to work with me.
 
DirectorFury said:
I'm just here to echo LW's suggestion of clicker training :). Doing it with M taught her how to problem solve rather than just freak out and run away! It also made her more likely to want to work with me.
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Me three :) The young Appy was so reactive when she had been here about a month (and presumably started to come out off the total shut down sate that the second move in two months had caused, as well as a rushed backing following being out with no human contact for her firs three years!), that she could not "hear" me. We began clicker training (no clicker, just a noise I make with my mouth) and she began to relax. I used it to teach her to lower her head and to stop and lower her head when i put a hand on her withers. I find if we do a mix of things I've clicker trained her to do, then she relaxes and listens
 
I have a horsey acquaintance who had been clicker training her horse. Out on a ride, big lorry coming much too fast and she's desperately trying to get the horse to target something (anything!) to take its mind off the lorry and she accidentally pressed the clicker. Pony was so distracted looking for his treat that he completely ignored the lorry. Not exactly what she had intended but apparently she's used the clicker to get his attention since and hacking is coming on brilliantly.

Its something I keep meaning to try on my Appy who is another who hits the panic button - her most recent 'flip out' is hearing other horses when she can't see them. A vet at my old practice used clicker training to inject M (vet phobic) and I was really impressed.
 
Brill thanks everyone, lots to chew over. Really appreciate hearing about your experiences.
I'm away with work till Friday but my clicker should arrive while I'm away... I'm interested to give it a try with her and will spend my boring evenings searching out TRt vids 😁
 
We found that Richard Maxwell's explanations of the horse's left & right side brain helped together with watching some of his videos, attending a clinic demo, reading his book, helped us to understand our mare's pattern of behaviour, why she was doing it, how to work through it both groundwork & ridden. He explains things very logically & simply.
 
Hi Milliepops, my horse does this lots, esp when loading - it's so sad to think of what they must have been through to get to that stage. Clicker training is AMAZING for this, because it encourages them to think in a different way to any other way of training - if you go down a richard maxwell (or any other) it's all more of the same, pushing them around to get them to do what we want in response to pressure etc. But clicker training empowers them to do stuff that they're comfortable with. Often if you teach a really simple thing first and really embed it (my old horse liked to give kisses for exmaple, and the current one will touch a target when asked), then because it’s a positive action you can use it to break the cycle and get them to “snap out of” whatever state they’re in and come back to you. But most importantly you can also work out how to notice the signs of them zoning out before it even happens, which is nicer for both of you!
 
This is such a brilliant and well timed post with some really interesting suggestions - I've been looking for some different approaches to training my big Irish mare who is lovely when she's onside, but if there is any sort of distraction, or if she just doesn't want to do what I'm asking, she has a total meltdown and massively over-reacts to any sort of correction. Once she's in that heightened/distracted/worried state, there's no getting through to her and she'll walk through/over any handler, and has no self preservation when ridden. This can also happen when the farrier is nailing on her hinds - she just rips her feet away and tries to walk off (usual vet/physio/chiro checks done). I need help on keeping her focus and attention with me, so following with interest - sorry for jumping on your post OP but do you mind me asking where everyone would start with clicker training?
 
Cornish - easiest thing to start with is usually to touch something on command. It can be anything - I use a food stirring stick sometimes, or a ball, or you could use the end of a whip (as long as you don't plan on also using it to hit your horse with, as that would be very confusing). Very easy way to start, because usually if it's held near-ish they automatically sniff it, and then you click and treat, and just keep repeating. If they look in your hands/pockets for the treat rather than repeating the behaviour, you just completely ignore that and wait for them to touch the target again, before clicking and treating. You can do all this over a barrier, like a stable door, if you want to so that they are more focussed on the target than your pockets.

Once target-touching is in place, you can start moving the target around, do it on command, etc - then when really settled with that you can teach them to station at the target (stand still with it on command) or use the target to help overcome scary stuff, e.g. I would do target training near the ramp in the first instance with a horse who doesn't like ramps - gets them focussing on something they like instead of on the scary thing.

However, I do recommend watching some videos first, e.g. Connection Training are brilliant. It's easier to learn first than have to correct mistakes (e.g. some horses get a bit over enthusiastic at first, so it's good to learn how to deal with that!).
 
Clicker training is brilliant, and I've seen so many different animals trained using it, it's really incredible. I have been slowly introducing it to Buzz (with an eventual aim to be able to hold his head for worming, he knows he can put it much higher than me!) but I also accidently clicker trained his carrot stretches too (by clicking when he was in the right place, it was just so ingrained in me that correct behaviour was a click!), now if I stand in the right place and point he'll do them himself, click, treat :) I use my tongue too but a different click to one I use for changing paces when lunging etc. I need to do some target clicker training too to see how quickly he picks that up then I will work on the worming situation :)

We also have a Hannovarian on our yard who is also a little bit dim!
 
I think before i tried anything else i would just want her spine x raying and a scope doing. I only mention this cautiously as Goof used to do this when he was suffering from the ulcerative colitis(but before we knew what the issue was) a mouse farting in japan could set him off and if he froze and i pushed him to move he would EXPLODE.

also i know you will be really on top of checks but have you tried a different saddle for a few rides? only mention this as little Raf has been VERY tense and spooky since exercise sheet-gate(strap broke, he bolted through 2 fences, i came off and saddle went under him) and i assumed it was just residual worry from that but it turns out his saddle was very slightly pinching(could only have been a couple of weeks as all was checked at xmas time) and having swapped saddle he is back to his usual totally chilled self who only does minor snorts at things, rather than a pony bunched and looking for trouble which is how he had become very quickly.

if all checks turn up nothing then defo watch all the TRT videos on youtube- ive been working through them with Raf after the exercise sheet debacle to get over the fear of flapping and stuff behind him and it really sinks in so quickly. I havent paid for any of the lessons, just watched and listened and learnt for free via youtube which i think you are also totally capable of doing :)
 
yup all noted thanks :) Vet is coming next week for K's teeth and top up vaccs so will discuss it again.
she's just the same in my hacking saddle which is a Wow so totally different feel, and as she's the same in the stable I genuinely don't think it's tack related.
 
Ah ok thats good re having the 2 saddles :) that at least ticks saddles off the list.

Raf was never twitchy in hand only under saddle where as Goof was twitchy all the time, so worth a work up just to eliminate a few things possibly (but obvs could just be her rather than pain)

hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
MP I'd be interested in what/ if the vets find anything if you don't mind updating, Topaz has been checked all over, over the years and has been given a clean bill of health every time (no ulcers, no KS, sound etc) so we've put it down to her early handing or possibly just her genetics...

I'm really fascinated by the idea of clicker training after reading this thread, so might have a go myself and see what improvements we can achieve :).
 
will do. TBH although I obviously want her to be a-ok it would be a bit of a relief (personally) if there is something to be found after all this time because she's a massive puzzle as the moment and I can't quite understand why, otherwise, she isn't making progress. I'm all for taking things at the speed the horse needs to go, and I know Kira's progress feels super speedy since I got to grips with her funny brain but I can't tell you how much this one has me tearing my hair out feeling useless o_O
 
Reading this with interest as I have one similar, fixates them explodes if you try and get them to move or do anything really. Quite a sharp horse and has been since a youngster. I had been considering clicker training to 'bring her back' to me so with the feed back on this thread I think I'll look into it more.
I totally understand you frustration, mine is also a lovely horse that clearly has some talent but sadly not the brain to use it !
 
haha! I think kira would have liked that. I had to teach her to noseboop things when she was busy switching off and refusing to engage with the things she was frightened of ;)
 
Finding this thread so interesting! I have one that zones out when she can't cope but not when ridden. I'd kind of accepted it and just wait for her to come round because she's never silly with it she just snaps back to earth but now I've ordered a clicker 😊
 
I had a bit of a play with my two last night, just trying to work on clicking and treating when they look away, rather than mugging for treats - something must have sunk in as my friend was very puzzled to report that my mare kept looking round to her shoulder this morning when she popped some hay over the door! She's obviously made the connection between turning away and food lol! Targets next I think...
 
As I mentioned earlier that I had accidently clicker trained Buzz's carrot stretches, turns out if I just say down he'll do the stretch down to his fetlocks on his own 😅 he's a smart boy, hoping i can use this to get him back to me when he has a "omg what is that over there!!" Moment!
 
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