How do I breed a racehorse. Advice for beginner needed.

Clodagh said:
My Grandpa, the ultimate hobby breeder, owned two mares, one at a time. He bred about 8 foals and one won at the Goodwood festival, so it can be done. He also ended up with 7 rubbish ones that he gave away, I must add.
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^^^^This is the more likely scenario. even knowledgeable owners steeped in tradition of racing struggle to breed from good mares.
Only one in thee make it to the racecourse, of course you can breed a slow horse and race it, but really, that is not a great spectacle.
Your daughter will not learn much about breeding as every time there is a problem you will have to pay a professional to sort it out.
There are courses with work experience which will be more intense and beneficial.
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An owner of mine succesfully bred a winner from his first foal, as an accountant he worked out it took £10k to get it to a broken 3yo cantering and ready to go into training. The horse was in training all winter and won first time out in the spring as a 4yo - this cost £15k.

The start up costs were -
Purchase of mare - £6k (this mare was still in training, but as a retired racehorse she would have been £3k max, no pedigree but won several OR 120ish).This cost not included as he raced her before he bred from her.
Stallion - £1k (below advertised fee, was already proven, and became quite fashoinable over the next couple of years, only then to die!).
Vets fees at stud - £250. This is a standard all in cost at most studs.
The rest of that 10k was made up by my fees(cheap compared to most), and standard vets fees such as tet/flu/teeth.

The mare is now 16 and is probably worth nothing - you will find others like her about.
The foal in question went to the sales after his win and had a genuine bid at £50k.

When looking at pedigrees anything with winners through the first 2 generations are worth a look, make sure the genes are filtering down to the generation you are looking to produce. All pedigrees have to start somewhere. Black type is nice, but remember in the NH market you have 4yrs over which the page is going to change - find out where the youngstock from the family is in training before you buy the mare.
There are lots of reasonably priced NH stallions around, you do not have to spend load to be fashoinable - fashoins will change before the foal gets to the track anyway.
 
MrsD123 said:
Deirdre Johnstone was being asked about horses who were not in training any more, obviously they don;t sell winners, they keep them.
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Not true! A racehorse is usually always for sale for the right money. If winners were never sold, then how do you explain the top lots yesterday at Tatts - all were HITS or HOTS!

WRT what was said about getting anything from Mark Johnston - if it's run a lot and won with him, it's a tough cookie and worth it as a breeding prospect, I wouldn't have one to race on with or turn into a riding horse though.....
 
Just to say thanks to everyone for all the support and input on my plans. So many decent people out there you just sometimes forget.

Had a few really nice PMs from people and I am starting to change direction a little in that I am thinking finding someone who has the right facilities to keep a mare and see it at least through to foaling is the way forward. So I am thinking if I could find someone ideally in the North-East and have an arrangement where they look after the horse and I do the investing, this would save a lot of money to spend on a better sire and mare, although this way you find yourself losing full ownership its probably the sensible way forward. How do you find a really nice person who is interested and lives locally, well hopefully this thread leads to that ! Actually one very nice lady has been in touch through the PMs and sounds perfect, knowledgeable, enthusiastic, even has a beatifully bred Mare available, along with all the facilities, unfortunately she lives a bit of a hike away, as I explained to her I will have to have a look and see if there is anything else available locally before I come back to her. So thats where I am now please keep posting I am learning and enjoying learning all the time. Thanks again.

Rgds GMT
 
I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT
 
GMT said:
I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT
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I posted the answer, on this, or your other thread, I'm not sure! :o

Go into Weatherby's website. I can't remember how I did it, but you type in your mares breeding (sire and dam), you pay your 50 bob, or thereabouts, and up will come the results of what others have done. Many of these others will be highly experienced, and from them you may learn. There's a BUT attached to it, and it's a huge but.......

The stallion who sired your mare, may well be of little consequence. It's the Black Type, within your mare's pedigree which matters, and just how many race winning progeny have her first, second and third dam produced.

There are breeding agents who will offer advice, but the problem is that they may well represent a stallion, and attempt to head you, in that direction! It's a highly complex business, and as you will gather from the sound advice offered so far, you will, at best, lessen the chances of costly failure, and that's all that you'll manage!!

Good luck!!

A.
 
GMT said:
I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT
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Some studs use Goldmine and enicks. Often they are available on their websites. For example, Pour Moi, the winner of this year's Epsom Derby, will be standing his first season at stud in 2012 at Coolmore in Ireland. If you click on this link http://www.coolmore.com/stallions-view.php?list=ireland&id=127 you will see under his conformation photo links to both of these. If you follow them, and type in a mares name, they will show you what the cross looks like and should tell you how successful that nick has been. What it can't and won't tell you though, is if it is a good physical and temperamental match.
 
Dizzle said:
Hi, sorry to hijack but how do you get a coloured racehorse? I thought TB's were any solid colour?[/QUOTE

A quick anwser I bred him hes 7/8ths Tb we have introduced the Tobiano gene to the TB along with a good bone, & feet lovely temprement and an easy to train attitude our broodmares have all come to us out of training and their owners wanted them to have good homes they did not want them to go to the sale's we have two from one owner who is a tyre magnet he does not like his horses sold on as they carry his name he also only races them as flat horses and mainly two years olds so they are re homed at 4
we are breeding for National hunt
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I also advise caution. Breeding can be a seriously expensive business. I live next door to a stud in Newmarket and I've had a lot of fun over the last year seeing the horses foal and seeing them grow up. I absolutely LOVE the foals and I can well believe that the process of breeding and training and maybe even winning is a buzz that can't be matched.

However. ;)

Breeding a truly successful racehorse is often a completely freak event. I've watched the stud next door put Grade 1 winning mares (who were expensive) to stallions with very expensive fees and get very average foals. That may be a risk that you are willing to take. I would strongly strongly encourage you to spend your money on a foal rather than a mare and a stallion. You buy what you want and you get what you breed.

By all means, get involved with a local stud. Go to the birth. Follow the foals from then on. But pick a foal that looks like the real deal - otherwise you are gambling the 10K you budget for from day 1.

If you'd rather do it your way, then by all means, give it a go. But make sure that you are 100% prepared to kiss the money goodbye with no returns whatsoever. You may lose the mare and the foal (I've seen it happen sadly) and be left with nothing and a stonking vet bill to comfort you. Racing money is silly money and you've got to be prepared to burn it basically, you can't see it as an investment of any kind. I would also encourage both you and your daughter to spend a good week on a stud farm during foaling season to see what it really involves and how much experience racing breeders have and need.
 
kit279 said:
I also advise caution. Breeding can be a seriously expensive business. I live next door to a stud in Newmarket and I've had a lot of fun over the last year seeing the horses foal and seeing them grow up. I absolutely LOVE the foals and I can well believe that the process of breeding and training and maybe even winning is a buzz that can't be matched.

However. ;)

Breeding a truly successful racehorse is often a completely freak event. I've watched the stud next door put Grade 1 winning mares (who were expensive) to stallions with very expensive fees and get very average foals. That may be a risk that you are willing to take. I would strongly strongly encourage you to spend your money on a foal rather than a mare and a stallion. You buy what you want and you get what you breed.

By all means, get involved with a local stud. Go to the birth. Follow the foals from then on. But pick a foal that looks like the real deal - otherwise you are gambling the 10K you budget for from day 1.

If you'd rather do it your way, then by all means, give it a go. But make sure that you are 100% prepared to kiss the money goodbye with no returns whatsoever. You may lose the mare and the foal (I've seen it happen sadly) and be left with nothing and a stonking vet bill to comfort you. Racing money is silly money and you've got to be prepared to burn it basically, you can't see it as an investment of any kind. I would also encourage both you and your daughter to spend a good week on a stud farm during foaling season to see what it really involves and how much experience racing breeders have and need.
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Sensible advice which will not be taken, unfortunately.
 
A little presumptious Mrs D surely !

I appreciatte and consider every well meant post on here. Going ahead and failing would not be because I havent taken onboard well meant advice but because of a passion for the sport and the acceptance that things might well go wrong not absorbing that passion.

If you dont have a dream etc etc !
 
Fine to have a dream etc, but first you need to have some experience. We are talking about flesh and blood.
To be frank,you don't know anything [enough] about horses or the TB industry.
Yesterday, I had some lady come to ride my horse, she was struggling to get on and to dismount, she was so lacking in knowledge, she had no idea she could not ride.
You obviously know how to drive a car, do you think they would let you loose at Monacco F1?
 
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Cmon MrsD be fair.

We have two horses at present, one an ex-racehorse who through lots of money and care now lives a fantastic life, despite a vet standing over her shaking his head 3 years ago and saying she would have to be PTS if she didnt improve in an hour. Any horse I am responsible for will be looked after. You cant tar everyone with the same brush MrsD.

Rgds GMT
 
GMT said:
Cmon MrsD be fair.

We have two horses at present, one an ex-racehorse who through lots of money and care now lives a fantastic life, despite a vet standing over her shaking his head 3 years ago and saying she would have to be PTS if she didnt improve in an hour. Any horse I am responsible for will be looked after. You cant tar everyone with the same brush MrsD.

Rgds GMT
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I don't have any tar or any brush, if anyone asks for advice on how to breed a racehorse, I tell it as I see it.
If you were in business you would not keep "lame ducks" you would get rid of them. you want a racehorse, therefore you want to win, not keep a field full of "write offs"
There is nothing to stop you breeding horses, just don't ask for advice on how to breed a racehorse, ie an animal whose career is to win on the track.
As long as you can afford to fill your fields with nice well fed types, good luck.
 
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GMT said:
MrsD

"lame ducks" "get rid", I thought we were talking about "flesh & blood"

Please !
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Exactly, I am trying to bring you out of your dreamland into reality, breeders cannot fill their fields with the "losers", they have to fork out hard cash to bring on the "winner", so EVERY foal they breed to keep is a liability, and will cost maybe £15K, most people do not have that kind of cash when multiplied by ten.
 
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Totally agree with Mrs D.

Although my concerns aren't so much as you parting yourself from 10k, as to adding to the already saturated horse population which is resulting in the increasingly common situation in this thread -

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=499631

If you want a racehorse, buy one at the sales for 10k.

If you want your daughter to see foals being born, send her to a local stud to watch.

But please don't bring another slow racehorse into the world unless you are guaranteeing said foal a home for life.
 
At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn
 
GMT said:
At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most
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I feel the need to stop you right there! Realistically, this is not correct. The reason that good broodmares and good stallions cost thousands and thousands of pounds is simply that you have a better chance of breeding a fast racehorse if the parents are fast. Both genetically and temperamentally.

It is NOT enough to have speed. Winning racehorses have more about them - they have to have the winning personality.

Therefore, if you set out with a limited budget, you will realistically have to buy lesser quality mares and put them to lesser quality stallions. I do understand that £10K is a lot of money but it is absolutely bargain basement in terms of what it will buy you in terms of stallion fees and calibre of broodmare - please don't be offended by this, it is the difference between buying a Ford Mondeo and a BMW Z4 and just the way of the world and racing particularly!

Don't be deceived when I say that breeding is a lottery. It is a lottery in terms that even if you spent ££££££ on mare and stallion, you could still get a wonky foal that was conformationally so poor that it would never race or the foal might die. But the lottery that drives racing is the myth that you can get something out of nothing - ie. take a poor mare and breed to a poor stallion and get a Shergar.

When that actually happens is so rare that they make Disney films about it eg. Seabiscuit!!!

If as you say, you are motivated to have the experience itself and do not care about the outcome (and please, as poster before me have said, you are prepared to give the foal a home for life), then by all means take the chance. But you are following a well worn path - one that more experienced people cripple themselves financially and emotionally going through!
 
Just want to butt in that many a horse with great potential hasnt shown its true ability as a) it needed more time to mature and was written off or b) it wasnt trained very well! The training plays a HUGE part in the actual success of the horse, whatever you start with. Horses are individuals and sometimes this gets overlooked in the training process with detrimental results. Trainers get their monthly fee from the owner whatever happens and naturally favour and spend their time and effort on certain horses rather than others.
 
I used to work in racing, we sold our rejects at the sales for £5K, so when a lady told me her horse cost a lot [it was her daughter's dressage horse] I asked how much, she said £5K, well I kinda choked. It may have seemed a lot to her, but it was nothing to me, we bought most of our horses or about for £50K [National Hunt], untried in the UK.
Obviously, flat horses are a good bit more.
 
GMT said:
At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn
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Hi Glenn, I've been involved off and on in racing for a long time, and I know several owner breeders. To a man they have stopped, because of the lack of return and the expenses of keeping a horse that may not be fast enough to race, nor have the temperament/soundness due to being on the track to be turned round into a viable proposition for an alternative future.

I understand your enthusiasm, it's shared by thousands of people. The sad reality is it's a rarity to breed a successful racehorse.

What if you have a still born foal, or a deformed foal, what will you do with the mare? Will you breed her again?

What if you have a cracking looking foal - will you breed her again because 'your' baby is gorgeous? And make no mistake, many many people fall into that trap.

Then what do you do if they are all slow, or unable to stand up to training, or have temperaments which make them dificult to work with?

Do you know how much it is to have a horse in training with a decent trainer who will give your homebred baby a chance?

I absolutely understand your dream, but if you care about horses at all then you shouldn't do this with your self-confessed lack of knowledge.

I'm sorry. I see so many of these horses end up at the botton end of the market. I don't for a minute think any of them were bred to go to slaughter abroad, or in the UK if they're lucky. There doesn't need to be any more.

You're as likely to win the lottery as breed a champ racer in the way you are going about it. As I said, I don't care what you do with your money, but I do care that you might be bringing another unwanted and needless life into the world.

This is not meant to be aggressive, and I'm sorry if it comes across like that. But please heed what I'm saying. :(
 
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