How do you know your horse is sorry?

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HollyhedgePippa

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My mare kicked me today. It shocked me a lot, it was so unexpected as she's such a sweet mare and had never kicked out at anyone before, even when people squeeze between her bum and the wall trying to get past when she's tied outside her stable. I was standing at her shoulder grooming her in a world of my own and then I found myself slouched on the grass behind her (yard is in a courtyard shape). I gave her a good telling off in my dominating voice (been practising :D), a poke in the ribs and took her hay off her. Suprisingly she stood like a dope on a rope which she normally doesn't do without her hay.
Is this her saying sorry? Feeling bad for what she's done?

How does your horse say sorry? Or don't they?

Sorry for the essay! :)
 
I don't think they can feel a human emotion like that. I do think though that they can "make themselves look small and drop their heads in submission", for fear of consequences.

Hope you weren't hurt too bad and I hoped you clocked her one hard for that, that would be no time for just a raised voice, even if it was just a fly and you got in the way, she should not be in your space. I'd get medievil on mine if he did that!

I'd do some extra ground work.
 
Yes I'm fine thank you! My wrist was sore at the time and a little grazed, but it doesn't hurt now.
To tell you the truth I did clock her hard, just didn't want to risk people moaning at me and starting a war on here.
Groundwork isn't such an issue to be honest, she stays out of my space, and when I apply a bit of pressure she will move away from me. When she's in season she's something else though, maybe the devils horse? She isn't in season at the moment though, so that is no excuse for what she did.
She was well behaved when I tacked her up after to ride (normally pulls faces), and she went beautifully when I schooled her too. I think it was just a case of we both wasn't paying attention to each other and got in the way.
 
I'm not sure horses are sorry in the way humans feel it. They can certainly learn what is/isn't acceptable & show more respect after being brought back into line, but I don't think they regret their actions as such, just the consequences.
Don't take this the wrong way, i'm quite happy to wallop a kicker straight back & make them move right out of my space, but I don't agree with taking a haynet away as punishment. A horse can't reason between kicking you & having its net removed afterwards.
 
I agree. I don't think they can feel 'sorry' as this takes the theory of mind which humans only develope between 3-5 years of age, so a horse is very unlikley to have this. I do agree though, that they learn. And if they do an action, and have a bad or negative reaction, this teaches behavioure. So a good telling off was the right thing to do, but for her feeling sorry, I disgaree.
 
littlelegs said:
I'm not sure horses are sorry in the way humans feel it. They can certainly learn what is/isn't acceptable & show more respect after being brought back into line, but I don't think they regret their actions as such, just the consequences.
Don't take this the wrong way, i'm quite happy to wallop a kicker straight back & make them move right out of my space, but I don't agree with taking a haynet away as punishment. A horse can't reason between kicking you & having its net removed afterwards.
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completely agree, I too am not against giving a wallop immediately after a horse has done something like kicking, but to take her hay away is unnecessary and just a little bit cruel tbh, she would have no conception of why you would do such a thing, she is a horse and not capable of human emotions or reasoning.
 
Fair enough!
And well Littlelegs what's done is done, Ive never had to deal with a misbehavor before so wasn't sure what to do in this situation. Now looking back im thinking why did I do that. But I now know for the future. Thanks :)
 
Just to clarify that it was a small haynet I give her when grooming/tacking up which I took away, and not her hay for the night. She got her two haynets when she went to bed :)
 
If its any help, try & watch how horses react in the field, when one steps out of line the reaction is immediate, so you've got to react quickly too. Fwiw I didn't think you meant you planned to starve her overnight as punishment!
 
I personally can't see how taking a horse's hay away during grooming is 'cruel'?!

I don't for one minute think that taking it away though will have been any type of effective punishment though for the reasons stated above.
 
Actually by controlling food you are exerting your position as herd leader, quite a good thing to do in the circumstances I would think, not a punishment as such but exerting your position which is what would happen in the herd
 
If you chase a loose horse away from food in a field for bad behavior I'd agree that's exerting control. But taking away a haynet from a horse that you've brought in isn't replicating what would happen in a herd so it doesn't follow the horse will see you as leader of you do. I think it only works if you move the horse from the food & stop it coming back over, not vice versa
 
My mare appeared to be 'sorry' whne she accidentally stood on my old dog, he'd been in the stable as she was going in and she caught his paw (luckily no damage) He yelped and she shot to the back of the box and then gingerly came and investigated him. She refuses to go into the stable if the dog is in the way now, and she is well used to hearing dogs yelp etc with no reaction, she did seem to have genuine concern for him.
Probably me anthropomorphising though. :)
 
littlelegs said:
If you chase a loose horse away from food in a field for bad behavior I'd agree that's exerting control. But taking away a haynet from a horse that you've brought in isn't replicating what would happen in a herd so it doesn't follow the horse will see you as leader of you do. I think it only works if you move the horse from the food & stop it coming back over, not vice versa
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Controlling access to food no matter how it's done exerts the position of the leader. You don't have to be in a field or directly replicate what happens in a field.
 
HollyhedgePippa said:
I gave her a good telling off in my dominating voice (been practising :D), a poke in the ribs and took her hay off her.
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Seems like an odd thing to do - taking her hay off her? A horse doesnt think like that, it wont realise that you removing her food is punishment so its a bit pointless doing it! I agree with what Littlelegs has said, its not exerting dominance by taking it off her - it needs to take the form of something else like chasing her off her feed and not letting her back over etc. Anyway, it doesnt sound like the horse needed to be dominated, the OP seemed to suggest the horse never kicks so I'd let this one go. One of my horses accidentally kicked me once (the gentlest horse in the world with perfect manners), but after thinking it through it was because it was feed time and another of my horses passed behind at the same time as I did (they're all loose) so my horse was kicking out at my other one, not at me. In OP's case, perhaps its as simple as she startled the horse and he naturally kicked out. Too many people IMO jump to punishment.

I dont believe horses are "sorry" as such, I think they know when they've done wrong like if they've hurt you by your reaction and may well amend their behaviour accordingly but they arent "sorry" for it.
 
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Yes I do think horses can be sorry for stepping out of line. I let my 3 into another field and just opened the gate. The other field had long grass in it about half way across. They duly walked into the field in their pecking order. But number 2 just wanted the grass and pushed past the boss. Numbers 1 and 3 and me all just stood still. Number 1 was clearly displeased. Number 2 suddenly realised she had done wrong and left the good grass and did everything she could to get back in the boss' good books. I am sure she was sorry.
 
I do think horses express remorse, I've witnessed it many times with mares I've had. It isn't anthropomorphism,I always think its almost arrogant of people to dismiss the ability of horses to be capable of a range of emotions that humans think belong solely to them. However, the difference is the way they view expression as a response and move on. Humans hold on to negative feelings, wallow in self pity or manipulate. The instinct in horses is for survival and co operation so living in the present enables them to function as a group.
Historically its not so long ago that we though the indigenous populations of Africa, America and Australia were similarly incapable of complex emotion.

FWIW, OP, chastising your mare and removing the hay net immediately was fine, because you have a good and fair relationship with her, making your reproval more effective.
Taking away the net while she is standing to be groomed is hardly detrimental to her welfare. Leaving her stabled for several hours without forage would have been, but you didn't, so no problem.
 
*sighs* you don't need to chase a horse from it's food to show leadership or gain respect, making a horse wait until you have put food down or tied a hay net up has the same effect, so will removing a net. Its basic stuff.
 
I think you did the right thing. A telling off a smack and taking the haynet away. My horse was never allowed a haynet when tacking up or grooming etc when he was young as he would not be still or concentrating on me and would often forget his manners by just fidigiting around and being rude. Now he's older he can eat the hay in his box while I groom etc but I never go out of my way to give him one. He's fine to stand without an he is better behaved without because he has only me to focus on and not messing around with the haynet. I also think animals know when they are sorry of course they do. My horse rarely has reason to be sorry because he doesn't misbehave often, but he knows what he's done when he gets told off because he'll stop doing the naughty thing. He also waits till I'm out of sight before he continues and pretend he wasn't doing anything when he knows I can see him. (Such as rope chewing when I go to the tack room).
OP, the political correctness you're having to use for such an unoffensive thread is hilarious and exhausting at the same time.
 
Not sure on them feeling sorry either but they do know right from wrong (if taught properly!)
Last year Fabio went to kick out at our shetland but didn't realise i was standing next to her and caught me instead. Nothing major - but not the point. As soon as he seen it was me i swear you could almost hear it in his head 'oh *****, now i'm for it!!!' He did get a slap back because regardless of him catching me or not, he shouldn't have been kicking out anyway!
 
She's probably sorry you removed her haynet;)

However I see no reason why she wouldn't connect your departure with the removal of her hay. They do have a sense of cause and effect.
 
I always work on with the operant conditioning model with my animals (and with people too ;))

It consists on reinforcement and punishment in both positive and negative ways. The 4 components are as follows -

  • Positive reinforcement - reward good behaviour by giving something nice, praise, reward etc
  • Negative reinforcement - reward good behaviour by removing something not nice, a restriction etc
  • Positive punishment - punishing bad behaviour by removing something nice, taking away privileges etc (in this instance removing her hay)
  • Negative punishment - punishing bad behaviour by introducing something bad, reprimanding etc (in this case the immediate telling off)

I have used this model with all my animals and it works well - regardless of whether they are considered to be a species that has state-of-mind or not. Any animal has the capacity to understand cause and effect with regards to praise and punishment - how else do you think they learn!!
 
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