How hard is it to actually have your horse PTS.

Agree entirely alphamare. Huge difference between selling a good horse or pony, & palming off an unhealthy or old field ornament to an unknown fate. I've never been in that situation myself, but I'd rather know it had a pleasant shorter life than pass it into the unknown on the off chance someone else will do right by my cast-offs.
 
Its very easy I guess to live in an idealistic world, but where do people like these think the money comes from?
Charities are turning animals away as they have exceeded the numbers they should take, so where do the surplus go?
The "fluffy" brigade would be mortified if they saw some of the states these animals end up in, and there have been cases of REGISTERED charities allowing animals to get into such terrible conditions that other welfare charities have had to step in and euthenase to end the suffering.
Thats why mine will never be the burden of a charity. They are my responsibility and the two I have that would struggle to find homes, and could easily end up in the wrong hands will be PTS before I ever sell them.
 
:( yes I have had to make the final decision many times throughout the years, but I think it depends on the horse really how it is done, when I lived in Surrey we were very lucky to have a very good and experience knacker man, they were all put down at home with no stress or fuss whatsoever, but a few years ago I had a Arab who was rather nervous of strangers and could be silly, so I decided because of this , the needle would be better for him, he was sedated first and with the second needle he was gone, so really it depends on the horse, and of course the experience of the person who is going to do it !
 
Azmar said:
I cannot see how any vet can make that decision over the legal owner. As you say often it is more than just being able to further medicate/treat. I have made that decision in the past when I considered enough was enough for a horse to be put through. I personally would always choose the bullet, but needs must in some circumstances. We must always put the horse first and our feelings on back burner if necessary. Suffering in my opinion is far worse than a trip over rainbow bridge.
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When my horse 26 had her stroke, she lost a huge amount of condition in a couple of weeks, it was like she could chew but forgot how to swallow, my vet agreed she might recover but if she didnt show real improvement in a week he would take the decision from me and pts on welfare grounds, i was devastated.
Thankfully she started to rally round with a second course of steroids, and started eating again, that was 18 months ago and she has made a fantastic recovery, this morning she bounced out to the field in trot at the end of the leadrope, then took off up the field bucking and farting full of the joys of spring.
I have made my mind up that if she has another major event like this in her life, i will let her go, but at the time, it felt right to give her the chance, my vet agreed, but with a defined period for improvement and i respect him for that.
 
If you could have seen our old TB a few years ago, when he had abscesses in both fronts, and was very sad and sorry for himself, many would have said PTS. (In fact the junior vet first said it was lami - which I guess it kind of was, but as a result of huge abscesses!) This horse is a big big wuss when it comes to pain though, and will always reat as if the world is ending. :rolleyes:

He is now fine and dandy, and still a suspicious awld bugger if anything different is going on. :rolleyes:
 
Alphamare said:
In the other thread a vet nurse made a comment about how vets won't just PTS anymore until all the options have been utilised. Its on the last page (17) and its partly why I asked. Do they really try and make you jump through hoops when you are trying to do the best by your equine friend. Do they really think people just willy nilly PTS!?
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I haven't read all the responses but got as far as this one and wanted to respond. When Lucy got lami in all four feet many years ago. The vets took one look over the stable door and asked if I had the number for the hunt kennels. :( I had to beg them to give her a chance. Luckly she recovered. Then in 2009 she fell ill with a very very rare illness and she had to go to an equine hospital to be diagnosed. On her report it says at the end "Recomended course of action: Euthanasia" Once again I begged for her to be given a chance and I got an extra 8 months with her but sadly I lost her in the end.
On the other end of the spectrum. A friend of mines horse had colic. She had been colicing all night and was in a very bad way. I would have had her PTS in the morning when we found her in the field unable to standup. But her vets recomended surgury :eek: We had to travel the poor mare to the clinic and she died on the table :(
The difrence between me and this other person. She was insured :rolleyes: The I word is the magic word with vets as far as i'm concerned I'm afraid. I think alot of vets are reluctant to PTS if you are insured as they can make lots of money from unnecessary tests and treatments even though there will only ever be one outcome :(
Call me a sinic but that's the way I see the world. ;)
 
Alphamare said:
In the other thread a vet nurse made a comment about how vets won't just PTS anymore until all the options have been utilised. Its on the last page (17) and its partly why I asked. Do they really try and make you jump through hoops when you are trying to do the best by your equine friend. Do they really think people just willy nilly PTS!?
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For me, herein lies the real issue. As an owner, you need to make sure that you are using the best vet practice for your horse, and for you. I think the statement made above is far too general, and certainly not my experience. I've had two horses put to sleep, very different circumstances. Arguably both could have been given more treatment, but my decision was made, vet agreed with me, and that was that.

I think everyone agrees that whilst making the decision and witnessing the deed is distressing and emotional for us, the actual arranging of the whole process is simple. What I would urge others to do, is to use professionals that you trust and preferably know, and a method that you're comfortable with, and hopefully have seen used before.
 
I spent months worrying about how I would know when the time was right for my old boy - but actually when it came to it I made my mind up pretty quickly ( with my vets good advice to help)

I think you have to trust your vets - and if u think they may not have your horses best interests at heart, find another practice!
 
Alphamare said:
I was asking both questions do all the answers are very helpful to me, and hopefully others reading.

I do know as much that a knackerman PTS for a living so may have more experience doing it than a vet although with the different methods used there is still a choice there. I know this must have been asked before so thanks for going over it again for me
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If only more people did think more there could be less suffering.

You're right, a knackerman or hunt will put down any horse, you don't need permission from anyone else to do so; it can usually be done at your yard but some hunts need you to take the horse to the kennels as they don't have the facilities for transporting the body nowadays if you are not burying. They have a vast amount of experience and in spite of the job are usually very humane people that show consideration and respect for both the horse and the owner. I would use our hunt every time, failing that our knackerman before using the injection by a vet not because I wouldn't want to pay their charges but rather knowing the injection can often go wrong whereas IME, there has never been a problem with a bullet.
FWIW, all of my horses have gone this way and it has not affected an insurance pay out because it's either been done in an emergency or on vet advice and in one case a peaceful but very unexpected death in a field. I also don't have mine insured for mega bucks, just a realistic price to replace if necessary so whether that has been in my favour or not I can't say but it might have a bearing on it, they might have been unhappy to do so if insured for several thousands.

You don't need your vets permission as such as they should operate on your orders but they can and sometimes do query it if they feel there are other options left. But, at the same time, those other options do put money in their till so you need to be very sure that what they are suggesting is in the best interests of the horse. Surprisingly, many of the new vets are of the 'life at any cost' persuasion rather than actually putting the animal itself top of their priorities; they should also put their client (you) first too above their own feelings; their feelings or personal view should not come into it at all IMO.

On the matter of insurance, if the horse is subject to a claim then the company need to give their permission by taking advice from your vet. It has been known for some companies to refuse permission, they'd rather carry on treating so if PTS is your desire then you need to convince your vet on this if you want/need the claim paid out (and you don't insure unless you need to, a catch 22 situation!) I know some people that have foregone the payment to ensure their horse is put down at the right time rather than made to endure more treatments on a company say so.
Obviously if horse is not insured then you have nobody else to answer to except yourself.

Hope that's helped a bit. I'm glad my thread has provoked such a reaction TBH.
 
Yes the magic word 'insurance', if I'm asked if the animal is insured, I always tell them, its for me to know and for you to find out, thats saves quite alot of money !
 
I have not yet had to make the decision to pts or witnessed it but when the time comes I certainly won't let any animal suffer.
I have read this thread with interest, when my partners dog was pts through cancer they didn't stop us but wanted to prolong the dogs life by using pain killers for a matter of months, I wouldn't use that vet again as I didn't feel he had dogs best interest at heart.
I don't like to ask but what do people mean when they say give the horse to the hunt?
 
Lol Nellie, my vets know the only ones insured for vet cover are any out on loan so they know better than to pull that one! You're right though, it makes a huge difference to the treatments you will be offered if horse is covered for vet fees.
 
As above - use the best vet you know of (word of mouth can be useful), follow your gut feeling - you know your horse - and get a second opinion if in doubt.

I have lost 2. One was pts with a ruptured collateral ligament. He was still chronically lame after 7 months of box rest. It was before MRI was commonly used and my lovely vet actually said "get an MRI - not to find a cure but to get an accurate diagnosis, if you pts without knowing why it will always haunt you".
Our insurance paid up for the scan but felt it was not a "life threatening injury" so were reluctant to pay out. We did it anyway and my vet fought our corner and we got a payout on his full value thanks to him though we had to wait a while before we knew. If we had waited for them to agree we would have put him through more time of pain so decided to pts and take our chances on the money.

The second had multiple problems including PSD SI problems and collateral ligament strain/changes probably due to the other problems. He was retired aged 9 from competition and pts aged 12 when he suddenly became very lame again. Again my vet had already agreed to pts in the early autumn but unfortunately the horse chose to go earlier.... Insurance was not an issue as he had run out of everything and had multiple exclusions so there was no financial incentive at all to pts.

My vet has surprised me more than once by saying "if you want a riding horse and you cannot afford to keep a field ornament as well I have no objections to pts. Horses cost a lot and need to be enjoyed. Give me a ring if and when you feel ready". I found this attitude quite helpful though a friend of mine who was given the same "chat" was deeply shocked.

The decision was very very hard both times but the deed was very peaceful and there was a sense of relief as well as guilt and grief afterwards.

So is it hard to pts? Yes! But in my experience vets have been extremely supportive of any decisions we have come to but have continued treatments for as long as we have felt fair.
 
Swift00 said:
I have not yet had to make the decision to pts or witnessed it but when the time comes I certainly won't let any animal suffer.
I have read this thread with interest, when my partners dog was pts through cancer they didn't stop us but wanted to prolong the dogs life by using pain killers for a matter of months, I wouldn't use that vet again as I didn't feel he had dogs best interest at heart.
I don't like to ask but what do people mean when they say give the horse to the hunt?
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It seems harder than ever to find a vet that has an animal's interest as the first of their priorities which is very sad. I'm sorry about your dog, it's never easy.

By 'giving' to the hunt is an old term but it means the hunt will keep the body after they have shot it which will then be fed (not all parts, just those suitable) to the hounds. In the past, most hunts did this as a free service to their farmers, subscribers and member with a small charge for anyone else but nowadays most of them charge everyone regardless although those that don't normally have anything to do with the hunt will pay more. They can also just put down for you if you decide to bury the body at home.
 
Swift00- giving them to the hunt comes from the days where a huntsman would have shot the horse then it go to the hounds. Now afaik a lot of horses can't be used by the hunt but they will still do the deed for you. Difference is mainly that if you prefer the bullet a huntsman (or knackerman) has more skill with this method than a modern vet who usually only has experience of the injection.
 
I did not know about needing insurances permission to put an animal out of its misery. I am glad I know. One more reason not to bother what with all the exclusions and other issues. We just put aside the premiums we would have paid into a vet "fund"
I don't believe in operation on a horse or on prolonged (longer than a week or two) box rest. These are my personal opinions but I do know they will influence how far I would take treatments.

I got a talking down too on the other thread because I don't believe in letting a horse suffer and a person was of the opinion that I didn't know what I was doing or talking about. I have made plans for my horses, long term and contingency so I they need me to make a decision for them I can, and fast. I believe it's responsible horsemanship to be prepared so I am greatful for you all who have shared your knowledge.
 
Amymay, But if your horse is insured then surely you would be making a claim? So would need their permission? Or am I missing something? Thanks
 
Alphamare said:
Amymay, But if your horse is insured then surely you would be making a claim? So would need their permission? Or am I missing something? Thanks
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I've never made a claim on a horse I've had put down - as it wouldn't fit within the remit of what the insurance company would pay out on.
 
Over the years we have had two mares PTS. The first was in her late 20's and was going downhill, we couldn't keep the weight on her and didn't feel it was fair to let her go through another winter. She was shot, and went to the hunt, and I felt guilty, sick to my stomach about it for ages. Although I know she didn't suffer, it felt like such a violent end and she deserved better ( in my opinion.)

The second was only a few years ago, again an old and much much loved retired mare who kept getting ulcers in her eyes which were very painful for her, and she hated us using eyedrops on them. Our long term vet recommended putting her to sleep after over a year of ongoing treatment, as her quality of life was dwindling and the mare was going downhill. We had her injected, she was very relaxed, eating an apple when she just dropped. We had her cremated and we buried her ashes and planted an apple tree there. Our vet was fantastic through out, supportive ( and cried along with us as we all bawled our eyes out afterwards.)

I think putting a horse to sleep is a very personal thing, these are animals we love so much, part of the family, and it is the ultimate responcibility knowing when to let them go.
 
Heartbreaking!!!

Have had to make the desicion just over a year ago and it was horrible :(
Obviously had ponies put down when i was growing up but the first time i made the desision on my own.. made easier by the fact I knew i was doing the right thing.
 
I had always intended to get the numbers and info together in a folder so when the time came I could make an informed descision, though it wise with two horses in their 20's. As it was the descision had to be made in an emergency for a 7yo. There was no doubt for us that we had done the right thing - we had vet PTS and cremation, and whilst heart breaking it was straightforward and peaceful and we knew we had done our very best for our girl.

I am sure it will be a harder decision for the old girls. In fact one of them had the vet today as she is not coping with her COPD and needs inhalers and vet is suggesting trying 1/2 bute to keep her hacking sound. I guess we may have to make the final descision sooner rather than later :(
 
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I find it agonising. With my old Section D, she came down with severe colic, and was told surgery or PTS. She was PTS, and I had to make that decision as a young girl, with the vet's science and non horsey parent's morals.
It was safer, as she would not tolerate box rest in the slightest, and her recovery rate was quite slim.

When Meg was very ill with colic the other month, the vet gave us three options:

-Surgery
-Continue treatment
-PTS

She told us she wouldn't personally go for surgery, too expensive and risky for Meg's size and age, and that she could be on 6 months box rest and have a grim prognosis anyway.
It was very tough, to decide whether to keep her pain controlled and keep testing, or call it a day with her. She owes nobody anything at the end of the say.

We actually stuck with the treatment and she's made a complete turnaround and fully recovered, but it was nice to know the vet wasn't arsed about how much money she could squeeze out of us.
As we were panicking about the bill, she actually told us that sometimes, vets forget they've done an abdominal flush etc :) Such a lovely lady.
 
My mare is also her her 20,s she is currently sound as a pound and still regually hacked out, but I know she cannot go forever. My insurance told me that if the horse in question was suffering the vet could PTS immediatly on humane grounds, I think its when its a planned pts you have to inform your insurance.
I have thought long and hard about what method I would choose for my horses and injection will be the way I go, horses are put under for operations everyday and I dont see that as distressing well not in a painful way. Its surely only a overdose of anersetic ? .........well thats what I believe, its the only way I can get my head around it.
 
Alphamare said:
Amymay, But if your horse is insured then surely you would be making a claim? So would need their permission? Or am I missing something? Thanks
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I had my horse PTS almost 2 years ago....the vet strongly suspected strangulating lipoma...he was in pain and being aged 22, a git to travel and stressy with box rest I decided I didn't want him to go through major bowel surgery and had him PTS.

The vet agreed it was in his best interests...insurance didn't want to pay our on his death initially- they would have rather paid out for the operation which actually would have cost them more.

I chose to do what I thought right for my horse- he would have suffered more going into surgery IMO.

The vet strongly believed he was better being PTS too...so she wrote to the insurance company and they did actually pay out in the end. TBH...at the time I didn't care whether they would or wouldn't- I just wanted what i thought best for the horse.
 
Of course it's hard, no one really wants to have to make that decision but for the good of the animal. I have had to lose several over the years, it doesn't get any easier but always for the right reasons, ie severe lami, chronic illness or what ever. For your own benefit choose a time when they look as good as they can be under their own circumstances and you will remember them that way, the last I saw of my broodmare was her with head up and intently watching something up the field, she looked lovely and that's how I remember her. From her point of view she was badly arthritic, had a traumatic last foaling and being a TB, was not coping well at all with the weather, couldn't stand in and as my land was heavy clay, couldn't live out either, the choices for me were few, she was a funny little mare, gifted to me as a poorly foal and she had a lovely life, I would not have passed her on to anyone else. In the end of the day you are in control and it's down to your personal circumstances/choice, horses don't have the understanding of life expectancy, don't be swayed by other people's opinions it's entirely your decision. I have always used the local hunt kennels rather than a vet as they can also remove the carcass. They have been quick and considerate towards the horse and have no emotional attachment that the vet might have had to that particular horse.
 
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