How do you make the decision to leave a yard

Casey76

Casey76

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We're having a yard meeting on Thursday, I'm 95% sure the livery is going up again, which will be my third increase in 18 months, and more than likely push it over 400€ per month per horse.

The yard is already one of the most expensive in the area, and in fact the yard literally over the road has pricing from 150-300€ depending on the type of livery (out 24/7, box-paddock or box with turnout).

If the livery does go up it's going to mean some tough choices, as I can't justify paying 800€ a month for two when essentially I'm on DIY (I know, I choose to do all of the jobs, but only because I want things done properly), plus supplying my own feed.

The pros are really that I have a lot of latitude in what I do at the yard, it has never been mentioned how much straw or hay I use. Because I put them out myself they get more turnout, whether it is in a hardstanding pen or their paddock, than the other horses on the yard. I do my own hay, whether in nets or free off the floor, so they never run out; they have nice thick beds which are properly mucked out to the base every day. They get fed molasses/cereal/grain free food in amounts that I consider sensible. They get their required supplements every day without fail. They get boots on and off, rugs changed/adjusted as needed.

I have turnout, limited, almost every day of the year.

Cons are that I'm paying for a livery service which I don't use. The boxes are small (3x2.75m) though they are larger than many other boxes in my area. The YO is going through a tough time at the moment and seems to be taking it out on the clients. he is an ex-cattle farmer and barely knows one end of a horse from the other. They livery keeps going up and the services are being reduced.

If I moved I wouldn't be guaranteed turnout between Oct and Apr, I certainly wouldn't have the "luxury" of being able to do my own boxes, and many yards only offer mucking out 2-3 times a week, even in winter. I wouldn't be able to feed my own choice of food (most yards offer a basic mix with or without oats).

If I'm able to sell Blitz relatively quickly it will ease some of the financial strain, but Tartine is costing a fortune in various supplements and new rugs etc.

It would make more sense to move back to the yard which is actually in my village (though again, I'd lose many freedoms, and Tartine cannot be without turnout).

the atmosphere at the yard is so bad at the moment, more than one of my friends is threatening to jump ship and go somewhere else, which (selfishly) means the end of my social life.

I'm significantly tempted to ask the YO (who I've never had a spat with!) if he would consider doing me a DIY tariff and then I'd pay for hay and straw on top. It probably wouldn't work out much less expensive, but I'd feel less resentful, iyswim

Blah, I hate making decisions at the best of times, I hate confrontation, and do best when I just keep my head down and get on with things.
 
I'd go with your second to last paragraph, ask for a reduced DIY rate, seeing as you do it yourself anyway. If he won't budge, he's going to loose you anyway and most likely other liveries too.

It's a pain, but it's also hell of a lot of money....

Let us know how you get on! X
 
When to move?

When the cons outway the pros, or if there is a question of your horses welfare I suppose.

At the moment, from what you describe, I don't think I would be moving if I could afford not to. Horrible if there is an atmosphere though.
 
Reading your post it sounds less of a financial problem and more about the atmosphere/friends leaving. TBH you don't sound like someone who will cope on a yard where the care is insufficient. The one who *needs* turnout (exercise isn't enough to keep it sane?) won't get turnout in winter, so how is that going to work out? I don't know what it's like in France, but in the UK I've been on full livery yards who don't use enough bedding or muck out properly. They not only complain if you do your own mucking out (because of the extra straw used), but even if you buy in your own bedding (with no discount on the livery fee) they just give your horse less of their bedding instead, meaning you effectively can't even pay extra yourself to top up the bed, unless you buy all your bedding yourself. Ditto hay.

In your situation I'd stay put, get the jobs done as quickly as possible, hack more so you're off the yard away from the atmosphere and hope things improve in the YO's life so the atmosphere lifts. I wouldn't chance your luck asking for a reduction, I wonder if he actually wants to downsize and is happy for people to leave. Either that or he could have financial worries and the horse side of things is subsidizing the cattle side, in which case he'd be likely to be very unhappy asked to give a reduction. You said it wouldn't save you much money anyway. It might be a rotten yard to be on at the moment, but if it's the best of a bad bunch I'd stick with it.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Reading your post it sounds less of a financial problem and more about the atmosphere/friends leaving. TBH you don't sound like someone who will cope on a yard where the care is insufficient. The one who *needs* turnout (exercise isn't enough to keep it sane?) won't get turnout in winter, so how is that going to work out? I don't know what it's like in France, but in the UK I've been on full livery yards who don't use enough bedding or muck out properly. They not only complain if you do your own mucking out (because of the extra straw used), but even if you buy in your own bedding (with no discount on the livery fee) they just give your horse less of their bedding instead, meaning you effectively can't even pay extra yourself to top up the bed, unless you buy all your bedding yourself. Ditto hay.

In your situation I'd stay put, get the jobs done as quickly as possible, hack more so you're off the yard away from the atmosphere and hope things improve in the YO's life so the atmosphere lifts. I wouldn't chance your luck asking for a reduction, I wonder if he actually wants to downsize and is happy for people to leave. Either that or he could have financial worries and the horse side of things is subsidizing the cattle side, in which case he'd be likely to be very unhappy asked to give a reduction. You said it wouldn't save you much money anyway. It might be a rotten yard to be on at the moment, but if it's the best of a bad bunch I'd stick with it.
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It's not so much about sanity, but Tartine has PSSM, and movement is essential to keep her from tying up. If she was restricted to a box for 23 hours a day, then any form of exercise could actually trigger an episode, no matter how gentle and long the warm up.

He is always looking for ways to save money and make more money, but we are a yard of 30 horses with only 2 part time staff; services for a "livery" yard are cut to the bone as it is (which is why I do everything myself). Unfortunately the yard is the major source of income as he sold off the cattle (dairy herd), I have a feeling he would be a lot happier if he didn't have to deal with the clients, but as yet we have been unable to talk him into getting a proper manager again!
 
What if you approached a potential yard and explained Tartine's condition, they may allow winter turnout? Especially if your Vet produced a report to back you up?

Huge risk mind - I was promised winter turnout at one yard and I stressed how important it was as horse wasn't in work and the yard had nowhere to exercise at night that was lit. Got there, BOOM, no turnout AT ALL through winter.
 
I know the expense rankles when your doing the work you pay for yourself but the turnout and control you have would keep me where you are now .
 
I'm not sure why you are on a full livery yard and paying for the pleasure when you are looking after your own horses daily? I'd ask for a DIY rate too. I can't see how you've got anything to lose if you are polite. If the request is declined I'd start looking for somewhere else. Would it be possible to keep one at grass livery somewhere if he needs turnout?
 
twiggy2 said:
I would be moving purely due to the size of the stables, that can't be good for Tartine as it must restrict her movement so much when she is in the stable?
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My last yard the stables were 2.25x2.75 (and they still put 16hh+ horses in them), on the "posh" side of my yard (which are the original 8 boxes), they are 3x3 and 4 are 2.75x3.75, and apart from private stables, they are the biggest stables I've seen in over 20 yards that I've been to all over the region. Even in the "I have all the facilities but no turnout at all" posh yard their stables are only just 3x3.

(my old bedroom at my mums house is 12x11ft, and I can guarantee that I've never seen a box that big in France which has been on a livery yard).

We got some new hard standing pens, temporary fencing, for winter this year. They look awful, but are convenient for various reasons. They measure 4x4 (12'x12'), and my YO thought I was joking when I said that that was the size of a small stable in the UK.
 
With what livery is costing you, could you not get a loan and buy a patch of land to keep your horses on? I don't see how you can consider moving to a yard with no turnout, surely it would be a death sentence for your horse?

What do other people in your area do? Is it the simply the case that horse management is awful, all horses suffer a lot and everything that can't cope with the French livery situation is PTS? Or do people have some other ways of managing things? You've obviously found some solutions by doing the work yourself, I'm just wondering if there's anything else you could try. It looks like a desperate situation TBH and if all the yards are this dire I can't see how constantly moving yards hoping for something better is going to help, more you'd just be swapping one rubbish situation for another. UK livery yards for all their faults and inadequacies sound like paradise by comparison :(
 
meleeka said:
I'm not sure why you are on a full livery yard and paying for the pleasure when you are looking after your own horses daily? I'd ask for a DIY rate too. I can't see how you've got anything to lose if you are polite. If the request is declined I'd start looking for somewhere else. Would it be possible to keep one at grass livery somewhere if he needs turnout?
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Grass livery is almost unheard of in my area of France. As I said most yards offer no turnout at all between Oct and Apr. Mostly because the entire region is heavy clay and we're very hilly. The fields get destroyed at the first hint of wet weather, then they freeze into leg breaking ruts for 3 months

I actually don't like my winter field, as it's only on loan from another farmer. It is actually an oat field, and as it's used for crops and not pasture, after the first week there is not a single blade of grass in it. I'm not allowed to put hay in the field as there is no where to hang a haynet from. BUT, I have the biggest winter field on the yard, so as they say, beggars cant be choosers!
 
We had this a similar issue on the yard - the owner kept putting up the livery, cost of hay, bedding... and then started being a pain over the winter months regarding turn out, using the excuse of the wet weather - however it was odd, as the yards fields were not affected like other yards that were close by.

Then the actual employed yard manager kept causing issues, notices went up everywhere, emails were sent out.. and a bad atmosphere was caused...

Funny thing is, there was a reason for all this.. the yard went up for planning /redevelopment and it was obvious that the owner wanted people to leave.... to prove the site was surplus to requirements... and got approved for housing.

Do you think this could be your Cattle Farmers future plan - after all... if they are getting on in age.. and there is no family interest ion running the business... makes a yard easy to convert to a residential plot????
 
I am so sad for you. I don't think people in the UK have any understanding of how appalling many French livery yards are. Friends sent a big KWPN to a local Club for dressage schooling, I had never seen the yard and was shocked to discover it was a converted chicken farm with tiny stables in the converted barn. Another English friend worked on a yard where full livery was 600 euros/month. The stables were mucked out once a week, when she did them and the horses were being fed straw and not hay in winter.

We looked for a farm in Alsace for two years as we love the area and it was impossible to find what we wanted, which is why we live in the Loire. However, can you not have a hunt around for someone with a couple of hectares who would rent you a field? If you lived near me it would not be a problem. Then put up a DIY field shelter?

Out of interest how many hectares are available for turn out for how many horses?
 
I am leaving my current yard due to as stated by many people, cons outweighing the pro's.

I am moving to a family friends yard, who's old yard I was on (They sold and have done up a new place)

Horses have brand new big airy barn stables, I have lots of my own room for tack etc, they will get fed and hayed in a water to save me doing it (Huge life saver- this is where I am really struggling at the min) They have an amazing brand new school and all year turn out is available, whether I choose to use it or not. The people are all old friends and it is probably going to work out cheaper for me also.

Current yard everyone is lovely. Maintenance isn't brilliant, the school is small and not very good ( I have show jumpers so this is important) The stables are small. I was sad to hand my notice in, but it was a no brainer- really.
 
Rollin said:
Out of interest how many hectares are available for turn out for how many horses?
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This is my yard:
Yard%20and%20fields%20winter%202016.jpg


Red is summer grazing and blue is winter grazing. We have 9 acres / 3.6 (ish) Ha for summer grazing and 3.75 acres / 1.5 Ha for winter grazing

28 Horses and ponies
 
That is a small area for 28 horses, what are all the bits of land around the horses fields used for as it all looks rather confused with no structure to the grazing having random strips to use between what seems to be other grassland.

You have less land and probably less square foot of buildings/ storage etc for 28 than I have for the current 10, sometimes up to 14, here, I cannot imagine keeping horses the way they seem to in France, it just seems so odd when the cost of property and land is so low, in most areas, compared with the Uk yet you are paying a comparable livery rate, taxes are higher but there should be a market for someone to set up a decent livery yard with good boxes and plenty of turnout, if they can do it over here where an equestrian property in a popular area will be over £1m then why not in France where the property should be so much easier to come by.
 
I have just realised you are not paying a comparable amount for what your YO calls full livery, over here a proper full livery service would be higher but you would, or should, get a higher level of service, a daily muck out would be done as standard, you are essentially a DIY with bedding and forage included, your choice but one you are forced into because you want your horses to be in a clean stable, surely the YO is going about this in totally the wrong way, if he improved the service he could raise prices and keep clients happy, raising prices and having such low standards will mean people grumble or move.
 
When to leave is I suppose when the cons outweigh the pros and you have access to a viable alternative.

I'm feeling stressed out at the mere thought of French livery yards going by your description!!

I'd see if you can negotiate yourself a DIY rate and then also make a big effort to sell your second horse.
 
be positive said:
I have just realised you are not paying a comparable amount for what your YO calls full livery, over here a proper full livery service would be higher but you would, or should, get a higher level of service, a daily muck out would be done as standard, you are essentially a DIY with bedding and forage included, your choice but one you are forced into because you want your horses to be in a clean stable, surely the YO is going about this in totally the wrong way, if he improved the service he could raise prices and keep clients happy, raising prices and having such low standards will mean people grumble or move.
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It's a standard livery package: turn out/bring in, feed x2 and hay x2, muck out every day. (The yard I moved from had standard mucking out 1x per week in summer, 2x in winter, or you could have a "comfort package" where mucking out was 5x per week). Medication is included in the feed, but if you want a supplement it is an extra 30€ per month - unless you feed yourself.

I don't know anywhere that offers "full livery" including rug changes, feet picked, groomed, +/- exercise unless you go across the border into Switzerland, and then you are looking at approx. 1500CHF per month
 
be positive said:
That is a small area for 28 horses, what are all the bits of land around the horses fields used for as it all looks rather confused with no structure to the grazing having random strips to use between what seems to be other grassland.

You have less land and probably less square foot of buildings/ storage etc for 28 than I have for the current 10, sometimes up to 14, here, I cannot imagine keeping horses the way they seem to in France, it just seems so odd when the cost of property and land is so low, in most areas, compared with the Uk yet you are paying a comparable livery rate, taxes are higher but there should be a market for someone to set up a decent livery yard with good boxes and plenty of turnout, if they can do it over here where an equestrian property in a popular area will be over £1m then why not in France where the property should be so much easier to come by.
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Each stripe of land is owned by different farmers/farming families, it's how land has been parceled out in Alsace since antiquity. As often happens within farming communities, there can be a lot of tension and animosity between families, which can make life difficult. like the tiny stripe of green just tot he right of the school - that belongs to the rival family over the road, and there are so many stipulations on what can and can't be done with it.

All of the stripes just to the bottom right of the picture mix and match between farmers, and we have permission to ride on 1 of them, but not any of the others - sometimes the boundaries are not that easy to see, especially when they are laying fallow, but woe betide if you happen to stray into the wrong one!

A couple of years ago we (the royal we!) managed to negotiate for the use of another stripe which is just off picture to the right. As soon as the fence posts were put in we received complaints that they were too close to the other fields preventing proper cultivating/harvesting of them. As soon as it wasn't permanently occupied it reverted to the owner who managed to get it ploughed and seeded the same day the fence posts came up.

The stripe of land between the two "ladders" belongs to a sheep farmer, and he grazes his sheep on there periodically throughout the year. Despite the fact that it would make our lives so much easier if we could cut through the field (which is about 8m wide) for turnout into the orchard, we aren't allowed on the land at all - and strategic signs were placed when the whole stripe was re-fenced.

When I first came to the yard almost 5 years ago, we had 12 horses and 9.25 acres for both summer and winter grazing. Some of that was sacrificed to enlarge the school, and to put in 4 permanent hard standing pens, but it wasn't a significant amount.

Then again, this summer, despite most of the summer paddocks being less than 1/5 of an acre, some clients still complained that there was too much grass, and consequently their ponies ended up being stabled for 23 hours a day - which obviously doesn't engender good feelings about looking for extra grazing!
 
nothing helpful to add, as it seems like a hugely complicated situation. But just to say I don't envy you, whatever yard woes we have over here kind of pale into insignificance when faced with such complexity and politics! :o I hope you get something sorted that improves things for you.
 
milliepops said:
nothing helpful to add, as it seems like a hugely complicated situation. But just to say I don't envy you, whatever yard woes we have over here kind of pale into insignificance when faced with such complexity and politics! :o I hope you get something sorted that improves things for you.
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Thanks :) It is a nightmare.

Personally I think the yard was much nicer when we only had 16 horses. At that time we didn't have any demanding clients, we had a proper YM who worked almost full time (though her moods could also be volatile!), having fewer horses meant that turnout times were longer (less time to take back and forth), all of the boxes were mucked out to a reasonable level and the yard swept by a sensible time.

However it is always "better the devil you know"

There is only one other possibility in the area I would consider, but it is completely in the opposite direction, would make my commute to work at least twice as long, and possibly be difficult to get to in winter. :/
 
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