How do you progress when your horse lacks a trainable attitude?

kirstie

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Hi Everyone, I am a longtime lurker of this area of the forum and occasionally post. I am at a loss with my horse/ seriously starting to run out of patience.

She is a 10yr old Trakehner, I have had her since she was rising 4. I backed and started her myself which was easy, she was a delight until she hit her 5th year. She is a dominant and bossy mare and has always been like this. If I give her 1/2 an inch she will take 10 miles, I've always had to be very consistent, firm and fair with her and on the ground 99.9% of the time she is lovely.

Ridden wise she is a different kettle of fish. She is dominant and bossy, constantly questioning me, finding clever little evasions that are difficult to notice and generally has the answer 'no' ready for me most of the time. She has bundles of talent, is more than able and actually finds the work physically easy most of the time, however whenever I try and progress, start taking the work up a level she protests. She will initally co operate with what I ask, maybe a few small evasions and then grasp it easily and find it physically easy. Then next session that we work on that particular movement, she will 'up the ante' evasion wise and will sometimes abjectly refuse to do what I ask. At this point I have tried many tactics including changing the subject and coming back to it, gradually building up to it, keep consistently and calmly working through it in the hope she will eventually co operate and tackling it head on, resulting in a battle. Once she decides that actually what I am asking is not so unreasonable (normally after a battle) we can move forward- this can sometimes take up to a month or more to happen. For example, it took me just over 6 weeks to be able to ride forwards into a halt and her remain soft. Or pick up the rein in halt and ask her to soften. She literally just said NO everytime. It's also worth mentioning that when she says no to something new, she will then pretty much down tools to everything and will refuse to anything- even if it's very basic. Once she has decided to co operate there are rarely further issues, she just gets on with it.

I really try and have relaxing stretchy sessions with her but it is so difficult- I end up having to pick her up and really work her as she just messes about so much.

This is how it has always gone and to be honest I am starting to get fed up. We have had many set backs, including a bad injury to me, a year off and another year trying to get my confidence back, so are behind in our training anyway.

I am having lessons with an excellent trainer and will chat with him about it tomorrow but am just looking for opinions and other experiences. I am happy that there is nothing physically wrong I really think it her down to her temperment and willingness to work. Or maybe personality clash.

I really want to get out and competing with her this year- aiming to be scoring decently at Elementry by the end of this year and medium next year. I want to get out monthly through the summer at novice- I just want to enjoy my horse.

If anyone has any suggestions, experiences or anything, I'd be really willing to listen.

I've looked at her feed, work management, teeth & saddle done regularly, turnout... Please help!
 
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Molasses

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I just want to enjoy my horse.

Just that, what do you do outside of schooling? Does she get to jump/hack/gallop?
Your post mentions only schooling, what's she like when you're doing something fun like splashing about in a stream or whatever. When I've a backward thinker a good gallop will get them forward thinking and I can 'fool' them into enjoying it.

Sometimes brains need a break from a you V me set up and instead a you & me
 

kirstie

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Thanks for your reply.

She generally has 4x schooling sessions a week and either a hack or pole work/ jump session a week which she enjoys. I take her for a canter around the fields when the ground is good. Galloping is out, she is very sharp and has a sudden stop- spook- spin manoeuver that I find difficult to stick to! A good canter is my limit!

A few of my friends are going to the beach next weekend and I think I'm going to take her... Should be interesting as she hates running water, though I'm hoping she'll enjoy it and have fun.
 

oldie48

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I also have a difficult horse that I've struggled with for 5 years. He's great to hack, jumps with a complete lack of enthusiasm but does it, is a bit spooky to XC school but flatwork is really hard work. Which is a bit unfortunate as I bought him as a dressage schoolmaster. He's like this with much more experienced riders than me, which in a way is some compensation but in another way rather depressing! I've recently been having lessons with someone who backed him and rode him regularly until he was sold at 6. I now know he's always been like this, it's not that he's bored with flatwork, been over competed etc It's his temperament inherited from the stallion who was also known for being lazy, opinionated and ungenerous, despite competing at GP (pity I didn't know this!) You can't change a horses temperament and despite my horse having lovely paces and finding the work easy when he plays ball, he'll never be reliable as like yours, he has a huge bag of evasions ready to chuck at me whenever I give him an inch. Before others suggest checking back, tack, teeth etc, this horse is absolutely 100% fit and healthy. My trainer said to me several months ago that my horse had taught me a lot but that I deserved something easier, I think the same may be said of you too.
 

dianchi

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Work her higher than you want, so that when you drop back to "easier things" she will give in and do this as she thinks that you want tougher things.

Personally I would swap your routine, and school once and hack 4 times a week and see if that lightens her up.

Sometimes you have to convince mares!
 

kirstie

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Thanks for the replies. I do often wish I could have an easier, more compliant horse. With maybe less talent and wow factor but a feeling of 'I'm trying'. If I felt she was struggling but trying even a bit I wouldn't mind.

Unfortunatley where I am at the moment has no hacking about from a single track and a field to ride around and in, which is boring even once a week. I used to hack her more at previous yards and to be honest she was even worse then. She isn't fun to hack. The yard I am at now is on a very busy main road that I wouldn't contemplate even riding a bombproof horse on, it's dangerous. Generally after a hack or jump/ fun session she is worse than normal and more argumentative.

I've tried giving her variety in her work, tried drilling her, giving her time off, nothing makes any difference. Don't get me wrong, we are improving but it is at such a slow pace and the journey is frustrating, slow and unenjoyable. My back is in spasm today from last nights episode. I had to get off in the end. I was just asking for a bit of on and back in the trot, with the onus on working on collection and her taking more weight back, then allowing her to relax and go forward for the working trot. She finds this easy, but has decided at the moment she doesn't want to do it. To the point I could not even get a nice working trot in any kind of frame other than giraffe, no walk, no halt, nothing. Toys all out of the pram. I gave up in the end and just got off. I don't want battles, I don't want my back to be in spasm today.

I have done my fair share of convincing, however she is not easy to convince!
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle

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ive had to teach mine to have a work ethic.
he came to me as a 4yo, having raced a few times as a 2/3yo but seriously jacked it in-wouldnt go in the stalls, wouldnt come out, kept napping and standing up and then broncing his work rider off etc etc.
he was reasonably easy to re-back but genuine forward, in front of the leg, movement was a no no and he spent about 6 months standing up in every transition.
over his 5/6/7yo years he improved but was still hugely unpredictable both at home and in the ring. He could score 65-68% one week and be eliminated or retired for napping the next.
He does the most vile manouvres, almost props to a stop with his back arched and jumps vertically off all 4 feet but travels backwards in the air and then rears and does 360 on his back legs.

I really tried to get to the bottom of him physically and mentally as an 8yo-enough was enough and i do feel ive made some big steps forward.

He's a cold, idle, backward thinking horse and he's miles better at a show if the day before is spent bombing round in a light seat canter, being encouraged to buck and squeal and mess around. I have to put some *goodwill tokens* in the pot so the next day at the show ive got a little bit of it to fall back on-if i drill him too much he will tell me quite clearly to go swivel!

he doesnt hack except on very still,hot,summer days (too sharp and dangerous almost) and isnt a huge fan of poles(refuses to jump at all really) but he's a very cocky brave horse and ive done a lot of work in the last few months using spooky objects (big tarpaulins, a tunnel of fillers with flapping bags on, umbrellas in buckets etc) to work round, trying to encourage him to peep and puff up and piaffe a bit so he learns to turn negative tension in to positive work. He likes this as it gives him a chance to show how big and brave he is and also teaches him not to nap and drop behind my leg if he is unsure about something.

he resents being niggled or tickled with a long whip so i tend to carry a short whip for the first 10mins of my warm up, give him a good belt at the first sign of napping, and then put it down. The longer i carry it the more likely he is to try and drop me when i do put it down-memory of an elephant.

he is fed like a 3 day eventer, lots of quick release enery food. He needs to feel well in himself and really *buzzy* or he isnt interested in working.

You need to find out what makes her tick an try and let her have it her way when it doesnt matter so she digs a bit deeper for you when it does. Thinking that they have to do it your way 100% of the time doesnt work with these sorts.

Mine is 9yo now, has qual regionals and area festival champs at psg, done his first inter 1 and is schooling GP.

ETA-you may never eradicate it, in his last test (inter 1) he mistakenly tried to ext canter off the corner when we should have been collecting for a piri, i over half halted and he stopped and then kicked back with both legs like "F U stupid woman what do you want"...........he came round again and stopped and thought about going up but then decided to give me another chance.
i do have to be careful to hold my hand up and let him know when its me at fault.
 
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Supanova

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I really feel for you. I have a very similar mare and have had so many ups and downs.......I am not sure what advice I can offer because i have not successfully resolved my situation, but some thoughts:
- What does she actually do when she says NO?
-How do you reward her when she does something well? Do you reward her for even the little tries? I have found that because my mare frustrates me so much that i perhaps ignore the little things she does well (whereas i wouldn't with another horse) because i am always thinking she could do more. However, if i really try to recognise the little things, she tries harder for me.
- Are you 100% sure about the physical side?
- Is she worse in season? Have you kept a diary of the good days and bad days? Would regumate help?
 

kirstie

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Thanks for your post PS, you have hit several nails on the head for me. My girl is pretty much the opposite to your boy in her reaction to throwing the towel in. Her first port of call is usually running through the bridle camel style. She is very forward and always wants speed and will rush when the going gets tough. Then, if that fails she will set her neck against me, start spooking at ghosts, leaping in the air etc. When all else fails, she slams the brakes on. She is generally forward and in front of my leg.

I think our main issue is a dominance and contact issue. The first evasion is always in the contact.

I have yet to find what makes her tick, I feel it is all very 'on her terms', particularly the contact. If she goes well and works hard, I feel that it is because she has decided that she is going too- I don't have any real bearing on the outcome. If she is going to be a moose, it is because that is what she wants to do that day. I think the problem I am having now is, I want the work to be more on my terms and less on hers, which is causing major friction. I can't see how we can progress otherwise. I know I can't have it all my way but a bit of give and take would be good!

She just tend to work better in the summer, she doesn't like being cold so I factor that in in the winter.

I do find it inspiring that you are doing so well with your boy and that does give me hope. I am working hard at it, I try and plan sessions and think about how I am going to ride (then have to change tack when it all goes wrong), I have a really good trainer, I think about her feeding, tweak it, think about her turnout, tweak it, try and give her fun sessions, hack, grooming, fuss, bonding... Other people have ridden her and commented on how tricky she is and that I make it look easy... It really is not. I just need to find what makes her tick but what works one time won't work another day...
 

ester

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Is she the same if your trainer rides her? Has she ever been to stay with someone else for a bit?

Just wondering whether it could be, as you say, a clash of personalities/you getting frustrated with eachother.
 

kirstie

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Supanova- she does love verbal praise and I lavish that one her when she is going well, even for the basics. She hates her neck being touched, so I don't do that. She responds very well to my voice.

She is generally worse in the winter and no different if she is in season or not. She does hate rain so I'll tend not to ride if its lashing down.

I've had everything checked and she is in tip top condition. I'm confident it's mental and not physical. I have got a massage machine I'm going to try and see if that helps.

My old trainer rode her once and she was even worse. I want my current trainer to have a sit on but he has been really poorly so ground bound. I'm going to ask him to have a sit on if he is feeling well enough tomorrow. He is fab actually, really calming and can get me challenging her in a positive way. It's generally a session or 2 down the line she'll throw it back at me and down tools. By the time I've had another lesson I've worked through it and all he sees is an improvement! I generally have lessons once a month due to finances but going down to fortnightly so he can see the issues I'm having.

I've never sent her elsewhere, I can't really afford that I don't think. No one else has ever ridden her very regularly though when people do ride her she is generally much worse.
 

foxy1

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I know you probably don't want to hear this but it sounds like it could be a physical problem. You wrote " she hates to be touched on the neck" which rings alarm bells to me.....
Don't think of lameness as the only symptom of pain, it can manifest in many ways
 

kirstie

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Sorry, wasn't clear. Neurotic about having her mane pulled. If you touch her neck near her mane she thinks your going to pull it, so she doesnt appreciate a neck rub as most horses would. Fine to groom etc.

I've had full work ups by my vet (the last check at the end of jan) regular saddle and back checks, teeth etc. If she is physically not happy about something for example her saddle I know about it very quickly.

She works absolutely beautifully when it goes well and when she is protesting about something, once I've convinced her to co operate she is very quick to settle.

This has been an ongoing training issue for 5 years that peaks and troughs.
 

foxy1

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Oh ok, that's a bit different.
Maybe you could find her another job to do if she really doesn't enjoy what you do with her?
 

BBH

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Your horse sounds the spit of mine , he was either brilliant or threw the towel down. Everything was on his terms and some rare days he would give his all but 99% of the time he gave nothing .
Riding was not a pleasure and he learnt evasions quicker than we could undo his current ones.

At the age of 9 having given up on the hope of a rideable horse he was diagnosed with a brain tumour and sadly PTS.

I still think what a total waste because he was a stunning horse who had oodles of talent but horses are expensive , time consuming and above all should be fun. I admire your perseverance but I have learnt that I wouldn't do it again.
 

Goldenstar

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A horse really has to enjoy training for dressage to be fun .
I have had both sorts and a willing partner is just so much more fun .
This may be of no help to you but if the horse describe belonged to me I would send it hunting with a large man on it two or three times a week for a season .
If it took to job I would find a home for her hunting with a young man and dare devil young lady .
 

TarrSteps

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I'm basically with Gs, although I don't think it has to be hunting necessarily. A good SJer or eventer would be another option. If she doesn't want to be a dressage horse why force her.

In the nicest possible way, if you can't alter her routine (limited hacking etc) you can't afford to try her with someone else and everything you've done thus far hasn't produced the result you want, you're a bit stuck. I know that sounds harsh but I have this conversation quite often. Wanting something from a horse isn't enough to make it so. Maybe there is something wrong with the horse, but you can't find anything and you can't fix what you can't find. Maybe you have just got into a bad dynamic but you can't will a change in your own personality any more than you can will a change in hers. I know you don't want to 'give up' but, frankly, it's not always about us. It doesn't sound like she's enjoying the process either.

So, something has to change.
 
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kirstie

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Thank you for your posts, definitely food for thought and I am going to think lot's about it.

The funny thing is, I've had quite a few comments from people expressing their pleasure at seeing a horse really enjoying her work (including my trainer and written comments from a judge at competition.) It is bizarre and maybe I've made her sound worse than she is possibly...

She generally is only bad/ protesting when I'm asking for progression (which can take several weeks). Once she has accepted what is being asked of her she seems to be happy in her work again as she is back in her comfort zone. I tend to then give her a little time (a few weeks)to consolidate and gain confidence/ strength and then its time for another lesson. Trainer is pleased and delighted with the progress made and we push forward and we start again the cycle. When I try and have easier stretchy sessions, she seems not to enjoy the relative 'freedom' and is silly, tense and spooky. I find myself picking her up and asking for something more (within her comfort zone) and voila she's amazing...

I don't know- maybe this is how she ticks? Maybe I'm deluded and she needs a change of career/ rider. I am certainly going to give it some thought. She certainly isn't unhappy in every session or even every week... There is a definite improvement in the summer. I think I am going to keep a diary as someone suggested and see if there are any patterns that I am missing... I might find something obvious.

Thanks so much to everyone who has taken the time to respond, I really appreciate it.
 

Pigeon

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I have one of these, definitely not as extreme as some of the horses described here, but his first answer, if something is worrying him, is always a resounding NO :p I love love love him, and he's cute and a very sweet person on the ground, so to be honest I'll always forgive him, but he does sometimes make me feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall! Most people who ride him get frustrated, you do have to swallow your pride a bit ;)

My other horse is extremely willing and such a trier, and having one like that really highlights my dude's attitude. But I have all the time in the world, and I just have to try and look at it as a challenge! When we do well, it feels amazing because he is so tricky :)

he resents being niggled or tickled with a long whip so i tend to carry a short whip for the first 10mins of my warm up, give him a good belt at the first sign of napping, and then put it down. The longer i carry it the more likely he is to try and drop me when i do put it down-memory of an elephant.

This really rings true. Pip hates feeling niggled or nagged, and so you have to ask something once and actually mean it, or he gets stuffy and behind the leg. I'm obviously a very amateur rider so I have to try really hard to not give too many accidental or conflicting aids, because he gets very pissed off. Also what PS said about feeding enough to make him feel energetic - but it's a fine line because he can be a bit spooky and hard feed makes it worse.

Also, he has had his hocks medicated and he's on an ulcer supplement. His way of going improved a lot after the hock injections and a little holiday, so definitely worth looking into in your case.
 

siennamum

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All of these descriptions are Coco to a T.

He also hates his neck being touched when he has it about him. When I was breaking him, I couldn't carry a schooling whip, it made him livid. I generally have always had to carry short whips - although he is better about that now. Praising him is definitely the way to go, he really tries if you are telling him how amazing he is. I won't have a fight with him if I can avoid it, not only because he goes nuclear, but because it achieves absolutely nothing. In fact having an argument before riding is pretty guaranteed to make him a sod for the next couple of hours.
Some ground work exercises really help with him, just getting him backing up and moving around and being submissive (though that's a relative term) does get him in a good frame of mind for work.

Like Pigeon, I am really fond of him despite all his quirks. He is such an attention seeker, is not interested in other people apart from me (and a friend who gives him mints), he has no malice about him and doesn't try to kill me, we just have to reach a compromise on occasion about what we are going to do. When it all goes well, he feels amazing, and he is my favourite horse to ride. 99% of the time he is really good - though I think that is because I know how to manage him.
Interestingly he has health issues, and I am sure that some of his issues are due to this.
 

DonkeyClub

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I def recommend regumate- most competition mares are impossible without it & there is just no question whatsoever of riding or competing them unless they're on the regumate- even has to be a double/ triple dose for the bad mares.
 

kirstie

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Hmmmm interesting about the regumate, I hadn't even thought of that as generally her seasons don't seem to bother her. I think it's definitely worth a trial.

She also hates whips! I tend not to ride with one, I either ride with nothing or with spurs, which she doesn't seem to mind.

I'm looking forwards to my lesson today, she'll probably be an angel!
 

Oscar

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I too was going to ask about breeding, Traks are very much like Marmite, especially the VaTout line.

Have you done a bute trial? If not why not? Most vets will recommend this as a first option if nothing untoward has shown up.

Have you done a ulcer trial? A course of GastroGuard may give you a happier horse.

And thirdly I would def try regumate, but I'd go bute first I think, speak to your vet see what they say.
 

TarrSteps

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I was going to mention the Trakehner thing - I've ridden a lot of them and get on well with them but I'm not sure they are to everyone's tastes - but didn't want to generalise. That said, they are a small gene pool with a very specific focus and I've found them one of the more 'consistent' breeds as far as temperament and type. They really do see the world a certain way. That was partly behind the suggestion she might prefer eventing, a sphere in which many Trakehners excel.

That said, it doesn't rule out a problem. By and large they are quite tough minded horses and I wouldn't out she's saying no for a reason and then soldiering on when it seems there is no option.
 

kirstie

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I too was going to ask about breeding, Traks are very much like Marmite, especially the VaTout line.

Have you done a bute trial? If not why not? Most vets will recommend this as a first option if nothing untoward has shown up.

Have you done a ulcer trial? A course of GastroGuard may give you a happier horse.

And thirdly I would def try regumate, but I'd go bute first I think, speak to your vet see what they say.

Interesting you should say this- Va Tout is the Dams Grandsire. Her sire is King Arthur, dams sire is Finley M. I do think it is very much that she is a Trakehner mare and she definitely does see the world in a certain way. Don't get me wrong, I love this horse, she is my horse of a life time, when it is going well she is amazing. I do think it is a training and personality issue, however I am open to trying a bute trial. I would be surprised if it is an ulcer issue, though again I can't see any harm in a trial of gastroguard.

I was going to mention the Trakehner thing - I've ridden a lot of them and get on well with them but I'm not sure they are to everyone's tastes - but didn't want to generalise. That said, they are a small gene pool with a very specific focus and I've found them one of the more 'consistent' breeds as far as temperament and type. They really do see the world a certain way. That was partly behind the suggestion she might prefer eventing, a sphere in which many Trakehners excel.

That said, it doesn't rule out a problem. By and large they are quite tough minded horses and I wouldn't out she's saying no for a reason and then soldiering on when it seems there is no option.

Thank you for this. She is quite tough minded, however when there have been issues in the past she has been pretty clear about it and I have not managed to ride through it.

This thread has been so helpful, I'm so glad I wrote it. I have had a few issues personally which have made me feel quite negative generally this week and Thursday evenings training session seemed worse than normal I think because I'm feeling a bit down and negative anyway. I tend not to ride if I'm in a bad mood as she is sensitive to it and doesn't like it- maybe I should have just groomed on Thursday.

I'm not sure she'd be any good at eventing, she is quite looky and spooky, slow and very scared of water! With the right rider maybe, but I have my doubts!

I'm going to persevere a bit longer with her and see how we go. I'll look into a bute trial, gastroguard etc and see what my vet thinks. I think I know what he will say but I will have the conversation.
 

siennamum

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Hmmmm interesting about the regumate, I hadn't even thought of that as generally her seasons don't seem to bother her. I think it's definitely worth a trial.

She also hates whips! I tend not to ride with one, I either ride with nothing or with spurs, which she doesn't seem to mind.

I'm looking forwards to my lesson today, she'll probably be an angel!

haha mine, prefers spurs also, but rollerball ones. he is markedly different with normal spurs. I do think he has improved my riding, and made me explore stuff I haven't had to consider on more straightforward horses, maybe she's doing the same for you, there can a be a positive!
 

TarrSteps

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I'm not sure she'd be any good at eventing, she is quite looky and spooky, slow and very scared of water! With the right rider maybe, but I have my doubts!
.

You might be surprised! One of the spookiest,most fearful horses I've ever met - bred by the Trakehner breeders I worked for at the time and pretty true to his breeding - was a successful 3* horse! As a group they were quite a spooky, tough bunch but they've produced some very successful horses - an Olympic medalist, a couple of Adv horses, a PanAm medalist. A current mare of theirs had her last foal of 4 in 2011 and did a CIC3* this spring!

None of with is really the point but I don't think "trainable" or "competitive" is the same as "easy". I think this can be a problem assessing approval scores etc - people see high trainability and ridability scores and think that translates to a "nice" horse but that isn't really what they are testing.

Anyway, moot for your purposes. I do think it's had though, if you've had a horse from scratch and got into a certain dynamic, to think of the horse in a different way. I find this even with horses I've started - I tend not to push them in the same way someone who comes to them fresh might.

It does sound like Thursday was just a bad day.
 
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