How do you shoot a head shy horse?

[Nickijem]

A very informative thread and I hope it has made some people, who have never given it a thought, some idea of what to expect if and when the time comes for their horse.
I wasn't expecting to have my 15 year old horse pts but when he had a severe bout of colic I had no choice. He was already heavily sedated so I took him into the paddock and held him while the vet gave him the injection.
Luckily, he fell straight away and then died as I held his head. I was pleased he didn't have to be shot although if that was what the vet had recommended I would have gone along with it - anything that was the best for my beloved horse.
Also, I had him taken away to be cremated. They came with a trailer that they backed into the field then rolled my (large 16hh) horse onto a tarpaulin 'bag'. The bag was then winched into the trailer so no chains round the legs etc.
It was all so dignified. Expensive - but that's what insurance is for - they paid up to £500 for the disposal of the body.
It's horrible to think of how you'd cope when it comes to the final moment but it's good to be prepared!

 

[nicnag]

I think we can all agree that there are many opinions on this subject, a great many stories too!
I am trained to euthanase animals myself, I was involved with a study into methods of Euthanasia and ther are horror stories to be told in all the different methods. Different ways will be more appropriate depending on the circumstances, the fitness of the animal involved etc.
I have personally used both shooting by captive bolt and injection when my own horses have been put down, I had a horrific visual experience (won't say it was bad for the horse involved as I don't believe she knew about it) with one of the injections but a copybook one with the other. I think whatever method you choose to use you need to research it well so you are educated in what exactly to expect - that is where this forum is invaluable. You may find though that the method you prefer may not be the one your vet considers most appropriate so you do need to consider the guidance they offer. After all the idea here is to make it the most humane possible death. I absolutely understand that some people will choose injection as they consider it the more pleasant option on themselves, this in itself may not be a bad thing if it keeps you calmer on the day and less likely to be upsetting the horse. However this is the ending of the horses life and must be done as quickly and humanely as possible.
As for disposal I don't think it is up to anyone to criticise or belittle someone if they wish to bury their horse, cremate it or feed it to the local lions - after all it is a carcass then - blunt but there it is, despite our emotional attachments. What does it matter if you don't stay to watch them winched onto lorries? It is your choice alone to make .
Make a plan, you never know when you may need to put it in action.

 

[TequilaMist]

Haven't read all posts so sorry if repeating.
Agree with Shilasdair re stable.
Knew of one that died/pts in stable.They couldn't get body out normal route.Lets just say it didn't come out of stable in one piece.
Personall would never pts in stable if could avoid it.
I stay with mine til end(have always used injection) but not the winching onto lorry.KNow it happens but can't watch that last bit if my own horse.

 

[natalia]

Just to add to that in times of emergency PTS, or when you know its time, i find that adrenline takes over your own body, you do find that extra strength and hold it together for the animal until the jobs done, I would never want to cause an all ready suffering animal anymore undue stress, after that theres nothing wrong with a strong cup of tea and a good cry. When I had to help the vet with a friends old pony in a dire emergency a few years ago, i actually shocked myself with how i coped (this was my first equine experiance of pts and i was quite young) and how I actually didn't even feel bad about helping the vet clip fur off needle site etc, which i thought i would. i would say that if your unfamiliar with the process then type it in on you tube and watch a few being done, it will prepare you for what's to come and then there should be no fear of the unknown (which is why I think people who haven't dealt with this before get so worked up by it, you just have to remeer your horse knows nothing about it) Likewise, if i know my horse has got to be PTS, i want it done there and then, its a bit like going to the dentist, you think its going to be worse than it is and the build up to it is dreadful. This is why having an action plan is the best idea. I'm not the sort that thinks "i'll just give them one last summer or a few more weeks" this to me is worse, and i don't like thinking of putting something off for my own sake. If I'm thinking it, then its time.

 

[star]

i hope this thread has provided some food for thought for some people who seem to know not a lot about death and especially death of a large animal. it's definitely not a fluffy experience like putting a dog to sleep when it just drifts off with it's head in your lap. it's a big animal and somehow it has to get onto the floor and die. i really do think a lot of people on this thread need to go and see a horse being put to sleep, preferably by injection and by bullet before they make up their minds. i have no problem with either method and think there are pros and cons to each one and also one method suits some horses more than others.

i have thought about it quite a lot for my old boy as i want to be prepared when the time comes. for now, i have settled on sedating him myself and then having him shot. he is vet phobic, but will let me get an IV on him without really noticing so i plan to sedate him before anyone arrives on the premises and then he can be shot without knowing anything about anyone being there. i find using Somulose after a heavy IV sedation really doesn't work very well and I dont want to kill him myself and he wont let another vet near him to do the Somulose without sedation so I hope the way I have decided will be ok for him when his time comes.

If anything happens to the new boy i'd probably have him injected if possible as he's headshy, but not vet/needle shy.

Both of them would then be cremated as they'd have drugs in their systems, although i have no interest in having the ashes back. That's just a personal decision though.

I have been watching horses PTS since I was about 12 and decided I wanted to be a vet. It's never nice, but it's the last kind thing you can do for them. Unfortunately with an animal that size, practicalities must come into it.

And I wont be watching my horse get hoisted away - been there, seen it on plenty of others, I have post-mortemed many horses but I dont want to be cutting up my own horse, equally I dont want to watch him be winched away. I just dont need that memory - I dont think that makes me soft.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
Shilasdair, Another Point- the term 'Put To Sleep' is also an interpretation form the Greek *I believe* insinuating that the horse/animal was killed with as little distress and horror (not only to horse but also to owner) as possible by having the animal 'appear' to be falling asleep

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Description of sleep according to Wikipedia : Sleep is the natural state of bodily rest observed in animals. It is common to all mammals and birds, and is also seen in many reptiles, amphibians and fish. In humans, other mammals, and a substantial majority of other animals which have been studied — such as fish, birds, ants, and fruit-flies — <font color="blue">regular sleep is essential for survival.</font> A widely publicized 2003 study performed at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine demonstrated that cognitive performance declines with fewer than eight hours of sleep.

I really dislike the use of calling Euthanasia for Put To Sleep, to me sleep is something you do regularly with the intention of waking up again, we need sleep to survive, some scientist says that without sleep we die.

Most parents I know of with small children Put them To bed every evening to Sleep, I know that references to death = sleep have caused serious falling asleep problems for some children.


The fact that it 'appears' that the animal is falling asleep is no guarantee for that it is killed with as little distress and horror as possible. See my reply to MQ, the substance still used (as far as I know) when some prisoners sentenced to death is executed, has as I understand it, been used to make animals "seem to fall asleep", but further studies showed that the substance caused such pain/discomfort that it's not allowed to be used anymore on animals because it's considered to be CRUEL using it, but before that I presume that a number of animals was euthanized using that substance.

I'm not saying that bullets are better, but don't be 100 % sure that just because you hope to be able to choose euthanasia without bullets, everything will go calmly and as planned. I've heard/read about horses f. ex. having stronger hearts than the veterinarian estimated = all sorts of mess when the substances did not do what they were supposed to.

 

[somethingorother]

i just want to say thankyou to everyone that contributed to this thread. Previously i have been upset by threads debating methods used for pts but for the most part i have found the last 13 pages highly informative, interesting and i have now begun to seriously consider and weigh up all options. In fact not only have i never witnessed any horse being euthanised but i don't even have my own horse to relate it to. One day i will though, and this time will come, and i will remember eveything discussed by everyone here which will hopefully make things easier for both myself and the animal. I have previously been very anti-gun but now i can see a more balanced argument and i think i would chose whichever method was more suitable for the horse combined with the situation. The stable dilema is one i had not considered also. This bit did disturb me a bit but i'm glad as i would be prepared hopefully now.

Despite disagreements, what has been clear is how much everyone cares for their horses and want the best, i dont judge anyones decisions on the method, unless the horse is blatantly distressed or suffering and i certainly dont think it fair to judge what people do once the animal is dead.

So yes, basically thankyou

 

[kellyeaton]

i had my horse pts by lethal injection and luckly enough for her it was very quick i mean with in about 30 secs needle in down gone. there was one needle that was a combination of sedative and the leathel stuff it is a new drug called sumulose that it goes straight to the brain causing cateo arest and then shuts the rest of the body off but coz it does the brain first the horse knows nothing!

 

[Gonetofrance]

This is what happened to two horses injected here in France. It's a bit long, and was distressing.
I recently went to help someone who was having her two aged animals put to sleep. One was a horse and one was a pony. They were inseparable, and she wanted it to be as stress free as possible. I suggested the specialist vets at the Haras, but they would not travel as it was too far, and wanted the horses brought to them, which was not possible. She telephoned the vets I use for the dogs, who are generally very good and have a horse vet in the practice. I went up, and the vet arrived. I suggested he sedate them both first, so that they could be together, but not aware of what was going on. He seemed quite happy about this, and said that he hadn't euthanased many horses. I was a wee bit concerned, but I couldn't see what would go so wrong, as he was carefully measuring quantities and preparing syringes etc. And I had found him kind and efficient when dealing with my dogs.
The horse was sedated first, and was quite groggy when the pony was sedated too. It was all calm and going the right way until he gave the lethal injection to the horse. He started to stagger violently sideways, and then went up and over backwards and sideways and crashed down facing the other direction. He appeared to have had a massive heart attack. The vet was also sent flying backwards into me and the small pony. The owner was stunned as was I, and then the vet came over and administered the same to the pony. He stood stock still for a few seconds, took a step backwards and sideways and threw himself over backwards. It was horrendous. Both animals appreared to be totally rigid, but with their nostrils and ribs moving. We went away to the house for the vet to wash his hand and I asked what drug he had used. It was a drug called T61. The poor woman was really worried, and concerned that he hadn't checked that they were dead, but he did go back up and check that there was no heartbeat. And they were finally gone. So we covered them up, and tried to figure out what had gone wrong.
In the course of my time on this planet, I have held several animals to be dispatched, mostly from the huntsman who is brilliant, uses a pistol and the animals know nothing about it. I have also held horses being euthanased by injection, and some of them know something's up and fight, and some don't. But I have never seen anything quite like this.
I went back home and researched the drug. Apparently it is considered inhumane, and only supposed to be used to euthasnase when the horse is already under general anaesthetic, as it can cause death by heart attack, paralysis and suffocation. Which ties in quite horribly with what we saw. I hope and believe that the strong sedative given before the T61 will have made them out of it enough to not really know what was happening. T61 is apparently quite commonly used over here because it is cheap.
Then the unpleasant aftermath of having to wait for the bodies to be collected. It took four days for the lorry to come, this is apparently fairly common. But the weather was hot that week and the smell of decomposing flesh was heavy and cloying over the whole farm.

 

[Sooty]

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Crikey if I did that my mantel piece would be full up and look like some funeral parlour.

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Sorry, only got this far through this mammoth thread, but that has made me LOL!

 

[CVSHotShot]

[ QUOTE ]
So how does all this extensive research work, if your horse breaks a leg in the field?
Do you let it suffer while you put all your arrangements into place?

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Dubs-if you read all my posts on this topic you will see that i said if my horse had an accident &amp; was In pain &amp; had no hope of recovery, I wouldnt think twice about shooting, as it is only fair to put him out of his misery as soon as possible!

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This reads as though Googled from somewhere like Wikipedia?

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yes, I quoted it directly from wikipedia, hence the reason I put it in quotation marks...

 

[BeckyD]

Yikes daretodream, I find that awfully morbid! &lt;shudder&gt; Just goes to show, each to their own!

 

[CVSHotShot]

[[ QUOTE ]
Tia, this is how it was for me, thankfully. I groomed him and spent time with him in the sunshine until the vet came. Made the very sombre walk down to the bottom of the field, found somewhere flat and suitable and stood with him until he fell (I don't know why I am posting this, it has brought it all rushing back and got me weeping my eyes out)
The vet did a sterling job of keeping me right and talked to me throughout making sure that I kept together for Sammy and I let it all out afterwards. I helped do the practical bit of find the tarp in the garage and covering him over until the digger came and then I went and sat in the house whilst they put him in the hole. I made sure that the tractor man had dealt with horses and burial before and was assured that he would treat the horse with dignity (as far as possible) and after that I went to the site he was buried and said my good byes. I went there every year on the anniversary to talk to him and only stopped doing that after a few years.

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Law, I sat crying reading this. I think I suddenly realised that I will have to do this someday. Im not ready to let either of my boys go, &amp; Im not sure if I ever will be. I can only pray that they will go peacefully but I hope I can keep it together as well as you did.

I am going to leave this topic now as I cant even open it without crying uncontrolably lol I have turned into some kind of emotional mess!

Maybe I will have his body frozen so I can go visit him wen i want or have his body stuffed so It can sit beside me it the living room or at the table

*Runs of quickly b4 another 13pg discusion begins*

 

[Sooty]

QR - I know it is not quite the same, but whenever I have had a dog pts I have been in floods of tears beforehand, knowing what was coming - then fine as soon as the animal was dead. A dead animal looks just like that; if animals have souls then they depart and what is left is a carcass. I have seen two dead horses and whilst there is something desperately sad and somehow undignified about such a huge animal being just a lump on the ground, it somehow doesn't seem like a horse any more. Both the ones I have witnessed were tacked up when they went down and died - another little problem for the owners! I am a bit emotional at the moment as Beano is due to go for selling tomorrow so have been in tears reading this thread. It is sad to say goodbye under any circumstances, but for those of you with much loved horses, be thankful for the time you have had together and be glad it worked out.

 

[eriskaypony]

Must admit the shooting from a distance option was something I'd never heard of or considered. My brother in law is both a hunter (deer) and an international shooter so could pull it off easily. Mind you, when he puts an animal down be it dog, cow or whatever it's gun at the side of the head time so he'd probably laugh at the suggestion.

 

[Rana]

QR

Thank you for starting this thread. Interesting, if slightly emotional reading. I was particularly "interested" to read about having a horse put down in it's stable - not something I'd considered before.

I don't think I'm "pink and fluffy". I've always had a realistic plan for what to do if my horse needed to be PTS.

In the end, Posie went exactly the way I wanted her to - in her field, surrounded by friends, peacefully by injection. I spoke at great lengths with my farrier and my vet (both very experienced and knowledgable in all areas of horsemanship) about the methods and knew exactly what to expect. I also used my regular vet, who I trust implicity. There were no problems with the injection, I was with her until literally the last second (vet asked me to move away in case anything went wrong). It didn't, and he pronounced her within seconds. Perfect. She was 37 and ready to go, and I felt the injection was best for both of us. I couldn't watch the winching - husband sent me to check the foals next door. I know it happens, why stand there and watch. She was gone, I sat with her for half an hour afterwards, and there really was only a carcass left. She was communally cremated, no ashes. I just didn't like the thought of her being eaten by anything. Maybe that makes me fluffy, but there we are. I did the best I could for her while she was alive and that's the important thing.

Current horse is 27, arthritic, and I've thought long and hard about what to do with her when the time comes. She's headshy, needle shy, and vet phobic. I have worried that she might fight the injection. Decision - sedate and shoot, cremation again. I think that's what would be best for her. She can cope with the vet for long enough to be sedated. In fact, if circumstances allow, I might well use oral sedation myself, so she's pretty out of it before the vet even arrives.

I think the important thing is to consider the horse before ourselves, and have a plan. If you have time, plan everything. I had to book the vet, the removal, time of work for me and OH (I wasn't going through it alone!). Having it all in place really helped me to stay practical.

 

[Kalees_mum]

I've never had to have a horse pts before!

My old pony is 40yr this year and after having to have the vet out to her last Friday due to teeth problems he has said she may not be here hext winter! Que that got me really upset as I've owned her 9yrs! I got her when I was 10yr as a rescue ( yes not the ideal first pont but hey we live and learn ) I'll be 20 this June!

Over the last couple of years I've thought about how I want it to be done and even more so now!

She will be put down by injection at the farm where she is kept ( I would speak to yard owner/manager and see if I could have it done in the front of the green barn! where the hay and tractors are kept! as its open to lorrys to collect her body and a nice soft surface for her to drop onto ) She will be cremated afterwards with ashes back to me!

I would use my local Equine Vets and would decied between two vets that have delt with her over the last few years!

 

[alison247]

RE the story from goneto france.
My vet warned me that they can go over backwards and that is why we said our goodbyes once he was deeply sedated.
She also warned that he might take out the fence and chicken coop that was nearby.
She used somulose and still expected that it might not be textbook.
In the end she said it was seconds and he was stone cold minutes later when we came back out.
Posts have been made about injections going wrong but without any details so I expect the going over backwards is probably what was meant by going wrong.

 

[Jo C]

Re the long distance one I believe it was somebody from London Zoo who was used to darting the animals from a distance. Whoever he was he did a good job, and the pony knew nothing at all.

 

[chestnut cob]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind posting them but Im worried about upsetting people. The injection (here in Italy) consists of- A. a heavy sedative. B. a good belt of anaesthetic IV. when horse is down and well out of it then and only then, the lethal injection. The lethal IV goes under the name of 'Tanax' and contains embutramide as the main component. The horse knows nothing about his end and certainly doesnt suffer. The lethal injection paralyses his lungs then his heart and as its done when he is already unconscious.........! Its a very personal choice and a hard one to make.
Mairi.

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I haven't got to the end of the post yet so apologies if you already have but I would also be interested to see the pics, or PM if you prefer.

 

[Tankey]

Mairi did a thread with the pics on

 

[Battyoldbint]

WOW I went from tears to laughter and back again,thanks to all for a very interesting and thought provoking post, i think after reading it all i would prefer the gun when it came to it if possible

 

[The Virgin Dubble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how does all this extensive research work, if your horse breaks a leg in the field?
Do you let it suffer while you put all your arrangements into place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dubs-if you read all my posts on this topic you will see that i said if my horse had an accident &amp; was In pain &amp; had no hope of recovery, I wouldnt think twice about shooting, as it is only fair to put him out of his misery as soon as possible!


[/ QUOTE ]
That will teach me to skim through ultra long threads, I do apologise.

 

[CVSHotShot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how does all this extensive research work, if your horse breaks a leg in the field?
Do you let it suffer while you put all your arrangements into place?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dubs-if you read all my posts on this topic you will see that i said if my horse had an accident &amp; was In pain &amp; had no hope of recovery, I wouldnt think twice about shooting, as it is only fair to put him out of his misery as soon as possible!


[/ QUOTE ]
That will teach me to skim through ultra long threads, I do apologise.

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Haha no probs, have made same mistake many times