How do I discipline something that retaliates worse when told off?? Long post!

ester

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I am wondering how you are asking her to do these things like step back when you enter her stable.
I am also well aware that if I am anxious or scared at an impending situation that my reaction is to get bolshier/stroppier with the horse. I have to work very hard not to do that and temper my reactions to the horse I am handling.

Think of it this way, to her a headcollar may well be the prior warning that you are going to do something with her, without it life might seem like one big stressful surprise. There is certainly no way I would be changing rugs in the field of a horse that I had only had a month.
 

Keith_Beef

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So horse misbehaves without headcollar but is good with one on. You want horse to behave. So what's the big deal about putting a headcollar on? Horse behaves so seems like a no brainer solution to me.

I ride several different horses up at the yard (not having a horse of my own), and it's a change in behaviour that I've seen in both geldings and mares. They seem to change as soon as the headcollar is on, as if it's a signal to switch from "this is my free time, and I'll do as I please" to "OK, it's work time, I'll do whatever the boss asks".
 

JFTDWS

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I ... still have to put on my high heels and bra and smile at the people at work.

Nobody should HAVE to put on high heels to go to work. That's sexist nonsense.

Do I live in a weird parallel universe? Even Lady G's description of a 'typical mare' does not describe mine.

...

I think we need to stop being so sexist and treat horses as individuals. Most horses are extremely biddable by nature, so unless a human messes them up, you have an animal that is ready and willing to learn.

Mine neither. My mare is genuinely the sweetest horse I've ever met - she's never "girthy" - if she were, I'd investigate, because it's almost certainly a physical issue. She's never grumpy with me, she's no more stubborn than my geldings, and actually she's very similar to them in almost ever respect.

Stereotypes can be self-fulfilling prophecies and I don't think it's constructive to maintain that rhetoric - it encourages people like the OP to behave like idiots.
 

scats

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Ive had 5 mares over the years and theres only one that I would have considered had a stereotypical mareish attitude, but I do wonder how much of that was due to her previous lifestyle. She used to attack people when they went in to feed her and had to be held back with a yard brush (this was many years before I got her).
I spent my childhood and teens hanging off this pony and cuddling and kissing her! I’m not entirely sure she was particularly happy about this but neither of us came to any harm and we ended up having the most incredible relationship. She was definitely the pony of a lifetime. She was grumpy in the stable but perfectly fine outside of it. But yes, people used to comment on her mare-ishness. I preferred to call it spirit!

My most affectionate pony was a mare. There was not a grumpy bone in the Divas body, she was the sweetest person I’ve ever met.
 

SpringArising

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She sounds defensive and anxious and you sound like you're trying to bully her.

Shouting and smacking her is going to make her worse. Please take a step back - she clearly doesn't like these situations, so why would you further worsen that by making them even less pleasant for her? You need to get her to start associating these things with something good.

And I wish people would stop with the term 'Typical mare'. I've had four mares and not one of them was rude, unhappy or grumpy. It's an excuse used by people who CBA to figure out what the real issue is.
 

Merrymoles

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I'm another who hates the "typical mare" stereotype. I have worked with an equal number of mares and geldings through my life and there is no such thing.

I currently have a gelding who was both aggressive and defensive when I got him. His behaviour could still be described as "typically coltish" now if I believed in stereotypes - he snakes at me in the field and occasionally shows me his teeth, is incredibly mouthy and is still very difficult to handle if there is something that worries him (mane pulling, clipping, worming) but we have established boundaries through kindness and consistency and he now never scares me. There are certain things I let him do which others would not tolerate, like licking the back of my coat when I'm leading him or chewing his rope, but they are far preferable to his original behaviour of biting and rearing and I think he uses them a bit like a child with a dummy. If I hack him alone, he sucks his bit audibly.

The reason for this essay is that he would have reacted very badly to any form of "punishment" or physical "discipline", completely losing his trust and becoming more aggressive. He is now a much happier horse, although I still cannot ride with a stick of any description, and we have found a way to work around his worries and fear to achieve what I need to do with him.

I would echo everyone who has said that your mare needs to be allowed to settle - stick with doing what she is comfortable with, such as putting a head collar on when you want to handle her indoors, and listen to what she is telling you. I have always wished that all my animals could talk to tell me exactly what the problem is but if you listen to them, they do let you know when they are ready to try something new or different. For the time being, she needs to stay in her comfort zone until she develops a level of trust in you.
 

SEL

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I ride several different horses up at the yard (not having a horse of my own), and it's a change in behaviour that I've seen in both geldings and mares. They seem to change as soon as the headcollar is on, as if it's a signal to switch from "this is my free time, and I'll do as I please" to "OK, it's work time, I'll do whatever the boss asks".

That's mine - & the reason there is a sign outside her stable asking people to headcollar her before entering.

Mind it took a while before we decided that was how we would work together - she was vile when she was given to me! Andd although she does fit the "typical mare" description all her behaviours are down to her less than great start in life - huge anxiety issues.
 

splashgirl45

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i felt quite upset reading the OP's post and feel very sorry for the mare. she has come to a different yard with a person who is trying to push her around, she doesnt understand what you want. it is also bad horsemanship to change a rug in the field without having a headcollar on, no matter how good the horse, one of the others could get too close and provoke a reaction and therefore you could have a rug half on and the horse careering round the field. an accident waiting to happen.....if she is easy to handle with a headcollar on i dont understand why you wouldnt use it.........no horses should be treated aggressively especially not mares or stallions, you can get away with that sort of behaviour with some geldings but it is not the right way.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Do I live in a weird parallel universe? Even Lady G's description of a 'typical mare' does not describe mine.


No you don't. Sis and I have owned 13 mares between us and none of them has matched Lady G's description. 2 had physical problems, which we dealt with and then had no further 'mare-ish' problems, the others have never been moody with people, occasionally so with other mares in the field.
I think the fact that we try to listen to what they tell us and always treat them as individuals is the key to a good relationship with them.
 

On the Hoof

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I pretty much think all has been said that needs to be to the OP, but I was going to just say that I too have a mare that pretty much behaved like that when I got her and I always used a head collar and tied her short for a long while. After three months I got the vet in and we ended up treating for ulcers, after 6 months she started to trust me. It took a year before I could walk in the stable while she was eating as she was a food guarder. Three years on I still use the headcollar as it reassures her what is happening next and I remain safe even though all those behaviours have now gone, its just our routine now.
 

LadyGascoyne

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No you don't. Sis and I have owned 13 mares between us and none of them has matched Lady G's description. 2 had physical problems, which we dealt with and then had no further 'mare-ish' problems, the others have never been moody with people, occasionally so with other mares in the field.
I think the fact that we try to listen to what they tell us and always treat them as individuals is the key to a good relationship with them.


Again, not my description, the OPs description of her horses behavior. My mare is lovely and never so much as pulls a face.
 

exracehorse

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My vet said that he treats more geldings for ulcers or is asked by the owner to investigate other aggressive behaviours etc than mares. The reason being, that mares are often classed as just being a ‘mare’ and signs are being ignored of pain. I have had mares and geldings over the years, currently have two boys and one girl and actually my mare is the easiest of the three both ridden and on the ground. And after I was kicked in the field changing my geldings rug and ended up in A&E, I always bring in to sort any changes out. Learnt my lesson.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Again, not my description, the OPs description of her horses behavior. My mare is lovely and never so much as pulls a face.

I am sorry if you feel that you have been mis-represented but you did use the phrase 'typical mare' several times and contrast that with OP's mare's behaviour, apparently making the point that the mare is not behaving 'typically'





I think you need to try to separate some of these behaviors from “being a typical mare”.

1. Personal space

Likes her space in the stable or field, and occasionally a bit grumpy if being fussed with when she doesn’t feel like it - typical mare

Launches at you and tried to bite and kick - serious behavioral issue, needs working through

2. Discipline

Doesn’t like being forced or told to do something when she doesn’t feel like it - typical mare

Reacting with aggression - serious behavioral issue, not ok

3. Girth and straps

Being a bit ‘girthy’ or grumpy about straps - typical mare and possibly feeling a bit hormonal, bloated and uncomfortable that day (totally empathise)

Actually biting or kicking when girth and straps are done - possibly pain response, I would check saddle, back and consider ulcers depending on management regime and other symptoms

4. Attacking other horses

Making her point, standing her ground, being a bit bossy and asserting her dominance, occasionally grumpy - typical mare

Attacking other horses to the point of concern about injury - first consideration would be insecurity around being new, and possibly needs to settle but I would be taking shoes off and even keeping separated but in adjacent fields if she really means it.

Hope this helps, I love mares. I usually try to see things from their perspective and approach things from a position of giving them an acceptable solution rather than pushing them into making a bad decision and then disciplining them for their reaction.

I also know exactly what it’s like to wake up feeling cranky and bloated, wanting nothing more than to spend all day in bed with a good book and a bucket of chocolate, and still have to put on my high heels and bra and smile at the people at work.

So for me, I appreciate that my girls may not always be in a fabulous mood, and I don’t expect absolute consistency in their headspace, but I do expect them to put on their bra and heels, and go to work.
 

meleeka

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Of course it goes without saying that all horses should be treated with respect. My experience is that a gelding is more likely to shut down if being treated unfairly, whereas a mare is more likely to meet fire with fire. One of my mares could be called a typical mare (and she’s a chestnut Welsh!) but in actual fact she just has more facial expressions than my geldings. This is why I like having a ‘typical mare’ because I always know what she’s thinking and how she feels about something.
 

exracehorse

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My mare would wet herself if I had a go at her. Not that I ever needed to. She’s a total poppet. One of my geldings though hates being cuddled. So I don’t bother. Looks permanently grumpy. And will barge and tank off on the ground ... which he did again last week.
 

Pinkvboots

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I don't think it's normal for any horse to react to the girth being done up, that's unless you are pulling it quite tight from the off, a girth should be just done up to start with then tightened gradually.

I wouldn't expect any horse to just stand in a field to have a rug put on without a headcollar, I only ever do it with mine when there eating from a Hay net out there and I have geldings, it's actually quite a dangerous thing to do if the horse runs off and the rugs not secured properly the horse can get caught up trip over and hurt themselves.

It sounds like the mare has had to fight for her food in the past hence the aggression when feeding and handling in the field, I would just put the feed in and leave her alone don't aggravate the problem and just do all her handling in the field with a headcollar on its not really that much of an issue.
 

Pearlsasinger

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I had a mare with a reputation for biting in her previous home. She was petrified if there was someone standing leaning on her stable door, when I first got her, never mind 2 in the box, which we sometimes wanted to do because she was unhappy being tacked up. We worked with her to the point where she was disappointed if every-one available wasn't in her box, telling her how gorgeous she was, at coming in time.

I know where her last two homes were and I am pretty sure that she had been very well treated until the home immediately before me. She was a mare who, if you didn't listen to her, shouted louder. And if you were daft/mean enough to be cross with her she would be ready to fight back. She was incredibly loyal to us, when she learned that we were consistent and fair in our dealings with her, would do anything for us and was extremely protective of us.
 

LadyGascoyne

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I am sorry if you feel that you have been mis-represented but you did use the phrase 'typical mare' several times and contrast that with OP's mare's behaviour, apparently making the point that the mare is not behaving 'typically'

I know, I suppose I was trying to say that some of those are behaviors that do get grouped into the mareish stereotype but some of what is described is actually a serious behavior issue.

As I said, I love mares and prefer them to geldings.
 

Indy

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I have a gelding similar, I just don't get into an argument with him. He's girthy, I take my time tacking up, he doesn't like being brushed in the stable, I take him outside and tie him up, he doesn't like being faffed with I don't faff with him, we have an understanding I don't discipline or bully and he has no need to retaliate. I've adapted my behaviour to suit his
 

JanetGeorge

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There is a very old saying that everyone should remember: @You ASK a mare; you tell a gelding - when necessary; and you negotiate a suitable agreement with a stallion." It is VERY true - believe me, I've had the lot - and a number of stallions, and worked on studs with even MORE stallions. But mares: can be 'difficult' if they have been abused - they WILL remember. And if tey are then moved somewhere new, they WILL be suspicious and defensive/agressive.

Most horses of ANY sex will suffer some degree of separation anxiety when they move from the home they know. Sometimes their worries are so slight they will not be particularly noticeable. Other times, some will be SO out of character with the horse you thought you'd bought you'll be onto the vet to get blood sample tested.

This mare is definitely anxious - you're fighting her and she's fighting back! Her 'safe' places ae stable and field when you're not there -s he's protective of them - they're all she thinks she has! I would recommend a field-safe headcollar - let her wear it all the time when no bridle in place. A good pat, a soothing 'good girl', and a handy treat in your pocket when she IS good. She will soon come to trust you a bit more and ease off the bad behaviour. Then you will become friends.
 

bonny

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What’s the chances that this is another question asked by a newcomer that lots of people answer, all generally saying the same thing and the OP has long gone ?
 

Leo Walker

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There is a very old saying that everyone should remember: @You ASK a mare; you tell a gelding - when necessary; and you negotiate a suitable agreement with a stallion." It is VERY true - believe me

Its really not. Its an old fashioned stereotype trotted out by people who should know better.
 

Indy

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My horse is girthy because of years of being manhandled and pushed about. Not every girthy horse is in pain sometimes they just get to the I've had enough point and start to defend themselves. Sometimes it is just a case of offering a bit of respect
 

Pearlsasinger

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What’s the chances that this is another question asked by a newcomer that lots of people answer, all generally saying the same thing and the OP has long gone ?


It is also quite possible that the mare in question doesn't actually exist but it has led to an interesting thread with most people agreeing that there is no such thing as a 'typical mare'. The nuanced discussion has been fascinating.
 

meleeka

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Its really not. Its an old fashioned stereotype trotted out by people who should know better.

Mine puts her ears back when girthed up, she also does when you do her front rug straps up and her leg straps. I’ve spent good money to find a cause and the conclusion was that it was behavioural. Whether she was treated roughly in a previous home I don’t know but I’m certain it’s not current pain related (and she’s retired now anyway so not girthed up anymore). I’ve owned her for 14 years and she’s always been the same although she used to be much worse.
 

wattamus

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All I will say is it took me a good few months to encourage my new mare to behave in the way she did when I tried her, now she comes in by herself, stands in the stable like a lamb, but when I first got her she'd try walk over the top of me if her sisters weren't in. I didn't push her, I just said no and pushed her back each time- it took a long time but they do come round.
Sometimes it takes time and patience, if using a headcollar is the only way to go then just do that until she feels comfortable, just test the water every bite and again. Just encourage positive behaviour, you'll get there :)
However (not in a nasty way) if it's too much, don't be afraid to admit defeat and sell on and look for a gelding lol ;) I love bears because there challenging, but when you get it right you get such a wonderful partnership :D
Good luck
 
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