How do you manage your PSSM (or other myopathy challenged) horse

3beasties - be careful with selenium, I would've guessed that my grazing was selenium deficient. It's only because I've had it tested that I know it's actually the opposite and that if I were to supplement my mare with selenium I would in fact be poisoning her because she gets over the RDA from her grazing alone!
 
Sorry I kind of posted and ran, I've only had my iPad for the past few days and it is difficult to read the forum properly with it.

I've been doing a lot of reading, joined the PSSM forum on Facebook which has a fab amount of info, though is quite US-centric. They have a pinned post which details the diet and this fabulous list of symptoms. I've highlighted (asterisked) the symptoms that Tartine shows, some of which, in hindsight, have been very blatant/obvious, though I would never have connected them with a myopathic disorder.

Horses with PSSM will usually display three or more of these symptoms:

Difficulty holding feet up for farrier
Biting at girth when being saddles
Swishing and wringing tail or pinning ears when cantering under saddle
Wanting to roll immediately after the saddle is removed
*Frequently rubbing haunches and shoulders on stall walls, posts, trees etc.
Hitch in trot that seems like they want to break into canter (similar to locking patella syndrome)
*Stiffness or difficulty bending in one or both directions
*Sore muscles behind saddle area after working
Sensitivity to grooming
*Staying camped out for an unusually long time after urinating
Regularly holding tail stiffly to one side
*Traveling heavy on the forehand and/or tripping or dragging toes when ridden
Holding their head low to the ground for unusually long periods of time when lunging
Striking out with foreleg when being lunged or ridden
*Lack of impulsion
Dislike/fear of being cross tied
Losing weight when stalled, even though well fed
*Difficulty picking up or maintaining a canter lead
Suddenly shying or spooking at “invisible objects” or objects they’ve been around before
Bucking or rearing under saddle for no apparent reason
Taking off at a gallop for a few strides when ridden, for no apparent reason
Showing distress in breathing that seems unrelated to allergies or heaves
Exaggerated hock or stifle action (sometimes extreme – like stringhalt)
Tying up (mild to severe episodes)
*Showing signs similar to colic (lying down, looking at stomach)
Rope walking
Bucking after jumps
Needing to be lunged before being ridden, especially after a few days off
*Difficulty developing a top line
Stall waling
*Difficulty collecting and bending properly
Click to expand...

I'm posting on my thread in Vet for the latest update on T :)
 
I haven't read that list for a long time - slightly breathtaking at how many of those symptoms Shiloh still shows despite being 7 months into rehab and feeling a million times better from where we were in January. If you do get a positive result then I would highly recommend getting a body worker out for your horse. Mine is qualified in a lot of different techniques and she's been out every 6-8 weeks since Jan - the difference is incredible.

There's quite a lot of UK folk on the facebook page who can support with UK products too. I tend to start any posts there with 'I'm from the UK...'. You'll also find the USA bods have a lot more access to helpful drugs than we do. Getting anything useful out of vets here is a challenge that I'm currently not winning!

{actually - just realised I've spotted you on facebook because you're in France. Can you access UK type feed products there?}
 
I'm on my phone so can't quote appropriately but want to say thank you to those who replied to my post.
Mare had bloods run about a year ago for muscle enzyme levels which were elevated but within less than 100 of the upper limits so vet was not concerned enough to investigate further. Horse is 'not right' but in no obvious way to pinpoint any particular problem. Reading the list of symptons posted it's frightening how many she fits. The only one that doesn't fit is that she gets sorer/worse the more she does, rather than better. I think I'll start with the hair test, see what it says and then maybe try a diet trial to see if it makes any difference. How long would be a good enough period of time to notice any changes?
 
chaps89 said:
I'm on my phone so can't quote appropriately but want to say thank you to those who replied to my post.
Mare had bloods run about a year ago for muscle enzyme levels which were elevated but within less than 100 of the upper limits so vet was not concerned enough to investigate further. Horse is 'not right' but in no obvious way to pinpoint any particular problem. Reading the list of symptons posted it's frightening how many she fits. The only one that doesn't fit is that she gets sorer/worse the more she does, rather than better. I think I'll start with the hair test, see what it says and then maybe try a diet trial to see if it makes any difference. How long would be a good enough period of time to notice any changes?
Click to expand...

Personality wise my mare changed for the better within a few weeks of introducing high levels of oil into her diet. I was treating her for ulcers before the PSSM diagnosis and they weren't improving (even though they weren't that bad). She was horrible to be around and you wouldn't dare spend any time in the stable with her. Leading her in from the field involved wearing a crash hat and using the dually halter. She had a complete personality change within a few weeks and became a lot safer and nicer to be around plus the ulcer symptoms vanished. Getting her right under saddle is taking a lot longer and I only saw improvement when she came off grass. Mine NEEDS oil! I can't go below 200ml a day and I get a lot more zoom at about 500ml. She is so sensitive to sugar that an accidental net of haylage meant I had a super exciting (scary) ride followed by a stiff horse for 48 hours. Its odd, but that's her metabolism I guess.

Results from the hair test only take about 10 days and its cheap so well worth a shot. A diet high in fibre but low in sugar and starch won't do your horse any harm in the meantime either.
 
SEL said:
I haven't read that list for a long time - slightly breathtaking at how many of those symptoms Shiloh still shows despite being 7 months into rehab and feeling a million times better from where we were in January. If you do get a positive result then I would highly recommend getting a body worker out for your horse. Mine is qualified in a lot of different techniques and she's been out every 6-8 weeks since Jan - the difference is incredible.

There's quite a lot of UK folk on the facebook page who can support with UK products too. I tend to start any posts there with 'I'm from the UK...'. You'll also find the USA bods have a lot more access to helpful drugs than we do. Getting anything useful out of vets here is a challenge that I'm currently not winning!

{actually - just realised I've spotted you on facebook because you're in France. Can you access UK type feed products there?}
Click to expand...

Thanks :) I actually import Agrobs directly from Germany - it would appear that my supply is actually more consistent than it can be in the UK - the only plus I've seen about keeping horses in France recently lol!. I haven't bothered with a forage analysis as our hay changes every 3-4 days, so I soak it for 12 hours just to be on the safe side. But all of my supplements have to be imported from the UK (usually at horrific cost).
 
Thankyou SEL. She's in during the day with a double netted soaked net of last year's hay and on a bare paddock overnight. Only fed agrobs leichtgenuss (sp) and equimins advance complete, so as low sugar/starch as I can make it. Tried to take her off grass completely but became so lethargic she was nearly pts as we couldn't figure out what it was. She has EMS so it's an ongoing juggling act to keep her weight right! No attitude problems (thank goodness!) But worth keeping in mind and interesting how quickly you saw changes. Thankyou :)
Eta- how much chaff do you have to give to get that much oil in yours?! And any particular oil and do you find weight gain a problem giving that much?
I could do with mine having more 'ooomph' and she does fitness/hillwork already but feel a change to her feed could maybe help but it's balancing oomph giving with low sugar/starch and weight gain issues which is proving tricky.
 
Last edited:
I use kwik beet to soak up the oil. If it's made the night before it gets a crumbly texture bit like cake mix and hides 200ml of veg oil pretty quickly. I add a bit of linseed oil but I mainly use veg oil (rapeseed) from the supermarkets. A lot of the diet purists will mutter about omega 3 & 6 and processed oils - but I use a lot of the stuff & it's kinder on my wallet.

On grass Shiloh ballooned but she lost 50kg off the grass and has stayed pretty stable no matter how much oil I pump into her. She's mainly draft breeding so chunky anyway and given we're on a yard of thoroughbreds she's always going to be the fat girl!
 
Casey76 I may have mentioned this before but Thunderbrooks France (not the UK site) is worth looking at for chaff and Cool Stance Copra. Equimins sends me vitE and eBay is a good source for ALCAR is large quantities.
 
Started my pony on Vit E And Alcar yesterday. I have to say though that I'm not optimistic it's going to improve her, I feel like I've been down so many avenues trying to find out what is wrong with her that it couldn't be something this simple which is going to make the difference. Read the pinned post on the Facebook group and she does fit a lot of the symptoms...time will tell I suppose!
 
Procrastination said:
Started my pony on Vit E And Alcar yesterday. I have to say though that I'm not optimistic it's going to improve her, I feel like I've been down so many avenues trying to find out what is wrong with her that it couldn't be something this simple which is going to make the difference. Read the pinned post on the Facebook group and she does fit a lot of the symptoms...time will tell I suppose!
Click to expand...

If Alcar doesn't work then try adding oil into the diet. There's a fair few people who've had remarkable improvement with that even when their horses haven't got PSSM. My local supermarket must think I'm running the local fish & chip shop the amount of vegetable oil and salt I buy....
 
SEL said:
If Alcar doesn't work then try adding oil into the diet. There's a fair few people who've had remarkable improvement with that even when their horses haven't got PSSM. My local supermarket must think I'm running the local fish & chip shop the amount of vegetable oil and salt I buy....
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll see how we get on with the Alcar. I'd be reluctant to add oil to her diet as she is a ridiculously good doer and far too fat as it is - praying for a hard winter....
 
The best regime I found on researching about EPSM was:

ERS pellets
Micronised Linseed top up in winter
Equine America Tye-Guard (selenium and vitamin E)
Night turnout on grass, day turnout non-grass
Timothy hay
Always rug appropriately
Very regular exercise - every day (just some days lower impact)

The aim is to get as close to this as regime possible and diet wise as much oil in as you can safely with fibre and very very low carb.
 
Please be VERY CAREFUL using vitamin E and selenium combined. Selenium is exceptionally poisonous for something that a horse needs to have. Many PSSM horses need very big doses of vitamin E, which would give them a harmful dose of selenium. It makes their feet drop off, seriously :(
 
Last edited:
having looked up equine america tye guard I cannot find how much vit E it delivers but I suspect it falls a long way short of the 8- 10000 iu many need. In the list of ingredients the first 2 ingredients are water and sugar.
 
For SEL (and others for info) - this is the diet my vet recommended for Tartine:

10kg hay soaked for 10 mins
0.5kg Lucerne cobs
0.5kg rice bran
100ml linseed oil
20g Makana vitamin E
Salt

Seriously T would be as big as a house in a week if I fed that every day!

I'm writing back to say thanks, but this is what I'm feeding Tartine, "if that is OK"

5kg hay soaked 12 hours
1kg hay replacer (<10% sugar and starch combined)
0.5g grass nuts (<10% sugar and starch combined) - soaked
200ml micronized linseed
10ml Natural vitamin E oil (10,000 IU)
10g ALCAR
(plus vitamins and minerals)

T still needs to lose quite a bit of weight, so I prefer to keep her in diet mode for the time being, and after I can add a suitable non-inflammatory oil. I'm considering using spirulina to increase the protein or even just plain lysine. I'm keen to avoid lucerne as I don't want to upset her feet (and she's never had Lucerne before so I don't know if she would react or not)
 
Casey76 said:
For SEL (and others for info) - this is the diet my vet recommended for Tartine:

10kg hay soaked for 10 mins
0.5kg Lucerne cobs
0.5kg rice bran
100ml linseed oil
20g Makana vitamin E
Salt

Seriously T would be as big as a house in a week if I fed that every day!

I'm writing back to say thanks, but this is what I'm feeding Tartine, "if that is OK"

5kg hay soaked 12 hours
1kg hay replacer (<10% sugar and starch combined)
0.5g grass nuts (<10% sugar and starch combined) - soaked
200ml micronized linseed
10ml Natural vitamin E oil (10,000 IU)
10g ALCAR
(plus vitamins and minerals)

T still needs to lose quite a bit of weight, so I prefer to keep her in diet mode for the time being, and after I can add a suitable non-inflammatory oil. I'm considering using spirulina to increase the protein or even just plain lysine. I'm keen to avoid lucerne as I don't want to upset her feet (and she's never had Lucerne before so I don't know if she would react or not)
Click to expand...

You may have seen and decided to soak for 12hrs anyway but there is quite a lot of fairly recent research which suggests soaking for 1 hour in cold water is actually plenty long enough for removing NSC whilst still retaining the nutrients and protein. Like you I soaked my hay last winter for 12 hours, my mare didn't drop a huge amount of weight which was disappointing but what I also noticed was that her coat quality, mane/tail growth and hoof growth all also suffered which I think may have been down to lack of any kind of goodness in the hay (despite supplementing her with bits) I'm going to try soaking for an hour this year instead and see how we get on.
 
Procrastination said:
You may have seen and decided to soak for 12hrs anyway but there is quite a lot of fairly recent research which suggests soaking for 1 hour in cold water is actually plenty long enough for removing NSC whilst still retaining the nutrients and protein. Like you I soaked my hay last winter for 12 hours, my mare didn't drop a huge amount of weight which was disappointing but what I also noticed was that her coat quality, mane/tail growth and hoof growth all also suffered which I think may have been down to lack of any kind of goodness in the hay (despite supplementing her with bits) I'm going to try soaking for an hour this year instead and see how we get on.
Click to expand...

Soaking for 12 hours fits in with my stable routine better tbh; though when it starts freezing I may have to have another think!
 
Really interesting thread! One of ours displays a few of the symptoms above so I'm tempted to try adding ALCAR and vit E, are there any negatives to trialling them? Would you go in at full doses and see what happens or build up?

For reference she's a 13 year old Friesian cross who holds her weight well, but does display a couple of the behaviour signs above along with a little muscle soreness that we cannot identify a source for...
 
AlexHyde said:
Really interesting thread! One of ours displays a few of the symptoms above so I'm tempted to try adding ALCAR and vit E, are there any negatives to trialling them? Would you go in at full doses and see what happens or build up?

For reference she's a 13 year old Friesian cross who holds her weight well, but does display a couple of the behaviour signs above along with a little muscle soreness that we cannot identify a source for...
Click to expand...

We just went ahead and put in the full amount from day 1, I think there were a couple of days between starting the vit e and aclar but only because we were waiting for it to arrive, the first signs of improvement happened within days so it is worth trying.
 
be positive said:
We just went ahead and put in the full amount from day 1, I think there were a couple of days between starting the vit e and aclar but only because we were waiting for it to arrive, the first signs of improvement happened within days so it is worth trying.
Click to expand...

Thank you, can I be super lazy and cheeky and ask where you buy them from and what amounts should be fed? Does it depend on body weight?
 
AlexHyde said:
Thank you, can I be super lazy and cheeky and ask where you buy them from and what amounts should be fed? Does it depend on body weight?
Click to expand...

Natural vitamin E can be bought from Forage Plus, Progressive Earth (ebay) or Thunderbrooks - I've used all 3 at times depending on what offers are on and what else I'm buying. I don't use Alcar any longer but when I trialled it on mine I got it from Bulk Powders which sells human grade stuff - I don't remember it being very expensive unlike the vitamin E which is really pricey!
 
Casey76 said:
Soaking for 12 hours fits in with my stable routine better tbh; though when it starts freezing I may have to have another think!
Click to expand...

If you're soaking for that long (I do - for same reason) then you need to add in a decent vitamin & mineral balancer. It isn't just the sugars that get leached out it also loses magnesium and potassium and puts them out of whack with the calcium - which doesn't leach to such a great extent. Forage Plus laminitis balancer is the one I use but my trimmer said last night that my horses recent unpredictable behaviour might be due to her needing more magnesium & / or potassium so I'm having a bit of a rethink about either adding them in or reducing the amount of soaking time.
 
SEL said:
If you're soaking for that long (I do - for same reason) then you need to add in a decent vitamin & mineral balancer. It isn't just the sugars that get leached out it also loses magnesium and potassium and puts them out of whack with the calcium - which doesn't leach to such a great extent. Forage Plus laminitis balancer is the one I use but my trimmer said last night that my horses recent unpredictable behaviour might be due to her needing more magnesium & / or potassium so I'm having a bit of a rethink about either adding them in or reducing the amount of soaking time.
Click to expand...

Yep, they are both on ProLaminae+ (which I thought would cut out the need for multiple bags and pots in my locker... nope!)
 
SEL said:
Natural vitamin E can be bought from Forage Plus, Progressive Earth (ebay) or Thunderbrooks - I've used all 3 at times depending on what offers are on and what else I'm buying. I don't use Alcar any longer but when I trialled it on mine I got it from Bulk Powders which sells human grade stuff - I don't remember it being very expensive unlike the vitamin E which is really pricey!
Click to expand...

Thanks :).
 
Really struggle to know what quantities to feed?

Alcar - 10g? Is that about 2 teaspoons?

Whey protein - does anyone feed it?

Currently mare is on

Vit E
Alcar
mag ox
salt

She's fed a scoop of winergy low energy a day. Sparse grass and about half a bale of hay.

She's still pretty flat/lacks energy so I am thinking of trying her on oil - Is it OK to feed large quantities of oil (veg) alongside all the above?
 
AlexHyde said:
Really interesting thread! One of ours displays a few of the symptoms above so I'm tempted to try adding ALCAR and vit E, are there any negatives to trialling them? Would you go in at full doses and see what happens or build up?

For reference she's a 13 year old Friesian cross who holds her weight well, but does display a couple of the behaviour signs above along with a little muscle soreness that we cannot identify a source for...
Click to expand...

yes go in at the full dose but not both at once otherwise you have no idea of the results for each. I got results from vit E (the equimins one) after 3 days, horse was just a bit nicer which for him meant less in pain. I would get her on vit e for a week at least first. Alcar may or may not produce side effects. I would introduce alcar slowly over a few days. Side effect is it winds them up and sends them over the top. One of mine went over the top and I had to give up. The other is fine on a 10ml scoop per day. If I miss one day he is still OK, if I miss 2 days her gets worse and it is obvious he needs it. Back on alcar for a day and he is great. Alcar works quickly.
I got alcar from bulk powders. The advantage to them is you can buy very small quantities so you can try it without spending loads if it doesn't work.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top