How do I breed a racehorse. Advice for beginner needed.

Changes said:
Hi Glenn, I've been involved off and on in racing for a long time, and I know several owner breeders. To a man they have stopped, because of the lack of return and the expenses of keeping a horse that may not be fast enough to race, nor have the temperament/soundness due to being on the track to be turned round into a viable proposition for an alternative future.

I understand your enthusiasm, it's shared by thousands of people. The sad reality is it's a rarity to breed a successful racehorse.

What if you have a still born foal, or a deformed foal, what will you do with the mare? Will you breed her again?

What if you have a cracking looking foal - will you breed her again because 'your' baby is gorgeous? And make no mistake, many many people fall into that trap.

Then what do you do if they are all slow, or unable to stand up to training, or have temperaments which make them dificult to work with?

Do you know how much it is to have a horse in training with a decent trainer who will give your homebred baby a chance?

I absolutely understand your dream, but if you care about horses at all then you shouldn't do this with your self-confessed lack of knowledge.

I'm sorry. I see so many of these horses end up at the botton end of the market. I don't for a minute think any of them were bred to go to slaughter abroad, or in the UK if they're lucky. There doesn't need to be any more.

You're as likely to win the lottery as breed a champ racer in the way you are going about it. As I said, I don't care what you do with your money, but I do care that you might be bringing another unwanted and needless life into the world.

This is not meant to be aggressive, and I'm sorry if it comes across like that. But please heed what I'm saying. :(
Click to expand...

I so very agree with all of the above. There's a little horse in my field who the owner is going to ship out to Qatar to a very uncertain future because he thinks it is worth a lot as a racehorse (because HE BRED IT) when it may not be worth anything at all.

I'd feel quite differently about what you're proposing if you had your own land - that at least offers a little more security for the foal and mare. But I know that livery costs can be and are crippling especially over years, training costs even more so (seriously a not-very-successful-trainer will charge you £40-50 per DAY!!!), and I've seen a lot of horses go on to bad outcomes. And I don't mean death, which is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse.
 
We have a horse in training and I can assure you there are good trainers that will do a very good ob for £25 -£30 per day both flat or national hunt.
I started out without much knowledge I have quickly learnt a lot! and I would guess a lot more to Jo bird is right some trainers will be very selective to certain owners and horses she is not talking rubbish! I have used three trainers aand I can assure you they are all very different the ones you want to avoid are the gamberling yards they are not interested in anything but making money for themselves
I think if you got £5K for your bad ones you were lucky we get offered free ones all the time! good ones as well and non starters I would not consider a broodmare that has come from a mare line that is unproven I would want to see as many winners and progeny that have won.
 
I don't necessarily think its a bad thing for the OP to try and breed a racehorse, if that's what they really want to do - provided they go into it with their eyes open to the likelihood that whatever they breed will not turn out to be successful, and that probably they will lose a lot of money along the way.

Yes its adding another horse into the flooded industry, but at least this is one that is guaranteed to be cared for and looked after responsibly rather than discarded at the sales like so many others.

What I would suggest to the OP is to look for a mare and stallion that have good conformation and good temperament as well as racing form or good breeding. Then if your foal isn't successful as a racehorse, there is a good chance it will be able to go on and have a successful career in another discipline.
 
Hi! As an owner-breeder (but my one off was for a competition horse) I can see where you're coming from. I had a great mare who was injured at pasture. She had good confirmation, was quick (brain and feet!) and extremely competetive. I couldn't afford to replace her with a five year old ready to go, so sat down and priced up breeding my own against buying one. Costs (sensibly worked out) were more or less the same over five years to get my foal to maturity and break him in. So off we went. I used a nice eventing stallion, who was a bit more laid back than my mare, she took first time and we were off!

Then at the first scan we found twins. £600 later, and one popped twin, and I waited with baited breath. When the time came, I slept at the yard for two weeks. If you want your daughter to see the fowling I suggest CCTV... My mare went in and out of first stage for bloody days- til I chucked her out in disgust (as I work full time and two hourly checks at a livery yard- even when I was sleeping in my wagon outside her box were taking their toll and I was heading towards being sacked...!) so she foaled outside, only that night the sheep went through the bottom slat of a fence, leaving a small gap through which the foal was delivered. I arrived at first light to find a foal being used as a football by the herd next door who were running him off. Mare then wouldn't feed him so we bottle fed for the first day- vet cost to come out, jab foal and milk mare and following checkups- £500 approx. Weaning was easy, I've shown the foal with success as a yearling and two year old, and he'll be out again next year as a three year old hunter. I adore him, he has a home for life with me and is a pleasure to be around. But that is because I've spent hours upon hours with him ensuring that he has manners, doing the groundwork, mouthing, longreining and taking him out and about whenever I can. It all sounds rather great, until I confess that I think he's far too quiet for what I originally wanted him for (eventing and jumping) and although he'll never be sold, he just doesn't have the sparkle that both of his parents do. Whether it will come out under saddle, I have no idea. If it does, great... All systems go, if it doesn't, I've bred a lovely happy hacker- but my hopes and dreams go with him as I'll never breed another one. Taking away the economics and what everyone has said about overbreeding (I can't comment at all on this as I bred one to replace one!) are you prepared for the disappointment that may come (may!!) if it's not what you want it to be? And is your daughter? Is there a contingency plan for it (showing/happy hacker/riding club) if it doesn't make the grade for racing- or are you going to look at it in a few years time and wonder what you were thinking... I do that occasionally when I look at Gunner, and he means everything to me!! You're welcome to come visit if you want practice btw- even my dead quiet two year old can be a pig to handle at times, I'm in Sunderland so not far from you at all.

Sorry, I'm no use on breeding racehorses, just thought a different opinion might be of use!
 
Reality is that in-foal mares are going for meat on a regular basis & if people where honest about it they would confirm that figs are up the last 2yrs. Because of the posters circumstances I still believe she is better off either buying one of these mares or a foal rather then bring yet another into this climate.
 
To be frank....you are being incredibly unrealistic! going out to buy a good well bred mare with decent confirmation, good results in her line etc will cost a few quid. Yes there are some out there for peanuts but you don't sound as if you have3 the experience or knowledge to pick them out. Secondly €2k for stud fee....forget it! TB stud fees are alot bigger than half bred stud fees...I have often noted the lower priced tbs breed more halfbreds anyway. You also need a proven sire and to know who to avoid. TB sires do not have to be approved....you could breed wind problems that will need operated on, leg trouble, soundness.

You could pick up a nice 3 year old and get it in training for that 10k and see how you like the experience. The saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy rings very true. You could pick up something nice and get it into training for a nice return at selling if it was good enough. I know pointers in the UK don't seem to make the same money here though....our winning 4 year olds in Ireland can get massive money from UK trainers. I know breeding is what you want to do but lay the foundations correctly....meet with trainers, discuss current popular stallions, be obssessive at looking at mare lines, don't expect a computer programme to pick a sire for you!!!! You have alot of homework to do to make this work
 
2k for a stud fee is realastic.
Coolmore stand multiple G1 winners in the NH sector for between 2 and 2.5 k
Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k
5k is generally the top end for a NH sire and a majority are under 3k
The OP is looking to breed a jumping horse not a derby winner
 
sallyf said:
2k for a stud fee is realastic.
Coolmore stand multiple G1 winners in the NH sector for between 2 and 2.5 k
Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k
5k is generally the top end for a NH sire and a majority are under 3k
The OP is looking to breed a jumping horse not a derby winner
Click to expand...

5K top end for a National Hunt sire???? Eh Flemensfirth, Presenting, Beneficial, Oscar, Milan, Catcher in the Rye, King's Theatre....sorry but for a proven sire at 2K budget for stud fee you are very limited and there is far more than just Coolmore in the breeding market!
 
hope you don't me saying,but, one of the biggest probs with your plan to me is the fact that you seem as if you will be dependent on other people to do the majority of the rearing, training and caring, it sounds like most of it will be done when you are not around, to control what is happening to your youngster, and question decisions.

if you really believe in your project i think to succeed you need put in 100 per cent of your own efforts, one to one attention and management could pay dividends.

do you feel you have that rare gift, a good eye for a horse, and the ability to 'marry' two horses and breed something better than the parents?
 
amage said:
5K top end for a National Hunt sire???? Eh Flemensfirth, Presenting, Beneficial, Oscar, Milan, Catcher in the Rye, King's Theatre....sorry but for a proven sire at 2K budget for stud fee you are very limited and there is far more than just Coolmore in the breeding market!
Click to expand...

Both Milan and Oscar are both 5000 euros which equates to 4,295.50 pounds
Catcher in the rye when he last stud in Ireland was 4000 euros 3,436.40pounds
Flemensfirth equates to about £8500
Presenting and Kings theatre would be considerably more but then again i doubt they would be available to anything other than the very top mares so you could count them out anyway.
There are many very good stallions in this country such as Midnight legend ,Tobougg ,Black Sam Bellamy etc etc that are all £4000 or under .
Kayf Tara who has just sired the first 2 home in the Hennesey is 5K.
And lets face it if you have a nice mare that has won a race or 2 or it a bit later in the year you wouldnt pay the advertised fee anyway so i say again there really is no need in my opinion (and it is that my opinion) to spend anymore than 2K to get a very good stallion.
I have my eye on a mutiple group 1 winning stallion first season sire for a mare here at the moment who is advertised at 3k .
She has won a couple of races so i wouldnt be expecting to pay more than 2k for the stud fee.
 
sallyf said:
Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k
Click to expand...


Possibly because the vast majority of flat breeder's outside of, oh say Turkey and India wouldn't touch Haafhd with a barge pole? He's had less than 1% black type winners to runners to date (His sole G1 winner is over fences, he has one G2 and one G3 winner on the flat....for 4 crops of racing age that's pretty poor). His yearling sales results this season were pretty dismal too. Just the fact he's being moved by Shadwell out to Breechwood Grange says his record isn't impressing them.
 
I'd like to see this outcome of this thread in a few years time!
Breeding is expensive, no doubt about that. If you have the finances that is one thing, you also need luck, time, a helping hand, luck, more money and much more luck!!
 
druid said:
Possibly because the vast majority of flat breeder's outside of, oh say Turkey and India wouldn't touch Haafhd with a barge pole? He's had less than 1% black type winners to runners to date (His sole G1 winner is over fences, he has one G2 and one G3 winner on the flat....for 4 crops of racing age that's pretty poor). His yearling sales results this season were pretty dismal too. Just the fact he's being moved by Shadwell out to Breechwood Grange says his record isn't impressing them.
Click to expand...

Totally agree Araafa is a another with the same problem .
But then again if Haafhd has sired a G1 winner over fences from 4 crops it does make him a reasonably priced possible NH sire.
Not many NH sires would manage that from there first 4 crops.
At the end of the day it is a total lottery out there anyway although the fact they have moved Haafhd to Beechwood Grange and not shipped hime off to Turkey and India like Darley and Coolmore do with there failures means they obviously still think he has something to offer.
 
*shakes head* why on earth would you want to bring another tb foal into an already massively overpopulated industry. Especially since it is clear you have little experience. What are you going to do if you breed a crap foal? keep trying whilst filling a field full of crap foals? Breeding a winner really is a lottery. Open your eyes. Sorry to be blunt but people like you are whats wrong with this industry.
 
GMT said:
At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn
Click to expand...

Just as long you absolutely do - right the way through, til every equine life YOU are responsible for ends, then that's fine. Carry on.
 
GMT said:
What I want out of this venture
The experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal. To go through the process of breeding so as to benefit my daughters career. And a little bit is so I can recieve the Gold Cup at cheltenham !
Click to expand...
Breed a sportshorse then. Something useful, so that when it doesn't win that Gold Cup or the Olympic Gold or the Badminton Trophy, then someone, somewhere, will still have a use for it. You still get the experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal, the breeding process will still give your daughter benefits for her career and the animal will have more chance of living a decent life beyond the age of 6!
 
Spring Feather said:
Breed a sportshorse then. Something useful, so that when it doesn't win that Gold Cup or the Olympic Gold or the Badminton Trophy, then someone, somewhere, will still have a use for it. You still get the experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal, the breeding process will still give your daughter benefits for her career and the animal will have more chance of living a decent life beyond the age of 6!
Click to expand...

Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
 
sallyf said:
Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
Click to expand...
Yes fine, if OP wants to breed another unwanted TB for racing, and after spending £50K, it turns out to be a slow racehorse, then maybe it can do something else, eeks! What a clever breeding program, personally I like pure TBs for one day eventing, but I would want to start them off at age four or five, not buy something at 7 year old which has not been schooled for the job, and has already proved to be pretty useless.!
I just don't think the OP has £50K to lose on the flip of a coin.
a few NH horses would make good Eventers, but not many.
 
Last edited:
sallyf said:
Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
Click to expand...
For me the biggest problem I can see is that the OPs horse, when it doesn't make it in racing, will become an "ex-racer". Unfortunately there is a lot of negativity towards ex-racers, hence they tend to sell for peanuts initially. Someone with experience and time can develop the horse to being a useful sort who could absolutely be super as a competition horse but sadly they're often not given this chance. I do often think that the low purchasing price of the horse when it comes out of racing hinders it. When people are paying just a few hundred pounds for an animal I think it can be difficult for that horse to raise it's value. When people are paying 6k or 7k these horses don't appear to be quite as dispensible as the ones selling for 400 or 500 quid because people have so much more tied up in the horse. Obviously I'm stereotyping, as you have, but I think when a horse starts with a high value once in the private market, the depreciation is far more gradual. There are too many unscrupulous buyers at the bottom end of any market and the risks for low priced horses are greater than those commanding much higher prices.
 
sallyf said:
Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said that better myself! Spot on!
 
Spring Feather said:
For me the biggest problem I can see is that the OPs horse, when it doesn't make it in racing, will become an "ex-racer". Unfortunately there is a lot of negativity towards ex-racers, hence they tend to sell for peanuts initially. Someone with experience and time can develop the horse to being a useful sort who could absolutely be super as a competition horse but sadly they're often not given this chance. I do often think that the low purchasing price of the horse when it comes out of racing hinders it. When people are paying just a few hundred pounds for an animal I think it can be difficult for that horse to raise it's value. When people are paying 6k or 7k these horses don't appear to be quite as dispensible as the ones selling for 400 or 500 quid because people have so much more tied up in the horse. Obviously I'm stereotyping, as you have, but I think when a horse starts with a high value once in the private market, the depreciation is far more gradual. There are too many unscrupulous buyers at the bottom end of any market and the risks for low priced horses are greater than those commanding much higher prices.
Click to expand...


But this is relevent in any breeding ,take a look at foal ads at the moment there are many many foals and youngsters for sale for peanuts at the moment most the product of covering poor quality mares with either too good a stallion for the mares ability or the most popular at the moment covering with a coloured stallion of some description thinking that if its coloured or unusual it will sell.
At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.
 
dont do it!!!!! the poor things are way waaaaay overbred already, the reason being you can get the best stallion and the best mare you can find but it doesnt guarantee you will breed a champ, or even anything considered half decent in the race world. thats why so many are thrown on the scrap heap every year, in their thousands. even foals.

its well known that its all a lottery and a bit of a mystery and as said before no one can breed that "X factor" into a foal. theyve either got it or they havent.

i know this has all been said before in other posts. why not save an ex racehorse instead? far more ethical to give one of these lovely horses a good home and retrain them, and give them the chance of a longer life rather than a bullet. sorry its not what you want to hear but and the last thing the race industry needs is more breeders. :)
 
sallyf said:
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
Click to expand...

I think the difference is the sheer volume the racing industry produces, even with that 35% cut. Sadly Sally its a fact there are more TB in-foal mares going for meat then there are sporthorse mares or natives. And lets be honest it is a bigger gamble & with the training involved you may end up with a TB who is not upto the job & has also picked up some stable vice. Again a higher number of TB's from racing background develope stable vices, ulcers then those bred for sport. I am not saying that sporthorses dont go onto develope the vices, but generally not until they are in work & being stabled for longer. And yes plenty of ex racers have gone onto make excellent riding, sports & show horses. Also I think some of us are concerned that if the experts struggle how on earth is this poster going to buck the trend?
 
The only people to blame are the stud farms.

They control the population of the throughbred industry not the prospective breeder/owner.

Go easy on the threadstarter.
 
Luke7 said:
The only people to blame are the stud farms.

......./QUOTE]

If we use the word "Blame", then presumably that would imply that the Stud Owners, should have known better. Without a crystal ball, few could have predicted our current economic problems.

The racing industry is (or was!) dependent upon a steady supply of racing stock, on an annual basis. Many, including me, thought that this recession would be like most, in that after a year or two, the world would return to normal, and that those who had the where-withall to ride the storm, would come out of it with value improved assets. That hasn't happened, and it isn't going to, for some while. We've yet to hit rock bottom, and it's some way off.

Within the next two years, I predict, there will be a great many TB stud farms which go out of business. This will have a knock on effect upon trainers and those veterinary practices who rely upon the racing industry. It hasn't happened yet, but it will.

Strangely, I suspect that my portents of doom and gloom will be for the long term good. Refining the business of breeding will mean that the better horses, stud farms, vets and trainers will hang on, and when an upturn occurs, they will be positioned to grow.

On a more positive note, I understand that there are those owners of stud farms, specifically around Newmarket, who are leasing or renting out their premises, and who are coming to realise that their often monstrous rents need reviewing. Reducing rents, means that keep charges are reduced, and who does that affect? Those of us who keep mares at stud, that's who!!

Alec.
Click to expand...
 
sallyf said:
But this is relevent in any breeding ,take a look at foal ads at the moment there are many many foals and youngsters for sale for peanuts at the moment most the product of covering poor quality mares with either too good a stallion for the mares ability or the most popular at the moment covering with a coloured stallion of some description thinking that if its coloured or unusual it will sell.
At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.
Click to expand...

Sally I think you are so right the breeding of coloured horses in the years I have seen it escalate since 2006 when we bought our stallion to now where if its coloured keep it entire its sick making and now very pleasing to see so many who jumped on the band wagon selling there so called precious coloured stallion, I have bred coloured horses on and off for 30 years but as a buisness we decided to go in a different direction to the world and his wife hence breeding colour and bone in to the TB our Investment has been huge in terms of time money and effort but its thrilling to breed a horse for racing I wish the OP much luck you do need luck and good contacts and you need to be able to trust the people who care for your horse thats so important
 
Last edited:
sallyf said:
At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.
Click to expand...
But she knows next to nothing about TB racing, otherwise she would not be asking such a naive question!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top