How do you progress when your horse lacks a trainable attitude?

[Oscar]

You might need to combine the bute test with GastroGuard as if she does have ulcers the bute will aggravate it. But your vet will advise.

 

[Elfen]

I've had one by va tout, not a mare but everything had to be on his terms - and routine, routine, routine, he was sharp as a pin and although talented was mostly very frustrating!. My current rising five year old gelding's dam's sire is va tout and couldn't be more different. Amenable, will do anything for you and is happy to do anything new - great work ethic - it's like he's already read the book. His Sire is by Hohenstein so a great temperament which he seems to have inherited. His maternal sister is highly talented, but does seem much much sharper than him.

 

[TarrSteps]

I've had one by va tout, not a mare but everything had to be on his terms - and routine, routine, routine, he was sharp as a pin and although talented was mostly very frustrating!. My current rising five year old gelding's dam's sire is va tout and couldn't be more different. Amenable, will do anything for you and is happy to do anything new - great work ethic - it's like he's already read the book. His Sire is by Hohenstein so a great temperament which he seems to have inherited. His maternal sister is highly talented, but does seem much much sharper than him.

He's not by Harvard, by any chance? I really like Hohenstein horses and they do seem to bring good temperament to the party.

Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-Trakehner, but if you know about the breed it's easy to see why they have the characteristics they do and one of them is toughness!

 

[Fides]

What about totally switching it up? I've done all sorts for uncooperative horses - random poles around the school and riding them in different directions (something to concentrate on rather than arguing with me), I've put up a course of jumps and schooled round them, rewarding with a pop for doing something right, I've introduced new moves from the ground on the long lines, I've long lined round courses of obstacles in the field for a 'break', I school when hacking, I've schooled bareback, schooled in a rope halter - basically anything to make it less boring and repetitive...

When you say hacking is boring-do you mean for you or the horse? Do you just amble round or do you go into it with focus? Schooling on a hack, even if the same route over and over can really freshen a horse up as they don't even realise they are working.

 

[wench]

I'm guessing you want to keep the horse?

Have you thought about getting a thermal imaging scan done on her to see if that picks up some kind of issue?

 

[kirstie]

Thanks for the replies. I have tried most things, including lots of hacking which made her worse. She is best kept in a routine with one chill day a week. I've tried incorporating jumps, cones, poles, lots of different tactics. Her favourite evasion is generally spooking and looking, so this can be counterproductive. She tries to distract me from what we are concentrating on.

Anyway, I had my lesson and she was not an angel! She showed exactly what she does, which was really helpful. Trainer basically thinks that it is a training issue, she is powerful, strong and very big and uses this against me. He thinks she would probably be too strong for him as well. He did help me work through it today to a degree but essentially he thinks she may just be too big for me. We are going to try a few different tactics over the next few months and see how we go, if no improvement I think I need to sell to someone who can ride her. I totally trust his opinion, he is kind and sympathetic in his approach. He also does not think its pain related. I feel a bit gutted to be honest but there you go. Hopefully we may have a break through. He thinks she is a 'super talented quirky type'.

I think the thermal imaging idea is great actually, just to double check so am going to look into that.

 

[Elfen]

He's not by Harvard, by any chance? I really like Hohenstein horses and they do seem to bring good temperament to the party.

Don't get me wrong, I am very pro-Trakehner, but if you know about the breed it's easy to see why they have the characteristics they do and one of them is toughness!

He's by Elfenstein - he's currently in a field in North Northumberland growing again he's standing around 17.3/18hh and has had the winter off, coming back into work properly in May - very excited people who meet him fall in love with him and don't believe he's full trak because he's so sweet natured and easy.

 

[3Beasties]

An interesting thread! My mare sounds like she has a similar attitude to PS and Pigeons horses. She is talented but has her own agenda and I have to be careful about choosing my arguments! Ask too much and she will tell me where to go in no uncertain terms; ask too little and she will quite happily trundle along offering minimum effort. I am fiddling around with feeds at the moment as I am beginning to think that her lack of willingness at times may be due to lack of energy but it will be very hard to get the balance right as I don't want her heating up and becoming even sharper, plus she's a good doer so don't want something that will pile the weight on!

Although she is difficult at times she has taught me SO much more than any other horse. She tests me and pushes me and I know will make me a better rider.

 

[Pigeon]

An interesting thread! My mare sounds like she has a similar attitude to PS and Pigeons horses. She is talented but has her own agenda and I have to be careful about choosing my arguments! Ask too much and she will tell me where to go in no uncertain terms; ask too little and she will quite happily trundle along offering minimum effort. I am fiddling around with feeds at the moment as I am beginning to think that her lack of willingness at times may be due to lack of energy but it will be very hard to get the balance right as I don't want her heating up and becoming even sharper, plus she's a good doer so don't want something that will pile the weight on!

Although she is difficult at times she has taught me SO much more than any other horse. She tests me and pushes me and I know will make me a better rider.

This!!! This is what keeps me trying haha. Just thinking of how much he's taught me

 

[khalswitz]

You might be surprised! One of the spookiest,most fearful horses I've ever met - bred by the Trakehner breeders I worked for at the time and pretty true to his breeding - was a successful 3* horse! As a group they were quite a spooky, tough bunch but they've produced some very successful horses - an Olympic medalist, a couple of Adv horses, a PanAm medalist. A current mare of theirs had her last foal of 4 in 2011 and did a CIC3* this spring!

None of with is really the point but I don't think "trainable" or "competitive" is the same as "easy". I think this can be a problem assessing approval scores etc - people see high trainability and ridability scores and think that translates to a "nice" horse but that isn't really what they are testing.

Anyway, moot for your purposes. I do think it's had though, if you've had a horse from scratch and got into a certain dynamic, to think of the horse in a different way. I find this even with horses I've started - I tend not to push them in the same way someone who comes to them fresh might.

It does sound like Thursday was just a bad day.

This. I spent a fortnight hacking out my friends 2* horse when Geoff was lame with an abscess, and he was so spooky and looky it was unreal. Even compared to my very sharp horse! However he is top notch when eventing.

Geoff isn't a patch on some of your horses described, and he's certainly improved a lot, but he's very much in the attitude of if a line is crossed, he will let me know all about it - bucking (and all four feet off the ground twisting type bucks), rearing, cat leaping and spooking. Can be triggered by waiting around too long before a class, small whizzy ponies in the warmup ring, me carrying a stick (can just about carry one but he decks me if I use it so have turned to spurs instead), me telling him off, knocking a pole... And some days he's just in a bad mood.

Some days he's totally on side, goes great, only a forgivable amount of evading/letting me know that he can't possibly expected to do what I ask just because I ask. On bad days, every single thing is a fight, to the point where he will actually trip over because he's too busy sticking his head in the air and resisting to watch his feet (he did a spectacular buck when he scrambled to his feet as well). I've learned to not approach things he doesn't want to do head on - I have to be ten steps ahead of him and manipulate him into doing what I want, and avoid any major confrontation. And being ahead of a switched on TB is hard work!! But it is worth it

He's taught me so much it's unreal - and my next horse will look a CINCH in comparison!!

 

[Daytona]

In the past 6 months I've had a total swing round of view on horses, I've always been one for sticking with it.

Having spent many years struggling with "naughty" horses, or horses I did not get along with, could not handle personally I'd just sell her if she was mine.

As long as you ruled out pain etc, if she is not doing what you want to do and youre constantly feeling disappointed, for me I'd now just cut my losses and buy something that will do what I want it to do.

I've had a bellyful of battling with these big animals, recently I feel I've seen the light.

 

[JustMe22]

ive had to teach mine to have a work ethic.
he came to me as a 4yo, having raced a few times as a 2/3yo but seriously jacked it in-wouldnt go in the stalls, wouldnt come out, kept napping and standing up and then broncing his work rider off etc etc.
he was reasonably easy to re-back but genuine forward, in front of the leg, movement was a no no and he spent about 6 months standing up in every transition.
over his 5/6/7yo years he improved but was still hugely unpredictable both at home and in the ring. He could score 65-68% one week and be eliminated or retired for napping the next.
He does the most vile manouvres, almost props to a stop with his back arched and jumps vertically off all 4 feet but travels backwards in the air and then rears and does 360 on his back legs.

I really tried to get to the bottom of him physically and mentally as an 8yo-enough was enough and i do feel ive made some big steps forward.

He's a cold, idle, backward thinking horse and he's miles better at a show if the day before is spent bombing round in a light seat canter, being encouraged to buck and squeal and mess around. I have to put some *goodwill tokens* in the pot so the next day at the show ive got a little bit of it to fall back on-if i drill him too much he will tell me quite clearly to go swivel!

he doesnt hack except on very still,hot,summer days (too sharp and dangerous almost) and isnt a huge fan of poles(refuses to jump at all really) but he's a very cocky brave horse and ive done a lot of work in the last few months using spooky objects (big tarpaulins, a tunnel of fillers with flapping bags on, umbrellas in buckets etc) to work round, trying to encourage him to peep and puff up and piaffe a bit so he learns to turn negative tension in to positive work. He likes this as it gives him a chance to show how big and brave he is and also teaches him not to nap and drop behind my leg if he is unsure about something.

he resents being niggled or tickled with a long whip so i tend to carry a short whip for the first 10mins of my warm up, give him a good belt at the first sign of napping, and then put it down. The longer i carry it the more likely he is to try and drop me when i do put it down-memory of an elephant.

he is fed like a 3 day eventer, lots of quick release enery food. He needs to feel well in himself and really *buzzy* or he isnt interested in working.

You need to find out what makes her tick an try and let her have it her way when it doesnt matter so she digs a bit deeper for you when it does. Thinking that they have to do it your way 100% of the time doesnt work with these sorts.

Mine is 9yo now, has qual regionals and area festival champs at psg, done his first inter 1 and is schooling GP.

ETA-you may never eradicate it, in his last test (inter 1) he mistakenly tried to ext canter off the corner when we should have been collecting for a piri, i over half halted and he stopped and then kicked back with both legs like "F U stupid woman what do you want"...........he came round again and stopped and thought about going up but then decided to give me another chance.
i do have to be careful to hold my hand up and let him know when its me at fault.

Sorry to thread hijack OP, but this is exactly my thoroughbred down to the smallest detail. Idle, evasive, hates being tickled with a whip (will just grind to a halt and buck, pin ears, whatever) etc etc. The only difference is that he loves jumping. He's competing at Medium but the last 4 months he's been awful and he still isn't in front of my leg, I have to push to get the movements. I've just moved him to DIY so I can have total control over his feed. I would be really grateful if you could tell me what you're feeding and how much?

OP - as above, I obviously haven't rectified the situation entirely yet with my horse. He prefers more difficult work so I almost have to trick him into the basics. I do a lot of stuff in walk first, turn on the haunches, spiral in and out etc. I'll then do something like walk piris straight into trot, but only for half a circle, then back into walk. Sort of ease him into it.

When we do go up a pace I spend a lot of time in shoulder-in, travers, leg-yield/half-pass zig zags etc so that he starts to go move off my leg without realising it, as it were. He is happier doing lateral work than me pushing him forward in straight lines initially, because he objects to being *made* to do stuff but somehow doesn't seem to twig that being asked to move sideways off my leg is not too dissimilar to going forward off it. So, I work around it, and then when his attitude starts to change I can generally ask for more collection without him objecting and throwing his toys out.

Have you tried doing something exciting like flying changes or even simple changes? Something that generally hots them up a bit. I'm just guessing but suspect she might be bored, if you spent 6 weeks just on halting. Perhaps you could benefit from trying to do more advanced work? A lot of horses seem to perk up a bit when it provides a bit more mental stimulation for them. The 101 dressage exercises book has some good ones to try if you need inspiration. Might not work at all but could be worth trying!

 

[TarrSteps]

And to add to the above, Daytona, your last horse is doing another job in different job and you're going great guns with your current horse. So neither of you were 'bad' it was just a bad fit.

 

[Daytona]

And to add to the above, Daytona, your last horse is doing another job in different job and you're going great guns with your current horse. So neither of you were 'bad' it was just a bad fit.

Yup totally , it was not meant to be, not his fault , not my fault.

Just a incorrect match. Just wished it never took me 2 years to realise it

Hey oh you live you learn.

 

[khalswitz]

Yup totally , it was not meant to be, not his fault , not my fault.

Just a incorrect match. Just wished it never took me 2 years to realise it

Hey oh you live you learn.

It's a hard thing to admit to yourself, but both you and the horse are happy and doing well now so it was obviously the right choice!!

It's the same choice looming in front of the op. How much do you put in to training etc before you decide that it isn't the right partnership? It's a tough call that only the rider can make.

 

[kirstie]

In the past 6 months I've had a total swing round of view on horses, I've always been one for sticking with it.

Having spent many years struggling with "naughty" horses, or horses I did not get along with, could not handle personally I'd just sell her if she was mine.

As long as you ruled out pain etc, if she is not doing what you want to do and youre constantly feeling disappointed, for me I'd now just cut my losses and buy something that will do what I want it to do.

I've had a bellyful of battling with these big animals, recently I feel I've seen the light.

Believe me, I'm nearly at that point!! I just want to give it one last chance and after today I am definitely feeling more positive.

I've just moved him to DIY so I can have total control over his feed. I would be really grateful if you could tell me what you're feeding and how much?

OP - as above, I obviously haven't rectified the situation entirely yet with my horse. He prefers more difficult work so I almost have to trick him into the basics. I do a lot of stuff in walk first, turn on the haunches, spiral in and out etc. I'll then do something like walk piris straight into trot, but only for half a circle, then back into walk. Sort of ease him into it.

When we do go up a pace I spend a lot of time in shoulder-in, travers, leg-yield/half-pass zig zags etc so that he starts to go move off my leg without realising it, as it were. He is happier doing lateral work than me pushing him forward in straight lines initially, because he objects to being *made* to do stuff but somehow doesn't seem to twig that being asked to move sideways off my leg is not too dissimilar to going forward off it. So, I work around it, and then when his attitude starts to change I can generally ask for more collection without him objecting and throwing his toys out.

Have you tried doing something exciting like flying changes or even simple changes? Something that generally hots them up a bit. I'm just guessing but suspect she might be bored, if you spent 6 weeks just on halting. Perhaps you could benefit from trying to do more advanced work? A lot of horses seem to perk up a bit when it provides a bit more mental stimulation for them. The 101 dressage exercises book has some good ones to try if you need inspiration. Might not work at all but could be worth trying!

At the moment she is turned out from 7.30am until about 2.30pm on improving grazing. She has 8-10lbs of good quality hay to come in to. She then has 12-14lbs of the same hay overnight- there is normally a tiny bit left in the morning. She has 1 stubbs scoop of alfa a molasses free, 1 scoop spillers high fibre cubes and 3/4 scoop of speedi beet in each feed 2x a day with 200g micronised linseed spilt between the 2 feeds, suppleaze gold joint supp in pm feed and I am just introducing forage plus winter balancer. Weight and condition wise she looks perfect. When she does really work hard, she can tire fairly quickly, so I am going to look into maybe adding oats into the equation, though she is fizzy, hot and spooky by nature so I need to be careful.

I will look into getting that book, sounds like a good idea. I added some simple changes into our session today and she really seemed to enjoy it.

I rode this morning and, following the advice of my trainer, I changed her bit to something to give me a little more influence. I dug out a waterford snaffle with a small hope that there may be a small improvement in her listening to me and I was amazed by her reaction.

She listened, didn't argue, allowed me to correct her and then I could be quiet... I was able to half halt and actually get a reaction... In short she was amazing. I praised every little thing that she did right, was quickly able to correct her and soften, she was forward into the bridle without running through it, swinging and over her back, relaxed... I could go on but you get the picture. This is all that I want to be able to do and I was grinning from ear to ear when I got off- she seemed pretty pleased with herself too. I am so pleased!

The aim I think is to keep this bit in for now, see how we go. Swap to the snaffle occasionally in the hope we can go back to that more permanently and obviously swap to the snaffle for competing until we are ready for the double. I think she prefers to be ridden in the morning as well, so I am going to try that for a while as well and see how we get on. In a perfect world, obviously I would always be in a snaffle and I am normally dubious about gadgets etc but if it means my horse listens to me, we both enjoy it and start to progress a bit, what does it matter? I think the important thing is that I am able to be soft and have her listen and if this works- brilliant!

 

[Mince Pie]

You say she has a strop when you ask for more from her? Is it worth 'sneaking' the new movements in? Say for example you wanted to teach quarters in, you would come off the corner and quietly ask for 2/3 steps of quarters in and then ride straight - almost so she doesn't notice that you've asked her to do more than normal? Hope that makes sense!

 

[Daytona]

It's a hard thing to admit to yourself, but both you and the horse are happy and doing well now so it was obviously the right choice!!

It's the same choice looming in front of the op. How much do you put in to training etc before you decide that it isn't the right partnership? It's a tough call that only the rider can make.

110% right move for both of us.

Totally agree about it being a tough call , I think the best thing you can do is seek advice from a experienced professional who knows you & your horse well if you have doubts and ask them their honest view

Are we a good partnership or would we both be better off parting ways..?

Good luck OP it's not a nice position to be in, and even though you love this horse and think it's your horse of a lifetime. From my experience it's amazing how quickly you can move on from a horse, when you find one you truely click with. I've not looked back once since moving on from my last horse. Best move I've ever made.

 

[maccachic]

Mines been challenging 7 year old been a broodmare prior. Its been rewarding and frustrating but we are getting there. I find she is bored riding in her paddock and is happier out and about, almost a different horse.

Praise is finally getting thru to her and after 9mths she is finally buddying up with me.

Had a brilliant ride yesterday at my instructors arena put a smile on my face.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Sorry to thread hijack OP, but this is exactly my thoroughbred down to the smallest detail. Idle, evasive, hates being tickled with a whip (will just grind to a halt and buck, pin ears, whatever) etc etc. The only difference is that he loves jumping. He's competing at Medium but the last 4 months he's been awful and he still isn't in front of my leg, I have to push to get the movements. I've just moved him to DIY so I can have total control over his feed. I would be really grateful if you could tell me what you're feeding and how much?

OP - as above, I obviously haven't rectified the situation entirely yet with my horse. He prefers more difficult work so I almost have to trick him into the basics. I do a lot of stuff in walk first, turn on the haunches, spiral in and out etc. I'll then do something like walk piris straight into trot, but only for half a circle, then back into walk. Sort of ease him into it.

When we do go up a pace I spend a lot of time in shoulder-in, travers, leg-yield/half-pass zig zags etc so that he starts to go move off my leg without realising it, as it were. He is happier doing lateral work than me pushing him forward in straight lines initially, because he objects to being *made* to do stuff but somehow doesn't seem to twig that being asked to move sideways off my leg is not too dissimilar to going forward off it. So, I work around it, and then when his attitude starts to change I can generally ask for more collection without him objecting and throwing his toys out.

Have you tried doing something exciting like flying changes or even simple changes? Something that generally hots them up a bit. I'm just guessing but suspect she might be bored, if you spent 6 weeks just on halting. Perhaps you could benefit from trying to do more advanced work? A lot of horses seem to perk up a bit when it provides a bit more mental stimulation for them. The 101 dressage exercises book has some good ones to try if you need inspiration. Might not work at all but could be worth trying!

he gets 2.25 scoops of havens slobbermash (dry weight) soaked overnight,. 1 scoop winergy high energy,2 scoops soaked oats and 2 mugs charnwood milling linseed. split in to 3 feeds.

he also gets half a scoop alfa a oil before work to line his stomach.

plus suppleaze gold, alcar and egusin.

 

[JustMe22]

he gets 2.25 scoops of havens slobbermash (dry weight) soaked overnight,. 1 scoop winergy high energy,2 scoops soaked oats and 2 mugs charnwood milling linseed. split in to 3 feeds.

he also gets half a scoop alfa a oil before work to line his stomach.

plus suppleaze gold, alcar and egusin.

Thank you - will have to see if South Africa has any similar feeds around and do a bit of research. The slobbermash and alfa a oil could be tricky!

 

[imr]

If you have never tried Equifeast cool calm and collected, try it.

The only other thing that sprung to mind when I read your post (and I may have misinterpreted) was that on the one hand if you give her an inch she takes a mile, and on the other hand you had a tough ride one day and gave up. Difficult horses are all different and some need to be coaxed, others need it very black and white, and unfortunately if she is that type then giving up isnt going to help - it may be a matter of being very firm and black and white in part. My mare is somewhat tricky and I used to give in much too easily thereby making my life worse. I actually dont ride if I'm too knackered to be fully on my game now.