How do you make a livery yard pay?

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Holding

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Kind of half serious question, half general musing. Running my own yard has always been a dream of mine, and the only thing that has held me back is the financial side. It's a truth universally acknowledged that to make a small fortune in horses you have to start with a large fortune. So for those of you who do own/run/work at livery yards, how on earth do you make them pay enough to even cover your own salary? It seems that to do it properly costs more than any customer would be willing to pay. Do you avoid hiring staff? Limit bedding and/or forage? Or just work another job on the side? So many yards obviously do manage to stay in business, and I would love to know how. :o
 
In my experience -
1 - work very very hard yourself, certainly don't expect to 'earn' minimum wage for the hours you put in, 365 days a year - staff are an expensive luxury
2 - Own the land/property outright including somewhere to live on site, making enough to pay rent is extremely stretching
3 - Have enough land to make your own hay - maintains quality and saves a fortune
4 - plan to cover costs and earn money from extras - lessons, clipping, selling hay off yard, etc.
 
It's a very fine balancing act. When we first started up, the sister and i both had a couple of part time jobs and as time went on and we got busier, we were able to leave the part time (although we do still have one each part time job, as well as running a yard of 10). We are lucky in that we rent land, stables and schools within a DIY yard so only pay for the boxes that we use. Bedding is included in this price per horse.

Even with this amount of horses in after insurance (our biggest outgoing and absolutely essential - esp C and C) rent cost, feed, hay, general supplies etc there really is not sufficient to make a 'decent' living. Our wages equate to about £1.00 an hour, being on call 24/7, 365 days a year, not counting in occasional days off and paying staff plus £7 an hour is just not feasible. Thankfully there are 2 of us, so we do get days off and a basic 7 day holiday a year!

As for your question re meeting costs, not sure you could scrimp on bedding mor forage, if its part of a full livery package, scrapped legs and hungry horses do not make for a good reputation. Keeping prices competitive in this climate is the biggest challenge with rising forage, feed, ret and insurance costs.

Saying this, if its your dream, go for it. It's rewarding, harder work than you'll imagine both financially and physically. Many times there has been little food in the cupboards, turning the heating Down and covering with a blanket during the winter or red letters during quiet periods, just got to get on, keep a smile on the face and maintain a tough skin and know that regardless of what day it is or how you're feeling there will always be a soft whicker on the yard to ease the troubles!
 
Cortez said:
Very simple answer: You don't.
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Ehmmmm, agree basically :)

We do (only) DIY here, and in the twenty years that we've been doing it have met some lovely people who're still in our circle and are friends today.

The horses have been truly memorable and totally fantastic. We've seen them grow, been backed, developed..... and we've lost some oldies too which has been very very sad. But supporting the owners through the tough times comes with the territory basically and isn't an optional extra.

In all that time we've only had one really bad egg, and she only stayed for a month thank goodness.

Nope, you won't make a fortune out of it, but provided you keep your yard up to scratch and have a proper yard agreement for everyone that comes on the place, you'll do OK, and if you have half the fun and enjoyment that we've had from doing it, plus are prepared to share in the heartbreaks with your owners too, you'll have done well.

Good luck.
 
We looked into it and couldn't, and we own the place. By the time we'd paid business rates, utilities and insurance we would have to charge £48 per stable each week DIY just to cover the costs. That doesn't take into account wear and tear, having people moving through our property, the additional hours of maintenance having extra horses would bring, or the inevitable hours we would spend bailing owners who couldn't make it up out, sorting disputes or chasing people up about money or mess. We make far more money by taking a hay crop off the fields we would have used for the grazing and selling the hay.

I can only think that people either make it work through sheer determination, grit and acceptance in living off little. Or they aren't paying some of the big costs like rates or insurance.
 
I am always surprised by these threads where almost no one makes a decent living doing livery. Surely if people started charging enough to make a living and provided a good service then horse owners would have to pay. Obviously it needs everyone to do this otherwise some yards would be full and others empty but in areas where there is a shortage of good liveries then it is totally reasonable that the livery fee should be sufficient to cover decent wages for YO, YM or staff.
I was at a livery yard that increased it's part livery by £130 pm and gave a copy of their finances to show that prior to the increase they made a loss. At £595 part/£750 full they included a YM salary of £25k plus handyman and grooms. Part livery in Surrey is around £600 but there are yards who charge significantly more and they are all full.
I'm currently using my neighbours field for free as I maintain it, when she had grass liveries she was actually making a loss as the livery didn't cover the maintenance/insurance. There is something fundamentally wrong with the equestrian business as a whole if people consistently make a loss or earn less than minimum wage or have to break the law and not pay rates/insurance. I've had people knock on my door asking for grass or DIY livery and I would need to charge £200-300 minimum to make it worthwhile and I have a full time job.
I feel quite ranty about this as it just seems so unfair that it is standard practice to make a loss or scratch a very basic wage out of what is a leisure industry.
 
The point is you don't. It's a massively unfair industry as there are uneven costs. Some yards don't pay rates or insurance while others have to. This means some yards in my area offer DIY livery for £15 per week. It's impossible to compete with, but then in these straightened financial times people seem happy to keep their horses out on weedy ragwort filled fields with barbed wire fences. Stupidly I spend my money from my other job to support my yard. It's my baby though.
 
Sorry but livery yards just don't pay! ESP if your renting! I fell in to the trap of having lots of liveries at my last rented yard (I mainly deal) and it was nothing but a financial hole and a headache to match. My rent was enormous, and you just can't make a living like that. My solution was to find a much cheaper yard and go back to dealing full time, no liveries apart from sale liveries. Hey presto the place is paying for itself again and I have a life again! If you want the grim details it was costing me about £7000 to run the yard a month, including paying staff but not paying myself a proper wage. Liveries were bringing in £550 a horse part livery.
 
LynH said:
I am always surprised by these threads where almost no one makes a decent living doing livery. Surely if people started charging enough to make a living and provided a good service then horse owners would have to pay. Obviously it needs everyone to do this otherwise some yards would be full and others empty but in areas where there is a shortage of good liveries then it is totally reasonable that the livery fee should be sufficient to cover decent wages for YO, YM or staff.
I was at a livery yard that increased it's part livery by £130 pm and gave a copy of their finances to show that prior to the increase they made a loss. At £595 part/£750 full they included a YM salary of £25k plus handyman and grooms. Part livery in Surrey is around £600 but there are yards who charge significantly more and they are all full.
I'm currently using my neighbours field for free as I maintain it, when she had grass liveries she was actually making a loss as the livery didn't cover the maintenance/insurance. There is something fundamentally wrong with the equestrian business as a whole if people consistently make a loss or earn less than minimum wage or have to break the law and not pay rates/insurance. I've had people knock on my door asking for grass or DIY livery and I would need to charge £200-300 minimum to make it worthwhile and I have a full time job.
I feel quite ranty about this as it just seems so unfair that it is standard practice to make a loss or scratch a very basic wage out of what is a leisure industry.
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Absolutely agree. I wouldn't stay on a yard that didn't pay tax or have insurance; it's too risky and it's not fair on YOs who do things properly. I've seen too many yard staff / owners having a miserable time because they're working ridiculously hard for rubbish wages; I'm not prepared to watch people go through hell to earn a basic wage when it is merely a hobby for me. I'd rather pay a fair rate and get a decent service in return.
 
I think you can do it, but you have to be very savvy and have a good accountant!

Our YO seems to do OK - it is a big yard that has 32 horses, with three full time staff, a couple of weekend girls and the YO does the riding. It is a well run yard with a good routine - the horses are looked after well and all have good beds and enough to eat. The part liveries are the "bread and butter" money and the fulls top this off. However, you get charged for everything, but you know you get charged extras and they are all listed, so it's not too much of an issue, and generally the bills are correct at the end of the month.

OK, the yard needs a bit of attention - fencing could do with an update, fields could be maintained more and it needs a coat of paint - you sometimes get a few niggles, but on the whole it is a good yard, plus its friendly with a definitely lack of bitches! It certainly provides the YO with the facility to have two horses, an up to date car and a holiday with her kids every year!
 
LynH said:
I am always surprised by these threads where almost no one makes a decent living doing livery. Surely if people started charging enough to make a living and provided a good service then horse owners would have to pay. Obviously it needs everyone to do this otherwise some yards would be full and others empty but in areas where there is a shortage of good liveries then it is totally reasonable that the livery fee should be sufficient to cover decent wages for YO, YM or staff.
I was at a livery yard that increased it's part livery by £130 pm and gave a copy of their finances to show that prior to the increase they made a loss. At £595 part/£750 full they included a YM salary of £25k plus handyman and grooms. Part livery in Surrey is around £600 but there are yards who charge significantly more and they are all full.
I'm currently using my neighbours field for free as I maintain it, when she had grass liveries she was actually making a loss as the livery didn't cover the maintenance/insurance. There is something fundamentally wrong with the equestrian business as a whole if people consistently make a loss or earn less than minimum wage or have to break the law and not pay rates/insurance. I've had people knock on my door asking for grass or DIY livery and I would need to charge £200-300 minimum to make it worthwhile and I have a full time job.
I feel quite ranty about this as it just seems so unfair that it is standard practice to make a loss or scratch a very basic wage out of what is a leisure industry.
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I quite agree :)
Livery charges round here in NW Surrey are still the same as they were around 1990 - why? :confused: Nothing else is the same cost!
I'm happier with too much grass & no liveries - the bills for maintenance & mending things far outweigh the costs coming in.

Ive posted elsewhere what 'can' pay, but it certainly is not std DIY or part liveries per se.
 
I agree with everything that's been said already.

One thing I've noticed is that YO often seem to 'collect' horses,with the attitude that its not costing anything because they own the land. It surely can't be good for business to have eg five horses taking up space and costing money in feed/shoes/bedding, when that space could be taken up with a paying livery. I think where the yard is rented (an extra cost) many YOs end up in a situation where running the yard effectively only covers them owning their collection if horses for almost nothing, rather than paying them a wage.


What I've seen of how people do it is two models:

1) have a DIY yard and a separate part time job. Never fix anything that breaks, so the place becomes more and more run down. Many of these seem not to be running an official business eg no livery agreement and paid cash only, so presumably not paying rates/insurance etc.

2) have a full livery only yard on a shoe string. Typically 1 small bale of straw a week bedding, 2 - 3 slices of small bale hay overnight, half a scoop each of low energy budget brand nuts and cheap molassed chaff twice daily, horses rugs changed and turned out/brought in but never groomed at all or checked over properly. Every available space turned into a stable, leaving fields dreadfully over grazed to the extent of being little more than mud. Anything bigger than a large pony doesn't do well, though small cobs are often kept at these yards (tend to be a little lean). TBs and poor do-ers end up getting moved to a DIY yard when the owner realises their horse is starving!
 
With great difficulty, especially if DIY. I ran a small yard for 5 years and have recently given it up as just wasn't worth the hard work for money made.

I totally agree with whoever commented that livery charges are too cheap - I used to charge £25 per week which included an acre per horse, large stables with water feeders, use of menage and jumps and off road hacking. When you take into account business rates, elec/water etc, I was only just breaking even, but as soon as any maintenance was needed, was then out of pocket.

However this is the amount most yards charge in our area, with some even including haylage, so to charge more gets no custom.

It makes me laugh when people moan about lack of turnout or facilities not maintained - maye if clients were prepared to pay more, then their yard would not be over stocked and have the funds to offer better facilites.

I now work part time and earn the same as when running my yard - also I get more time to spend with my own horses and family, and even have days off now too!

Good luck if you do go into it, but I would look at your figures very carefully.
 
LynH-I agree.
You can't make it pay. No-one is willing to pay what it *really* costs to keep horses well,to a good standard,on a decent,nicely maintained yard. My OH has a good job (and I used to!),otherwise,we'd never be able to continue the moneypit that is our livery yard! :/
 
More than 25 years ago I briefly ran a livery/training yard in the United States, even that long ago I was charging roughly twice what basic livery seems to be in the UK in 2013, and even at that I gave up the liveries as too much work for too little return. If there were fewer amateur, "doing it for the love" livery yard owners it would be better for the industry as a whole, although I think there would be far fewer horse owners (which might not be a bad thing.............)
 
Sidney said:
It makes me laugh when people moan about lack of turnout or facilities not maintained - maye if clients were prepared to pay more, then their yard would not be over stocked and have the funds to offer better facilites.
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*really* not wanting this to become a liveries v YOs thread, as there are enough of those ;) but this is a bit of a chicken & egg situation, surely?

If, as a livery, you are led to believe you will get a certain standard for your £x/month, then if it deteriorates, are you really expecting the liveries to offer more money spontaneously? I can totally sympathise with a YO putting their prices up to cover additional costs - as a livery I can then decide whether to cough up because I like the place, or leave and try to find somewhere else.

But I'm not going to offer more money without being asked first - I work hard for my pay too & keep my horse on a shoestring :o
 
I just find it strange that the yards around here that do charge the most and run them as a business paying the YM/YO a decent wage are all full. They have good quality facilities and charge out for all the extras so they can afford to fix and repair anything that breaks. The horses are fed good quality hay and feed and all look amazing. If a small few can manage to charge an appropriate amount and still be full, why can't this happen elsewhere? In the US they charge a lot more and people pay it. Of course people want to pay less and don't want prices to go up but if they are happy with the yard then they will pay the increase. It really is time that people stop running yards at a loss.
OP if you did run a yard and ran it well and as a business, is the price you would have to charge totally reasonable? So many liveries are unhappy with the inflexibility of many yards, surely those people would pay more to get the service they need.
 
If land costs at least £5000 and acre and a stable costs £1000, plus the costs of concrete, fencing, water, electric and that's before you add the cost of food and bedding, how can anyone make a living unless they are renting at a peppercorn rent or they are converted farm buildings and the fencing is already in place. They you have the cost of labour to factor in. The only way I would do it is if I was on a yard with a spare box next to mine so you would not be increasing your travel or labour costs by much, but is it worth the hassle.
I think racehorse training livery is about £300+ a week, which I think more like it but that include exercise
 
It's difficult, but not impossible to make it pay and not price yourself out of the market. DIY doesn't make financial sense, other than on economies of scale. I have a smallish yard that pays for itself, a groom and a wage for me, it doesn't pay the mortgage, though, hence I need other sources of income.
 
The first thing to do is get the feed companys hands out of your pockets. You buy good quality hay (though some folk wouldnt know what that looks like) . Most horses need very little hard feed ,if any ,providing the hay is good. Paying a bit extra for top class hay is far better value than hard feed at four times the price. Haylage is blooming expensive for what you get too. Its better and cheaper to buy clean hay.
 
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