How do you manage your PSSM (or other myopathy challenged) horse

Casey76

Casey76

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After starting work up for being disunited in canter, on top of discovering T has abnormal ovarian activity, she has a presumptive diagnosis of muscle myopathy/ muscle metabolic disorder (I'm waiting for a PSSM type 1 test to come back at the moment), due to the nature of her increased enzymes.

She has been on a low carb (<10% starch and sugar combined) diet since May, so for her enzymes still to be so high (CK >1200, LDH >1000) is pretty telling too - the vet was surprised to hear she was already on a low carb diet with enzymes that high.

I still need to have a sit down with my vet and had a proper discussions about what is going on, but I managed to catch one of the senior partners while he was at the yard for another horse, and he basically said that I need to do lots of exercise with her, but only hacking, and then he raced off to another appointment.

So I'm feeling a bit up in the air, and after spending the past 2/3 days reading all I can on muscle myopathy disorders I feel my brain is going to burst.

The only positive thing about this is T has never had an overt reaction/tied up; so I'm hopeful that with management I'll get her on top form fairly quickly (well, in the grand scheme of things anyway)

I've ordered my vitamin E oil (though going through Equimins is a mare as they don't do automatic postage outside of the U.K., so I'm waiting for a postal quote by phone(!) before they send it out), and I've ordered my ALCAR (my protein.com has a random reduction using a code - I was lucky and got 35% off, so paid 45E for 1kg, rather than 63Euro.

I'm now trying to work out how I can get T hacking every day when it is dark both ends, and the lane outside the yard isn't safe at the moment as we have so many road closures in the area where everyone is now diverted up our lane :/
 
I have two, both on alcar, vitamin E and a half dose of selenium. Low sugar, high fibre, no add oil.

On that regime, mine are normal and I don't have to ride them every day. Off that feeding regime, they are as stiff as boards with rock solid bum muscles.

Hopefully, yours will be as reactive to the diet as mine are.

I have a quote of 700 pounds for 75 kilos of alcar if anyone wants to join me in buying it. I want ten kilos of it.
 
I have one in livery, she is on alcar, vit e, low sugar, high fibre diet, living out 24/7 in summer, has been ridden 9 days in 10 but has now begun to have the odd extra day off with no ill effects, she only had subtle symptoms that improved immediately she went onto the alcar/ vit e, she was already on a low sugar/ starch diet and out as much as possible.
Her main sign, other than the tight bum muscles was struggling to remain in canter, going disunited and at times hardly bending her legs, she started on the alcar/ vit e in March and is now working "normally" in all paces, I just hope she does not become more difficult to manage when she is in at night over the winter but guess that going onto 7 days a week exercise may be required even if it is just a lunge , she will get turned out every day but tends to be rather quiet in the field so barely does more than move from one bit of grass to another.
 
I have 2. My mare was given to me with behaviour problems and it was only when I restarted her under saddle I began to realise there was something physical amiss (I came across PSSM by accident & tested her via hair sample). Alcar makes no difference so she's on high fat. Needs at least 200ml a day alongside about 500g of Copra. I had to pull her off the grass in May because she was so stiff - & when she's stiff she hurts & lashes out. Never knowingly tied up but did have elevated enzymes when I had bloods done. Ridden or put on the horse walker every day. Takes over 30 mins before she can trot like a normal horse but getting better slowly. A lot less reactive and spooky than she was. I'm on DIY livery & managing a horse on a dry lot with soaked hay is v v hard work let alone needing to ride daily!
I got my little Belgian draft tested at the same time and he came back with a double copy of the gene. Practically non symptomatic - I'm convinced the old breeds where this gene originates have other things going on that compensate.
 
Do all PSSM horses have hard bum muscles? I've got a HW cob and sometimes I think he matches the pattern, to the point I pulled hair a month or so ago then decided he couldnt possibly have it as he moves so loosely and freely and his bum muscles are always soft. He does struggle with cantering in the school, but thats because hes never been asked to canter in the school until recently and hes got a huge back end and is croup high so its always going to be harder for him. But when you see him trotting he is so loose and forward, he just cant quite get his bum under him to canter properly yet.

But actually saying all that, I think I probably need to have him tested on reflection as its something that niggles at me that I keep revisiting!
 
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FrankieCob said:
Do all PSSM horses have hard bum muscles? I've got a HW cob and sometimes I think he matches the pattern, to the point I pulled hair a month or so ago then decided he couldnt possibly have it as he moves so loosely and freely and his bum muscles are always soft. He does struggle with cantering in the school, but thats because hes never been asked to canter in the school until recently and hes got a huge back end and is croup high so its always going to be harder for him. But when you see him trotting he is so loose and forward, he just cant quite get his bum under him to canter properly yet.

But actually saying all that, I think I probably need to have him tested on reflection as its something that niggles at me that I keep revisiting!
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No idea if they all feel hard.
The mare here appeared to move freely, the first time I sat on her she was softer than I expected for her stage of schooling and her bum muscles seemed to move it was only when I really felt them and compared them to others that I realised they were not as soft as they looked, the physio had not noticed other than she was generally tight in many areas, now she is loose it is so obvious how different they were before.
 
be positive said:
No idea if they all feel hard.
The mare here appeared to move freely, the first time I sat on her she was softer than I expected for her stage of schooling and her bum muscles seemed to move it was only when I really felt them and compared them to others that I realised they were not as soft as they looked, the physio had not noticed other than she was generally tight in many areas, now she is loose it is so obvious how different they were before.
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I keep going round in circles with it. He moves so, so, so well for a big fat cob, really loose and supple, until he canters in the school under saddle. But even then he makes the transition really keen and forward and then cant quite hold it so slowly ploughs onto his forehand. Its what I expect from a big green croup high lump at his level of fitness and he genuinely has cantered in the school a handful of times and gets better every time. he is going so well at the minute I am thrilled with him! I am also aware that I can be a bit ridiculous and look for issues where there really isnt any. I'm going to keep a very close eye and if he doesnt keep improving then I will definitely have him tested
 
SEL can I ask how long you tried the alcar for?

FC, with heavy genes, the research is showing that 60% will carry the genes for it but not all will show symptoms. I would compare his bum muscles with other horses around the yard. They can seem quite normal until you start feeling other people's bums!

I suspect it's a widely under diagnosed disease, with many 'lazy' or 'stroppy' horses working with it. I'm sure now that I've had at least one other in the past.
 
Can someone provide the link of the genetics company who take hair samples please? And is it a definitive diagnosis when that test is done or are their others that also need or could be done please? Also, do you then work with the vet once diagnosis is made or work it out on your own? Sorry, another question too! I've read about the feeding of vit e and alcar as a treatment, how does this work and how do you know how much of each to feed and are there are any particular types/grades/quality of those things that you need to get?
Apologies for all the questions but thanks in advance for help!
 
This is a really interesting thread for me, I've had ongoing issues with my mare for coming up a year now. Nothing massively serious but something just doesn't feel right. She doesn't use her back end properly at all, and last year started swinging her hind legs out however when xrayed her stifles looked fine so it didn't really make sense. She continues to have gait abnormalities but improves when ridden..ie. She's better at the end of a hack than the beginning (don't know if that is the usual case for PSSM horses). In winter there were occasions coming out of her box in the morning where she was so stiff it almost looked like she couldn't use her back legs - didn't really add up as she's only 6 and doesn't have any arthritis at far as I know. Just in the last couple of months she's also started with a major overreaction to flies, doing ridiculous muscle twitches repeatedly...I thought it was odd and wasn't sure why she was doing it but perhaps this is linked?
I hadn't even considered PSSM but perhaps it would be worth me getting her tested, she is a cob so fits the bill in that respect too.
 
chaps89 said:
Can someone provide the link of the genetics company who take hair samples please? And is it a definitive diagnosis when that test is done or are their others that also need or could be done please? Also, do you then work with the vet once diagnosis is made or work it out on your own? Sorry, another question too! I've read about the feeding of vit e and alcar as a treatment, how does this work and how do you know how much of each to feed and are there are any particular types/grades/quality of those things that you need to get?
Apologies for all the questions but thanks in advance for help!
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I had mine done in Manchester of you Google it. It only tests for type I, they know there is at least one other type, probably more. To get the other you need a muscle biopsy. Mine are negative on the hair and my vet agreed that their response to the diet makes a biopsy pointless.

You can use synthetic or natural vitamin E. Tests show that both work, but the natural version is twice as effective and you only need half as much. I now feed mine 5,000iu a day but some horses need double that or more.

Alcar is acetyl l carnitine (the acetyl is important, l carnitine is also sold). It's a breakdown product of an amino acid that these horses can't make for themselves, I think. There's only one quality and it's cheapest to buy it by the kilo from sports supplement supplies. I've just paid thirty a kilo, but it's gone right up in price lately and cheapest on eBay was 37 when I last looked. Feed ten grammes a day (I feed a little more just to be sure).
 
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Procrastination said:
This is a really interesting thread for me, I've had ongoing issues with my mare for coming up a year now. Nothing massively serious but something just doesn't feel right. She doesn't use her back end properly at all, and last year started swinging her hind legs out however when xrayed her stifles looked fine so it didn't really make sense. She continues to have gait abnormalities but improves when ridden..ie. She's better at the end of a hack than the beginning (don't know if that is the usual case for PSSM horses). In winter there were occasions coming out of her box in the morning where she was so stiff it almost looked like she couldn't use her back legs - didn't really add up as she's only 6 and doesn't have any arthritis at far as I know. Just in the last couple of months she's also started with a major overreaction to flies, doing ridiculous muscle twitches repeatedly...I thought it was odd and wasn't sure why she was doing it but perhaps this is linked?
I hadn't even considered PSSM but perhaps it would be worth me getting her tested, she is a cob so fits the bill in that respect too.
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I wouldn't test her, I'd just put her straight onto alcar and vitamin E and cut all sugar out of her diet and see what happens. She sounds like a very likely case to me, those are all symptoms. It used to be called 'Monday morning disease' because of how stiff working horses were on Monday when they had Sunday off.

Alcar doesn't work for all of them. If that does nothing, move her to oil instead, at least 200ml a day, and see if that helps.
 
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ycbm said:
I wouldn't test her, I'd just put her straight onto alcar and vitamin E and cut all sugar out of her diet and see what happens. She sounds like a very likely case to me. It used to be called 'Monday morning disease' because of how stiff working horses were on Monday when they had Sunday off.
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When you say cut all sugar out does that include grass? At the moment she doesn't get a hard feed but is out 24/7...
 
The mare here was not tested, she had undergone rather a lot of, probably unrelated, vet treatment last year so we wanted to avoid any further messing about as vets are not really clued up on PSSM and they had not got to the bottom of what was wrong previously, so would have been unlikely to just test, so after advice by pm on here we just started the supplements and saw an improvement within a week which was enough for us to continue.

She is also young, now 7, took ages to warm up, was napping at the start of a hack and could be uncooperative for no obvious reason, it was when her canter went pear shaped that it became obvious there was something going on that was not just a green horse being tricky, fortunately we had always taken the softly softly approach so she came round very quickly once she was no longer in constant discomfort, her attitude now generally is "can do" rather than "make me"!!
 
Procrastination said:
When you say cut all sugar out does that include grass? At the moment she doesn't get a hard feed but is out 24/7...
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With the really bad cases, yes. But both mine are fine with grass. I keep them in during the day when the sugars are highest, for their feet, so I don't know how they would cope out full time on summer. They are out full time now.

For the moment, don't feed anything that has any variety of added sugar in it. I feed chaff and oats, and a very low sugar timothy haylage. Ryegrass haylage can be an issue, commercial ryegrass is chock full of sugar!
 
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chaps89 said:
Can someone provide the link of the genetics company who take hair samples please? And is it a definitive diagnosis when that test is done or are their others that also need or could be done please? Also, do you then work with the vet once diagnosis is made or work it out on your own? Sorry, another question too! I've read about the feeding of vit e and alcar as a treatment, how does this work and how do you know how much of each to feed and are there are any particular types/grades/quality of those things that you need to get?
Apologies for all the questions but thanks in advance for help!
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haven't had time to read all the replies so sorry if already answered

http://www.animalgenetics.eu they will do the hair test for type 1

type one in the UK is currently diagnosed by muscle biopsy.

If you haven't got type one you may either test for type 2 or simply manage for type 2 and see if you get results. Many have just managed rather than do an invasive muscle biopsy. If you join the FB group "PSSM forum" you will see in the US they are starting to use a hair test for type 2. I think it will be available shortly in the UK via dried blood on a card sent to the US. Not cheap but not invasive. A lot of vets in the UK know very little or nothing about it. You are on your own. However the good thing is there is lots of info especially on the FB group and you can manage perfectly adequately without your vet.

As for feeding read the FB group especially the files and you will find lots of info as to why but I feed equimins natural vit E oil. Quality is important with vit E. I feed 8000 iu per day (525kg) I would happily feed up to 10000iu. That is around a teaspoon twice a day. Expensive around £19pm but the difference is remarkable. I feed alcar a 10ml scoop per day and difference is also remarkable,
I feed copra 1.5 lbs dry
dengie alfalfa pellets soaked 1.5lbs dry

micronised linseed
salt
equimins balancer.

Exercise is important, keeping them moving rather than stabled also. A very important thing for mine is rugging and exercise sheets. He must be kept over warm.
Hope that gives you a general idea.
 
Third time trying to post! Gremlins in the phone today.

I used Animal Genetics. It's only £35 ish and the trickiest part is making sure you've got a hair follicle instead of dandruff or lice!

I tried Alcar for 2 weeks with the mare and it had a nasty effect on her. She would go into wierd trance like states, eyes rolling at the sky, refusing to move & then suddenly explode out of them. 10 mins was the longest & i couldn't get her to move in any direction. I stopped it & she returned to normal. Tried again a while later & within 48 hours she was doing the same. Unpleasant & as it didn't have any positive effect on her movement we're sticking with oil!
 
Mine is on Vit E, selenium, magnesium, ALCAR, salt and Cool Stance Copra. He's out 24/7 but he does well on grass and I am careful he is well rugged up as the cold affects him. When there is no grass he has wet hay. He is ridden 5 days a week and is much better on day 5 but it is impossible to ride him 7 days. He is much better in the spring, summer and beginning of autumn, he can compete although sometimes he does become reluctant to go forwards. Winter is a huge step back for us and we can't progress at all, it's all about loosening him up and I do 50 minute long warm up sessions.
 
SEL said:
Third time trying to post! Gremlins in the phone today.

I used Animal Genetics. It's only £35 ish and the trickiest part is making sure you've got a hair follicle instead of dandruff or lice!

I tried Alcar for 2 weeks with the mare and it had a nasty effect on her. She would go into wierd trance like states, eyes rolling at the sky, refusing to move & then suddenly explode out of them. 10 mins was the longest & i couldn't get her to move in any direction. I stopped it & she returned to normal. Tried again a while later & within 48 hours she was doing the same. Unpleasant & as it didn't have any positive effect on her movement we're sticking with oil!
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some do react badly to alcar. I have a PPID one I tried alcar on. He didn't do the trance thing he just went crazy. No way was I riding him like that! I started again working up from 1/3 of a 10ml scoop very very slowly but once I got to half same thing happened. The other does great on it, calm and laid back. Just seems to be the luck of the draw.
 
paddy555 said:
some do react badly to alcar. I have a PPID one I tried alcar on. He didn't do the trance thing he just went crazy. No way was I riding him like that! I started again working up from 1/3 of a 10ml scoop very very slowly but once I got to half same thing happened. The other does great on it, calm and laid back. Just seems to be the luck of the draw.
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I'm guessing that it's more than one disease creating the same symptoms. My best ever vet told me yesterday he thing 'Cushings' is in the end going to turn out to be several different diseases because he sees such different outcomes with the same diagnosis.
 
ycbm said:
I'm guessing that it's more than one disease creating the same symptoms. My best ever vet told me yesterday he thing 'Cushings' is in the end going to turn out to be several different diseases because he sees such different outcomes with the same diagnosis.
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I think there is a long long way to go yet on PSSM, PPID and probably lots of other problems. Just hope I am still around in 10 years time to see what progress has been made. Looking back at PSSM I am sure I had an arab with this in the mid 80's. Diagnosed as azoturia and treated by AHT as imbalance calcium and phosphorous but just so similar to what I am seeing now. If only I knew then what I know now.
 
I knew a gypsy cob 20+ years ago who was so similar to my current mare that I'd guess she had PSSM. Owning 2 positive horses with such different symptoms makes me want to see more testing & understanding of how the genes work. If my Ardennes was a girl I'd have no problems breeding, but I'd hate to have another horse with my mare's symptoms.
 
It's such a minefield :(

My mare has just tested negative to type one which was a bit disappointing in a way as I really thought she had it!

Now treating as if type 2 but I've no idea if I'm going about it the right way. Someone recommended riding every other day instead of daily. Plus need to feed protein and selenium but I am struggling to find any info on quantities :(
 
I've never heard of them needing extra protein, but the dose for selenium is tiny and it is really poisonous and you should not supplement it unless you know that your horses aren't getting enough of it.

Try riding when you feel like riding and see what happens. Mine are fine with that, I don't need to ride every day, or even every week.

There's huge variety in how these horses respond to management and food. To an extent you just have to experiment and see what works for yours.
 
https://cvm.msu.edu/research/facult...ratory/type-2-polysaccharide-storage-myopathy

point 7 of this gives you a tiny bit of info re protein and amino acids. There is more info on the FB group :PSSM forum" All of Valberg's stuff is worth a read. All of the stuff on the Michigan state site is worth reading.

I notice a few days ago mention on FB of supplementing with lysine. Lots of info on the FB group if you want to see what others are doing. Mine is ridden daily which seems to work better for him. He gets alfalfa pellets/copra/linseed as protein. I also feed a supplement with 10g lysine and selenium.

There is no right way unfortunately. Just a case of adapting to the particular horse until you get the best management regime possible
 
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