Hot branding to be banned in Scotland

So let me get this straight.

This ban is supported by WHO? Vets, who if there was a condition that they alone could do the work, would support it. Can't think why, can you?

Animal Welfare charities who are only ever interested in their own promotion, and lets not forget the fund raising aspect here.

Those who own, champion the cause of the branded horse, and actually know what they're talking about are swept aside, without a second thought.

The whole world's gone mad. We're administered and advised by, a collection of congenital idiots.

Alec.
 
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Please note this is only in Scotland, where (I don't think) we don't have herds of wild ponies the same as Exmoor/Dartmoor etc do!

the watcher- do warmbloods bred in the UK hot brand? For some reason I thought it was just foreign WB studs that did, but I am very clueless when it comes to breeding/WBs! :o
 
So by their logic, why not ban freeze branding as well as this the same damn thing... just one is hot and one is cold. They both burn.

Utter madness! It will be fine for those who just have normal riding horses but what about the branded breeds and the wild forest/moor ponies.

And also.... microchipping isn't pain free either!
 
FigJam said:
Please note this is only in Scotland, where (I don't think) we don't have herds of wild ponies the same as Exmoor/Dartmoor etc do!

the watcher- do warmbloods bred in the UK hot brand? For some reason I thought it was just foreign WB studs that did, but I am very clueless when it comes to breeding/WBs! :o
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been with two WBs for branding they didnt realy flinch so i dont think its cruel, however I supose the scots have got to find there politicans something to do now that their no longer able to boss the rest of the UK about now gordo and his cronies arent in power :D
 
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i think it is so unfair on the scottish breeders their stock wont be branded but those over the border will be, will it make scottish bred horses less valuable?

i havent seen it being done but been told by a breeder that the foals dont flinch for the branding but did for the microchip:(
 
there are herds of semi-feral exmoor and highland ponies in Scotland. Don't think the highlands are branded but of course, exmoors are.

I have exmoors and can see both points of view. I also have a luso who was hot branded-none of them have problems with their brands but I have seen brands done badly that erupt year after year. Also not all brands can be clearly seen and not all clearly seen at all times of year. I think that the people who run herds of these ponies and who are doing such a good job are capable of deciding for themselves and should be allowed to. I am not of the opinion that freeze branding is much, if any, kinder.
 
I too can't see the difference between hot branding and freeze marking, the effect is still burning a horse to cause permanent marking. I am not against either (though personally I prefer hot branding due to a nasty experience freeze marking a grey)

My Bavarian WB was branded in Scotland, there are quite a few stud that will breed WB that are technically supposed to be branded. Now they won't be able to do that.

What confuses me is why are the BRITISH veterinary association weighing in saying it should be banned in Scotland but no other country in the British Isles? WTF is it cruel in Scotland but it's fine and dandy in England and Wales?! The ruling needs to be country wide (with a consideration of exempting wild ponies) or not at all.
 
Silverspring said:
I too can't see the difference between hot branding and freeze marking, the effect is still burning a horse to cause permanent marking. I am not against either (though personally I prefer hot branding due to a nasty experience freeze marking a grey)

My Bavarian WB was branded in Scotland, there are quite a few stud that will breed WB that are technically supposed to be branded. Now they won't be able to do that.

What confuses me is why are the BRITISH veterinary association weighing in saying it should be banned in Scotland but no other country in the British Isles? WTF is it cruel in Scotland but it's fine and dandy in England and Wales?! The ruling needs to be country wide (with a consideration of exempting wild ponies) or not at all.
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maybe it will just a case of traveling in to england to get them done if they pass the stupid pointless law ..
 
This ruling puts Scottish bred Warmbloods which are inspected as foals and branded with the ''quality mark' for that breed at a disadvantage in the market place.
I hardly think stock potentially worth many thousands would be hot branded if it caused them any problems whatsoever.
Surely the ruling should be EU wide or not at all.

More breeders complain about microchipping foals than the hot branding--my neighbour described it as ''first wrestle your foal'' with his TB which can then cause problems for vet visits in the future.

Freezebranding can be problematic as well with each number/letter being held on separately for quite some time depending on horses coat colour
 
They both burn for heavens sake!

I saw one clip of a pony being branded and the animal didn't flinch at all. I think it was a segment from Countryfile in 2003?
 
Im glad this is being banned. I dislike freeze branding as well (after having my very first pony done - his reaction was not one I would ever like to see again). I've had a Bavarian WB who had a brand and my current horse is also meant to have two brands (cant see them though...). Pointless IMO. We have no herds of truly wild horses up here so dont need to do it. From a welfare point of view - of course it must hurt like hell! No horse tends to just take it happily, it would bloody hurt us so would hurt them too.
 
Tharg said:
With hot branding it hurts for a few seconds only.
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I don't see what the big deal is about branding. And i would never keep a horse without having it freezemarked. What is a few seconds of pain for a lifetime of security I ask you????

I personally don't know what all the hoo haa is about. Next it will be considered cruel to hook a fish, or smack a horse with a whip or drag a dog about by a lead round its neck. For goodness sake what is the world coming to??? Lets get a bit of perspective.

I do agree with the fact that hot branding is not always visible. Sometimes my horses brand sticks out and it always amazes me that sometimes I can't see it, then the next day its gone again and you can't see it at all. Suppose it depends on temperature and how his coat lies and whether the sun catches it or not.
 
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The Dutch outlawed branding in 2001 - it doesn't seem to have hurt their position in the market. ;) Other warmblood organisations no longer make it mandatory.

I've seen horses branded at warmblood inspections that barely seemed to notice, I've seen others where it's been well and truly c****d up.

I can see the argument about feral/wild horses, or even horses living on open range that need to be identified from a distance (although, really, where does that happen in the world now?), but in this day and age of micro chipping, computer records and DNA testing it doesn't serve the identifying purposes it used to. I can also see the argument re freeze branding for individual identification but there is no such argument for hip branding.
 
Yes they get over it, but how many people here would willingly submit a centimeter of their skin to be burned? Eh? A lot of supporters focus on the fact the horses don't appear to be in much pain when either freeze or especially hot branding is done to them. Nothing to do with horses being prey animals at all? If they show distress under duress they are meat. basically, it's what they think after all. They have no concept of 'good' or 'bad' discomfort. They only know to try and hide vunerability until it becomes extreme.

F/C branding and microchipping all hurt. The difference is the chipping method lasts until the injection is done. Freezing lasts until it is done. Hot brand hurts until it heals.

I'll have mine injected everytime.
 
Snaptie I'm pretty certain that with hot branding the nerves are very quickly burnt away.

There is no scar tissue with freeze marking and I wouldn't put it past someone to use hair dye.

With micro chipping it would involve a lot more hassle and holding onto the animal to read the chip, especially if it migrates.

DNA testing doesn't come cheap.
 
snaptie said:
Yes they get over it, but how many people here would willingly submit a centimeter of their skin to be burned? Eh? A lot of supporters focus on the fact the horses don't appear to be in much pain when either freeze or especially hot branding is done to them. Nothing to do with horses being prey animals at all? If they show distress under duress they are meat. basically, it's what they think after all. They have no concept of 'good' or 'bad' discomfort. They only know to try and hide vunerability until it becomes extreme.

F/C branding and microchipping all hurt. The difference is the chipping method lasts until the injection is done. Freezing lasts until it is done. Hot brand hurts until it heals.

I'll have mine injected everytime.
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pray animals yes understand that bit however after taking two WB foals for the grading /branding i was worried that it would hurt them but the truth is they didnt seem to notice and as well handled confident youngsters im sure they were very capable of reacting to any discomfort and would.. neither flinched or altered their behaviour after the opperation... have you any personal exprience of hot branding or is it just opinion?
 
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perfect11s said:
pray animals yes understand that bit however after taking two WB foals for the grading /branding i was worried that it would hurt them but the truth is they didnt seem to notice and as well handled confident youngsters im sure they were very capable of reacting to any discomfort and would.. neither flinched or altered their behaviour after the opperation... have you any personal exprience of hot branding or is it just opinion?
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I have witnessed all three hence my opinion being formed.

Of course a horse experiences discomfort via branding. Just because it doesn't jump and rear does not suggest it's a tad tickilish for them and that's it. The animal feels a fly land on their skin but cannot feel a burning iron applied with pressure?

Look at their eyes and ears and not their bodily reaction.
 
The feeling is short lived. Badly fitting tack and inadequate fitness of an animal presents a greater danger to well being.
 
Tharg said:
The feeling is short lived. Badly fitting tack and inadequate fitness of an animal presents a greater danger to well being.
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Having sternly (and correctly, as they found out) addressed people rather older than me about their horses being improperly bitted/tacked/looked after etc. I'm beginning to feel like my lack of posting means I'm a non-entity here. (And please, I'm being sensible in order to get the best form and results out of a horse before the bunny-hugging accusations begin, as I fear they may).

Tharg, I understand where you come from but this is a bit of a change of subject to the initial query. I've explained my reasons for disagreeing with hot branding directly without bringing up other subjects or issues. Expanding on the subject is wonderful but I don't seem to have read anything solid about why it must be done initially.
 
Why must it be done?

Let us assume for a moment that those who breed warmblood breeds that are still branded would like to be able to compete in international markets in respect of sales and stud profiles. What potential effect could this ban have on those breeders - quite simply their horses will have to travel to be branded elsewhere in order to have the physical appearance expected by potential purchasers internationally.

It is a bit like the slaughter arguement in the US - yes, heart warmingly they don't slaughter horses for consumption there any longer - they just put them on tranport for thousands of miles to be slaughtered elsewhere

Whether you agree with branding or not, until it is banned internationally, prohibiting it in one area of the UK is another blow at our home breeding programmes.
 
I have lived in Scotland and have never heard of people hot branding, or cold branding, though there may be a few.
I understand that the advent of microchipping has been put forward as an argument against continuation of hot branding, but as there is no secure protocol to prevent stolen horses which are micro-chipped being traced, the whole MC argument is tenuous, I do not have my horse chipped, it already costs £55 to get him jabbed annually, for a vaccine that must cost very little, I simply have to stop somewhere.
I do not imagine that anyone wanting to steal him would bother to check if he was chipped. If he was unrugged and branded on both sides, they might chose another horse in the field, but as no horse in his field is branded, he would have a ten to one chance of avoiding being stolen. I think it is one risk I have to live with.
I tend to agree with the suggestion that vets would be the first to support branding by vets, presumably on welfare grounds, just like they still do pin firing in racehorses, a practice which also has doubtful results.
 
snaptie said:
Expanding on the subject is wonderful but I don't seem to have read anything solid about why it must be done initially.
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warmbloods aside, there is an argument for the branding of semi-feral ponies. have a look on the exmoor pony talk forum for some very good arguments for and against by the people who are protecting one of our rare breeds. if it's happened in Scotland it will probably follow elsewhere. for anyone who doesnt believe they are feral I gently suggest you visit the countryside where they are kept in bad weather and try and identify one at a distance without using the brand.
 
snaptie said:
Tharg, I understand where you come from but this is a bit of a change of subject to the initial query. I've explained my reasons for disagreeing with hot branding directly without bringing up other subjects or issues. Expanding on the subject is wonderful but I don't seem to have read anything solid about why it must be done initially.
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To really explore something a person must look at the wider context.

Just because someone doesn't like something is not reason enough to stop it.

It is done as a means of identification, the horse does feel it at first but as I have already typed the pain is over in seconds.

It must also hurt the horse to have the MC/injections done, should these be stopped?

I would prefer to use as many means as possible to secure identity to prevent theft.
 
Why is hot branding to banned in Scotland?
Why is fireing banned in the Uk but not Ireland?

Do horses not feel the same pain in each country they are in then? - ohh best book a visit to the dentist in wales then - cos it does not half hurt in England......
 
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