How do you manage Navicular?

[Illusion100]

It's my belief they need to work on different surfaces .
So mine work on the road on the grass and in the sand and rubber school .
I have easy access to a beach which is great for BF horses it's supportive abrasive and the salt water is great for thrush and the like .
But of course you need to near enough to make it work .

There is a school and the hacking provides road and grass, the lane from the fields to the yard is quite stony, so there are a number of different surfaces for her. Sometimes other liveries take a trip to the beach, so there is an opportunity to work that in now and again.

Although the mare is reluctant with tarmac/stony ground etc and stumbles a bit, I also think it would be better for her to exposed to these surfaces than just grass. We were chatting about this the other night and I explained that when mine went to his new yard, the walk in from the fields/to arena was really stony and he often hobbled a stride or two and was footy for a couple of weeks but now he's fine and his feet will be the better for it in the long run. She would feel guilty to watch her mare struggle with an uncomfortable surface but she's taking on board the reasons why it is necessary/helpful to persevere.

Having a beach nearby would be great for this mare as she does seem to be prone to thrush as well.

 

[Illusion100]

He has confounding issues so by the time the year is up he'll be broken down with fetlock DJD He was always happy without shoes from day one and his feet didn't really need to change shape either. It ultimately made no difference either way. He was walking for an hour a day happy on all surfaces in straight lines, living in a gravel yard, still 1/10th lame right fore left rein.

Really sorry to hear this.

 

[Illusion100]

Anyone have a recommendation of a bare foot trimmer in North Yorkshire?

 

[rara007]

Just something to be careful of- he went sound with foot nerve blocks hence we were treating those for 6 months religiously, when we wernt making progress he went back to the vets and found these other issues. He's only 10 so not vintage.

 

[stencilface]

Anyone have a recommendation of a bare foot trimmer in North Yorkshire?

I was recommended this guy from Nic at Rockley, and maybe we can make him visit if these two of us

http://www.natureswaynhc.co.uk/index.php

 

[tallyho!]

My only advice on trimmers is to use UKNHCP or EPAUK who are LANTRA accepted trimmers.

 

[Goldenstar]

I was recommended this guy from Nic at Rockley, and maybe we can make him visit if these two of us

http://www.natureswaynhc.co.uk/index.php

He does mine when they are bf , not really because he's got me trimming myself now.
He will teach the owner a lot if she got an enquiring mind I am not sure he'll drive that far though .

 

[Illusion100]

I was recommended this guy from Nic at Rockley, and maybe we can make him visit if these two of us

http://www.natureswaynhc.co.uk/index.php

Mare is in York so maybe...... You provide the tea and we'll rustle up a cake?!

Just spoke to Owner and mare getting worse so booked into Vets for a work-up next week.

 

[Illusion100]

He does mine when they are bf , not really because he's got me trimming myself now.
He will teach the owner a lot if she got an enquiring mind I am not sure he'll drive that far though .

Problem solved stencilface, we'll road trip down to Goldenstar, get the neddies trimmed up and go for picnic/hack on the beach!

 

[Goldenstar]

Problem solved stencilface, we'll road trip down to Goldenstar, get the neddies trimmed up and go for picnic/hack on the beach!

You would be very welcome !
But it would be road trip up it's always up to get here

 

[stencilface]

He does mine when they are bf , not really because he's got me trimming myself now.
He will teach the owner a lot if she got an enquiring mind I am not sure he'll drive that far though .

We will make cake, he'll come, I've already offered scones and homemade strawberry jam in my email

Is your friends mare off to Rainbow? They've always been great for me there.

 

[LizzieRC1313]

Horse one. Adequan, tildren, bar shoes and rest all failed. Lame for two years. Barefoot rehab sound in twelve weeks. Still sound after five years winning at showing and dressage and occasionally hunting.

Horse two. Bar shoes and long term rest with no shoes. Lame for four years. Barefoot rehab sound in twelve weeks. Put down for completely unrelated issues.

Horse three constantly pointing, but no formal diagnosis. Barefoot rehab. BE Novice after nine months. Died of colic seven years later.

Horse four not navicular but unsound on stones and about to be shod with pads. Barefoot rehab. Sound on stones in sixteen weeks. Still sound afaik.

Horse five, earlier than the ones above. Isoxuprine, bar shoes, rest. Failed. Loss of use claim paid out and horse returned to previous owners as a paddock ornament.

Horse six, diagnosis by MRI. Horse already barefoot prescribed bar shoes and given very poor prognosis of return to full work by a top three vet hospital. Sent instead to Rockley Farm. Sound in eight weeks and for the subsequent three years

Horse seven, bone spur on navicular bone. Barefoot rehab, never came sound I work. Put down.

These are the ones I have been personally involved with. I know of dozens more and barefoot rehab vastly, enormously, hugely, stunningly, outperforms conventional treatments. To such an extent that I think it is negligence that the majority of the veterinary profession are still taking no notice, and people are having to get their advice from forums like this instead

Can I ask if these horses were ever sound in bar shoes, or did they deteriorate when back in work?

 

[ycbm]

I didn't own one and two when they were in bar shoes, I only took them on after all else has failed, from owners desperate not the have them put down. . My recollection is that I was told that bar shoes produced a temporary respite and then lameness came back within a few months, but I know that's a common pattern of events and I may not be right about that recollection. Sorry I can't be more specific on them. Five was mine. Bar shoes improved but did not resolve his problems, he continued to be lame on corners. In retrospect, with what I know now, it's extremely likely that he had collateral ligament strains.

 

[Illusion100]

We will make cake, he'll come, I've already offered scones and homemade strawberry jam in my email

Is your friends mare off to Rainbow? They've always been great for me there.

Its been arranged, we're off to Goldenstars for a trimming session and beach party. We now need to add wine along with the scones and cake!

P.s. You're driving.

She is going to Minster, I suppose she'll be referred to Rainbow if they want to MRI though.

 

[stencilface]

It's crazy, but it could work! Fingers crossed her mare has just got a nasty abscess or something similarly simple though

 

[Illusion100]

My recollection is that I was told that bar shoes produced a temporary respite and then lameness came back within a few months, but I know that's a common pattern of events and I may not be right about that recollection.

Yep, apparently remedial shoeing for Navvy temporarily relieves pressure in the caudal area of the foot but shifts pressure rather than eliminating it, therefore after time the lameness will re-present.

I think this is why the BF/corrective/self trimming works so well as it addresses the natural balance of the whole foot rather than a specific area.

 

[LizzieRC1313]

Thank you, I ask as friend's horse has just been treated for navicular disease & the syndrome & arthritic changes as well as a tear in his ddft (I think?). The joint was cleared out and the tear repaired, so now he is sound and back in work in bar shoes. We are all praying he stays that way. I do think if mine ever develops Navicular though, BF is something I would definitely investigate if it was financially viable.

 

[Illusion100]

Thank you, I ask as friend's horse has just been treated for navicular disease & the syndrome & arthritic changes as well as a tear in his ddft (I think?). The joint was cleared out and the tear repaired, so now he is sound and back in work in bar shoes. We are all praying he stays that way. I do think if mine ever develops Navicular though, BF is something I would definitely investigate if it was financially viable.

Wishing all the very best that your friends horse stays sound and happy.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you, I ask as friend's horse has just been treated for navicular disease & the syndrome & arthritic changes as well as a tear in his ddft (I think?). The joint was cleared out and the tear repaired, so now he is sound and back in work in bar shoes. We are all praying he stays that way. I do think if mine ever develops Navicular though, BF is something I would definitely investigate if it was financially viable.

Arthritic changes are a different kettle of fish, I think. Most navicular syndrome lameness, by a long way, is caused by soft tissue damage to tendons and ligaments in the foot. I wish your friend well. You might, if the right moment arises, suggest that she checks that her horse is landing flat, or possibly slightly heel first on hard flat surfaces. If it is landing toe first, then that has been shown (Rooney) to be likely to cause ddft damage in future if it continues. If the horse is landing toe first, then the shoes would come off if the horse was mine.

 

[Illusion100]

It's crazy, but it could work! Fingers crossed her mare has just got a nasty abscess or something similarly simple though

Thanks. Will update after work-up.

 

[stencilface]

I think what's come out of this post is barefoot can sort many lamenesses that normally don't get fixed long term using commonly used methods.

But that there's also a difference between barefoot management done correctly, and simply taking shoes off.

 

[ycbm]

I think what's come out of this post is barefoot can sort many lamenesses that normally don't get fixed long term using commonly used methods.

But that there's also a difference between barefoot management done correctly, and simply taking shoes off.

Makes sense to me

 

[ladyt25]

No. Barefoot horses get navicular just the same way shod horses get navicular, only less often. It is caused by weakness in the back half of the foot, usually as a result of too little stimulation. (Though in your horse's case this could be as a result of the tendon problems).

So barefoot horses which live in too much for that particular horse, or who don't get enough ridden work, or whose feet don't tolerate less than perfect feeding, or who have metabolic issues, will get weak feet and are then prone to exactly the problems that cause lameness in shod horses.

The answer in all but the metabolic horses is the same as in the shod ones - work of the right kind and the right quantity, coupled often with allowing the horse to grow feet that balance whatever lack of straightness there is in its legs or body. That may mean actively resisting trimming, and working the horse on hard abrasive surfaces to get them to trim themselves, and accepting what may look like odd shaped feet as being what the horse needs.

If your horse was box rested for the tendon/ligament problems, then this will have increased the likelihood of ddft damage in the foot from a toe first landing, caused by weak heels, caused by the lack of stimulation of box rest. I feel for you, you have been caught between a rock and a hard place. I hope you manage to find a resolution.

This isn't my horse but my sister's and yes, he was part box rested for some period but has been out 24/7 for a long period (ours are all out 24/7 from Mar-nov/Dec really when a couple come in at night).
He has been in some light work, feet are good, not mis-shapen by any means and actually he has very good feet.
I just wonder whether some horses just don't cope so well barefoot.

 

[ycbm]

This isn't my horse but my sister's and yes, he was part box rested for some period but has been out 24/7 for a long period (ours are all out 24/7 from Mar-nov/Dec really when a couple come in at night).
He has been in some light work, feet are good, not mis-shapen by any means and actually he has very good feet.
I just wonder whether some horses just don't cope so well barefoot.

I don't have huge experience, but I was shocked by the last one I rehabbed. He had been field rested for a year or more, and when I brought him back into work by walking in hand he was still unsound in trot. He was sound in three months, but only because of the work, rest did him no favours at all.

There's no doubt that some are much more difficult than others. Metabolic issues are a serious problem. But I haven't found one yet in a huge variety of about fifteen horses which I couldn't get working hard with no shoes on, but I have a great environment for them. My only failure so far has been a friend's horse with a bone spur on the navicular. I'd never take on one with a bone spur on the navicular again myself.

The only thing I would caution about 'good' shaped feet is that if anyone is trimming them into shape then they might look good, but can still be completely wrong for the horse's conformation.

And you do need to distinguish between continuing navicular issues and problems coping without shoes. Sometimes it's difficult to see the wood for the trees.

 

[Illusion100]

What do we think about hoof boots for Navvy? Pro/cons?

If you've ever used them, what did you use them for, how often, on what surfaces and did they help or hinder? Which ones have you used?

 

[tallyho!]

I think hoof boots are well worth it in the early stages. With pads, they provide support to the whole hoof and allow the whole foot to work without the interference of stones or painful surfaces (at the time) eventually the boots come off and they can work with no boots on.

Tarmac by the way if you have some of the brilliant smooth stuff, is great for barefoot. It's smooth, flat and in walk provides a great surface to build strength.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

I think what's come out of this post is barefoot can sort many lamenesses that normally don't get fixed long term using commonly used methods.

But that there's also a difference between barefoot management done correctly, and simply taking shoes off.

Yes, of course.
I probably made it sound like all I had to do was take the shoes off my lad and hey presto, sound pony. And although he was sound when I trotted him up for the vet about a month after I took his shoes off, that was really just the starting point.

 

[criso]

What do we think about hoof boots for Navvy? Pro/cons?

If you've ever used them, what did you use them for, how often, on what surfaces and did they help or hinder? Which ones have you used?

I didn't use them for my ex Rockley horse. There would be a few things that would concern me especially if dealing with soft tissue strain as I was

- You wouldn't be able to see how the horse was landing
- The horse might be encouraged to work beyond what he was ready to do
- If you have a horse that needs to wear and grow an non typical hoof, it would prevent this process
- The weight/balance of hoof boots could affect the movement in a very subtle way that could be problematic with soft tissue.
- if you can't keep up with growth using exercise he may need trimming. That can cause problems if you can't find the right person who can trim sympathetically.


However neither do you want the horse moving when it's uncomfortable as that could not only cause problems with the feet like bruising but also problems higher up to compensate for not moving correctly. So I wouldn't say don't use them, I would just say be very aware of the factors above. Find some smooth tarmac and also if there is anywhere you can work in hand, mine will cope with a surface in hand before they can manage it with a rider. That way boots are only used some of the time.

I do use them for my non rockley horse as after time off and treatment for KS meant I was starting all over again with his feet. I needed them for one route only which had really evil stones but other factors like traffic and time of day means I sometimes need to do that route. They get used maybe once a week (out of 5 rides), the other days no boots.

 

[stencilface]

I don't have huge experience, but I was shocked by the last one I rehabbed. He had been field rested for a year or more, and when I brought him back into work by walking in hand he was still unsound in trot. He was sound in three months, but only because of the work, rest did him no favours at all.

There's no doubt that some are much more difficult than others. Metabolic issues are a serious problem. But I haven't found one yet in a huge variety of about fifteen horses which I couldn't get working hard with no shoes on, but I have a great environment for them. My only failure so far has been a friend's horse with a bone spur on the navicular. I'd never take on one with a bone spur on the navicular again myself.

The only thing I would caution about 'good' shaped feet is that if anyone is trimming them into shape then they might look good, but can still be completely wrong for the horse's conformation.

And you do need to distinguish between continuing navicular issues and problems coping without shoes. Sometimes it's difficult to see the wood for the trees.

My horse is the one in question. The quality of his horn is great, but his heels have slipped forward in front and his left hind where he had psd in 2011 has a lovely flare on the inside. His frogs have improved and are far less contracted. I have a post in vets with pics on.

I think I haven't been consistent enough with his work, and worked enough getting his feet balanced. Now with ddft damage he's definitely landing toe first, but I'll be honest I don't think we ever fully cracked heel first landing, flat landing maybe. That's why he'll be going to Rockley, with perhaps wedges initially (there's a waiting list for Rockley!) to relieve his feet as he's just not comfortable.

I hope if he's bf done properly I might future proof him for further lameness and might actually be able to ride him, whereas given his injury history the prognosis following remedial shoeing rehab is likely retirement.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would avoid hoof boots for a navicular horse if at all possible .
My experience is they interfere with break over the very thing your trying to influence .
However if the horses soles are so thin the horse is in discomfort you have to boot if your environment does not give you the option to manage without .